Research Says Wine and Cheese Don't Match

[jeroen_kb]

Has anyone read about this one? I'm not sure I agree, but if the 'experts' say so

BBC news

[Csaville]

Don't tell any French people... they'll freak

[carswell]

While some cheeses pair well with some red wines, many don't. It's a different story with white wines, however, and a lot of sommeliers, restaurateurs and cheese experts (even French ones) recommend them instead.

[JohnL]

Has anyone read about this one? I'm not sure I agree, but if the 'experts' say so

BBC news

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The piece by the BBC referenced is dead on!

For years, I thought I was a freak who just didn't get it..

Over and over I tried dozens of different cheeses with dozens of wines and

in most every instance I found that the cheeses "dulled" my palate making it less sensative

to the flavors of the wine. In most every case, the cheese overpowered the wine and dominated.

Then I attended a wine tasting with Robert Parker who remarked that he found few cheeses that enhanced the taste of wine stating that he believed the fat in cheese was the main culprit as well as the tannins in the wines.

I also heard the same thing from Georges Perrier the much respected chef of Philadelphia's Le Bec Fin. Ureeeka! I was not alone.

Most cheeses work better with white wines--especially white wines that have good acidity. Cheese also works well with Beers, fortified wines, sweet wines.

The quest for a perfect union between red wines and cheeses is IMOP a hopeless journey. There are many experts who disagree. I find Max McCalman's suggestion to slosh red wines with cheese in one's mouth--thus gaining a whole is better than the sum of the parts effect-- to be wishful thinking. (I grant Max does know cheese).

I also believe that drinking "coarse" --out of balance red country wines-- so called "picnic wines" is ok with cheese.

I prefer beer, sweet wines (white or red) and fortified wines (Sherries, Ports etc).

last-dry whites can be ok--depending upon the cheese.

but hey

that's just me........(and Robert parker and Georges Perrier)

[docsconz]

Artisanal Cheese Shop in NYC has wine pairing recommendations for their various cheeses on their website. Quite a few if not most have recommendations with white or sweet wines. I always used to think that cheese meant red wine. It is only relatively recently that I have discovered otherwise.

[SBonner]

As they say in the wine trade "Buy on an apple, sell on cheese". I think the BBC article makes sense if you are professionally buying wine rather than enjoying wine. At wine tastings I never nibble on cheese because it has an affect on your taste buds but at home a slice of cheese and a glass of wine is a perfect end or start to a meal.

Cheers,

Stephen

Edited January 19, 2006 by SBonner (log)

[eipi10]

Great post. I've always thought that the creamy milk-fat insulates my tongue. I was surprised the researchers thought it was the protein. To test which is the case, it would be interesting to try a lower fat cheese like a mozzarella or parmigiano reggiano. I think the effect would be greatly subdued with parmigiano reggiano and a big red.

I think this also explains why white and dessert wines pair more easily with cheeses. The tongue only senses basic flavors--sweet, salty, sour, bitter. White and dessert wines have heavy sourness, sweetness, even saltiness (e.g. minerals in Chablis) that can still register through the dulled tongue.

Edited January 19, 2006 by eipi10 (log)

[Country Cook]

I buy mostly cheap wines and I generally don't taste the subtilties anyway so what I prize are the combinations. A strong red like chianti or shiraz with parmaggiano reggiano or stilton are my favorites, no article will disuade me from that notion.

[hjshorter]

Count me as one who doesn't much care, but at every cheese tasting I've attended white or fortified wines and beer are always recommended over red.

Fortified wine is a good choice. Most people serve whites before reds during dinner. If cheese is served after dinner port is a more natural follow up to a big red than switching back to white wine.

[Busboy]

For those of us who spend the majority of our oenological hours drinking wine, as opposed to tasting it, esoterica like that in the article is irrelevant. Wine and cheese go wonderfully together, therefore, we will continue -- in our blissful ignorance -- to pair them promiscuously, in a bizarre variety of permutations, as often as possible.

If asked to sit in judgment at a tasting, we do, however, promise to restrict ourselves to water crackers.

[joey madison]

This study elicits two reactions from me: "duh" and "this study doesn't really apply in the real world".

My hunch is that any strongly flavored food, especially high fat foods, would deaden the taste of a food that followed. You don't see delicate consummes following a hearty spicy barbecue.

But in a typical dining situation, how often are you going to eat a strong cheese, followed by a red wine. Where does the fruit that comes on the cheese plate play in? Ever have a bit of wine before tasting the cheese? What about cheese plates that focus on a specific region or style of cheese. What about those meant to be eaten from mildest to strongest?

It would be interesting to see the same study performed in reverse. Would drinking wine before tasting the cheese enhance the taste of the cheese?

[Daniel Rogov]

One does tremble in fear at the possibility of disagreeing with the BBC but what the heck..... Here's a piece I wrote a few years ago:

The custom of serving wine with cheese has been popular with peasants at least since the days of Homer. It became the rage among the smarter set only when King Louis XVI of France stopped for refreshments at Varenne where he enjoyed a fresh Brie cheese taken together with bread, butter and a dry red wine. From that day until the present, there have been few treats more sophisticated than the combination of wine and cheese.

Which wine goes best with which cheese is very much a question of personal taste. The truth is that there are so many wines and so many cheeses that it would take an encyclopedia to list and pair them all together. Wine is often at its best with cheese but not all wines go with all cheeses. Just as with other foods, certain cheeses are best suited to certain wines. Red wines, for example, are generally considered best with most cheeses, but whites go especially well with goats' milk cheese and cooked cheese dishes.

The following table may prove useful in selecting the proper wines for the proper cheeses. The list is based on a combination of my own experiences, the writings of English wine critic Hugh Johnson, French restaurant critic Robert Courtine and American gastronome and food writer Craig Clairborne .

Especially full bodied and powerful reds Blue cheeses such as French and Danish blue, Gorgonzola, Roquefort and Stilton; soft goats' milk cheese

Medium to full bodied red wines Brie and Camembert, Gorgonzola, Parmesan

Medium bodied reds Munster, Edam, Port Salut, Emmenthal

Fruity and light reds Cantal, cream cheeses

Light dry reds and whites Goats' and sheeps' milk cheeses, young Cheddar, cooked cheese dishes

Robust and full bodied white wines Gruyere and Cheddar

Rose and medium bodied whites Gouda, Port Salut, Herbed Cheeses

Sweet dessert wines Parmesan, sweet Gorgonzola, Cheddar, hard or soft goats' milk cheeses

When NOT to serve cheese and wine together

The only time when wine should not be accompanied by cheese is at a wine tasting. Because cheese smoothens the rough taste of certain wines, especially rough reds, the cheese tends to over-emphasize the value of the wine and gives a false impression of its true quality. I often receive invitations to taste wines at wineries. I always smile inwardly when there is cheese placed on the table at such tastings for it may mean that the winery is trying to hide a fault in their wines.

And let us not forget the dictate of Brillat-Savarin, perhaps a bit chauvinistic but it does make its point: "A dinner without a cheese course has something clearly akin to a woman with only eye"

Edited January 20, 2006 by Daniel Rogov (log)

[JohnL]

Has anyone read about this one? I'm not sure I agree, but if the 'experts' say so

BBC news

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I think it is becoming evident that the beliefs about Red Wine and cheese

pairing are being rethought.

Regardless of our personal preferences there is at least a debate underway.

add to one side of the debate--Michel Roux (chef at Le Gavroche in London)

In his recently published book "Matching Food and Wine..." he notes the problems with red wine and cheese and even suggests that the notion be thrown out completely.

--there is a history of the concept of red wine and cheese as a good combination (Mr Rogov notes this eloquently in his post).

My own experience led me to question this. I am seeing more and more agreement with my belief that most cheeses do not compliment most red wines. (there is now some science to confrim this).

I also realize that just as I came to my beliefs via my own experience--there will be those who have a different belief based upon their experience.--the science IMOP is strong but not definitive yet-- and there are plenty of respected people who hold the opposite opinion.

In the end one will either agree or disagree and proceed accordingly.

Many beliefs go in and out of fashion in the food and wine world and I am curious to see where the consensus goes regarding this one.

[The Hersch]

A team of 11 expert tasters found their palettes dulled when they ate a range of strong and mild cheeses, before eight red wines of varying quality.

I see this error in online forums like this one all the time, and it's no big deal, as most who post in such places are not professional writers, but I would expect better of the BBC. A palette is the board a painter holds and mixes colors on, and by extension the range of colors used. The roof of the mouth, and by extension the sense of taste, is the palate.

[Rebel Rose]

Eating cheese with wine completely wipes out most of the finer nuances in a layered, complex wine. Traditionally, it's thought to be the thick oils and proteins in the cheese which coat the tongue. Chocolate has the same effect--many winemakers detest the thought of pairing a fine cabernet or merlot with chocolate in the tasting room. The oils and heavy sugar content dull the palate. Oils override deeper flavors and silky textures in wine, so the taster perceives only the sharper acids and brighter fruit nuances.

Having said that, one of my favorite moments in winter is when all my boys (SO included) are gone on a ski trip, and I can sit cross-legged on the floor watching a suspense movie with a plate of homemade chocolate chip cookies and a really expensive cabernet. (Pinot noir for martial arts, and sauvignon blanc with brie for chick flicks.)

Olives and vinaigrettes are also death to many wines. The acids pucker your palate, so that when you taste the wine, all you can perceive in comparison are the dustier, fattier flavors and phenols. The bright, acid-driven fruit nuances are lost. (Most olives are very pickled-tasting, but if you have the good fortune to taste some homemade salt-pressed, rinsed-for-weeks olives with pure, sweet, nutty meat, that can be a very pleasant experience with wine.)

Food pairings are like marriage. Never perfect, but a lot more exciting.

[Nicolai]

Let me put it this way.

The idea of cheese and wine is not to glorify the wine but to enhance the cheese degustation.

I will gladly have some Bucheron /Camembert or Tete de Moine with a Beaujolais nouveau.

But it would be heresy to have anything with a Cheval Blanc except une fine main blanche!

Edited January 26, 2006 by Nicolai (log)

[jennahan]

As both a lover of cheese and wine, my favorite lazy-day supper dish is a cheese plate. THe problem I have is one which Daniel Rogov pointed out...different cheeses are enhanced by different wines (I don't think I would say that different wines are enhanced by different cheeses, though). I agree that the most versatile wines are white (actually, my favorite wine pairings are with champagne and Jurancon). Thus I find myself with several small glasses of different wines to accompany my selection of cheeses.

I do disagree with Daniel about the full bodies reds and the blues, though. I find that strong blues like Stilton, Roquefort, and Gorgonzola do best with a sweet white. I actually prefer the combination of Jurancon with Stilton over the common port/stilton.

[foodie52]

Speaking of olives, I went to an Barnier olive tasting last night : the sherry I sipped paired with the olives beautifully

[S_tran]

It seems to me that the researchers are just generalizing the cheese and wine pairings and just randomingly pairing various types of wines to various types of cheeses. The researchers should have had more insight to what they were doing before they started...

[mangosteen]

Go busboy! I agree whole-heartedly. I would also like to reinforce S-tran's point. We must be critical of information, even when it is presented by a somewhat ("The classic wine and cheese party should become a thing of the past, if US research is to be believed."??) objective source such as the BBC.

In order to extrapolate a study's conclusions the study sample must be representative of the population it is sampled from. In this case I would not consider the 11 panel members (mostly, if not all graduate students) necessarily representative of the general population of wine drinkers, the cheeses selected not representative of the cheeses typically chosen in fine wine and cheese pairings (mozzarella or Stilton with Pinot Noir?), nor the wines representative of all wines or even all red wines used in traditional wine and cheese pairings. Most people do not randomly choose wines and cheeses to pair together so the population of wines and cheeses might more appropriately be classic, traditional or least previously documented wine and cheese pairs.

I know some of the details of this research which make me sceptical of the far-reaching conclusions stated in the article. In general, much of the research done in the Viticulture & Enology department at UC Davis is based on wines donated by generous wineries. We did/do not have the budget to go buy bottles of Sauternes or Jurancons to include in a study. Dr. Hildegard funded the purchase of cheeses but these were inexpensive Mozzarella, emmental, etc, NOT farm-made Camembert, Roquefort or Humbolt Fog. The cheeses were stored from one week to the next by vacuum-packing. Already, all of these factors do not make for ideal conditions, but at no point did they even attempt to include a classic wine and cheese pairing such as a strong salty blue cheese and a Sauternes.

Finally when I pair wines and cheeses I am looking for a synergistic effect. It is obvious, and even desirable, that the cheese will affect our perception of the wine. Classically, fat globules will coat the salivary proteins in the lining of your mouth and interfere with their binding by tannins, making a red wine appear less astringent. A cheese course at the end of a meal is not meant to be a forum for an objective evaluation of a wine.

Concluding from this study whether or not one should serve wine and cheese together is missing the point of the research. Dr. Hildegard states "The research wasn't about bad or good combinations. We were instead looking at cheeses that may or may not affect the flavour of the wine." The conclusion that cheeses, particularly strongly-flavoured cheeses, do affect the flavour and mouth-feel of red wine should not be surprising. Making broader conclusions than that is not possible based on the reasons stated above.

This study is just one of a whole series that Dr. Heymann is hoping to do with wines and cheeses and other foods. I feel that there is definite value in these types of studies; we just have to be careful how far we extrapolate the conclusions. American public agencies do not support alcohol-related research so UC Davis' wine research is all done with private funding (compare with the Australians). I'm sure if any of you out there are interested in helping to support research on (food and) wine the Viticulture & Enology department at UC Davis would be more than happy to hear from you.

Viticulture and Enology

Wickson Hall

UC Davis

Davis, CA 95616

Thanks for letting me get my 2 cents in.

Cheers,

Lisa

M.S. Viticulture & Enology

[Rebel Rose]

Whew. That's a relief! (I was afraid the next step would be the BBC declaring that pasta and wine should never be paired.)

Thank you for your insight into the study, Lisa, and welcome to eGullet. It's an interesting note that UC Davis students and staff are pursuing food and wine research on their own dime.

[M.X.Hassett]

Is not there a phrase "sell on cheese, buy on ???"

[Busboy]

They got it wrong, says study's author, here.

All eight wines suffered a noticeable decrease in the intensity of their aromas and flavors on account of the cheeses. However, contrary to what the New Scientist headline suggested, the cheeses did not diminish the ability of the students to distinguish the better wines from the rotgut.

[JohnL]

They got it wrong, says study's author, here.

All eight wines suffered a noticeable decrease in the intensity of their aromas and flavors on account of the cheeses. However, contrary to what the New Scientist headline suggested, the cheeses did not diminish the ability of the students to distinguish the better wines from the rotgut.

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Actually, IMOP, the Slate piece gets it "wrong."

What we seem to have here is a case of journalistic "debunking" gone amok!

The slate reporter seems intent upon going after the New Scientist (that headline really seems to irk him). Unfortunately, the writer contradicts himself in the very quote used above.

"All eight wines suffered a noticeable decrease in the intensity of their aromas and flavors on account of the cheeses."

After that conclusion, who cares about the accuracy of the New Scientist Headline?

What wine lover would not be concerned that "well the cheeses diminished the wines aromas and flavors." and then consoled with: "but hey I can still tell that the wine is not rot gut."????

Food and wine pairings should follow a simple rule: "first do no harm." In my experience there are few cases where the food and wine work together to create an experience where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

So most successful pairings involve one item (either the wine or the food) complementing the other. One tends to shine a bit more than the other. Basically, they work together.

All these studies seem to be indicating is what many (myself included) have discovered through our own experiences. that is many cheeses (not all) have a tendency to "dull" the palate to the nuances of a fine red wine. In most cases the cheese dominates the wine somewhat.

So, I believe that it is perfectly fine to drink a red wine with cheese but the optimum red wine is usually a wine that has something going for it to prevent the cheese from overwhelming it.

Like --high acidity, residual sweetness, intense fruitiness, high alcohol etc etc etc.

Wines most call "rustic" seem to do better with cheese.

If I have a fine, subtle and complex red wine I avoid drinking it with most cheeses.

I think that this is all the study indicates and there are many folks who would agree.

As always, most people should try different wines with different cheeses and decide for themselves what works and what doesn't.

And, as usual, the press tends to "overheat" and confuse most issues. The journalists would be advised to do just a tiny bit of background research before they start their "debunking."