Philly... good food neighborhoods?

[hathor]

I second the vote for Northern Liberties. Lot more room for growth. I'd even edge over to Fishtown for more bang for the buck.

[ohmyganache]

Good news for Northern Liberties! We're looking at a spot at 614 2nd street in February, where Aden Restaurant is currently located. What are some thoughts on this space???

[TarteTatin]

Sounds great!

It's a block north of Spring Garden.

Good location, location, location...

Next to a coffee shop and a sushi restaurant.

We'd totally welcome you here!

[KatieLoeb]

Good news for Northern Liberties!  We're looking at a spot at 614 2nd street in February, where Aden Restaurant is currently located.  What are some thoughts on this space???

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So what's happening to Aden? Are they closing or moving? If they're moving is it because the location isn't that great? Worse yet - are they closing because there wasn't enough business in that neighborhood? Something to think about.

Northern Liberties is still an "up and coming" 'hood and lacks the walk by traffic that you'd get in a more commercial/residentially mixed neighborhood, or more upscale residential neighborhood that houses the sort of clientele that would welcome an artisan bakery. I don't know too much about running an artisan bakery, but I do know you need some walk-by traffic/impulse purchasers. It might be worth the higher rent in a more commercially busy area to guarantee yourself that traffic. Keep looking in Old City, Society Hill, Queen Village, Fairmount, Grad Hospital, Rittenhouse Square and Fitler Square. Sit in your parked car for a little while in front of an empty commercial space to see the difference between those neighborhoods and Northern Liberties.

[rlibkind]

What Katie said -- the foot traffic just isn't there in Northern Liberties. She offers a very practical suggestion about staking out that neighborhood and comparing it to others.

An observation: a high-end dessert consultant/caterer in town, Flying Monkey Patisserie, has decided to go the retail route and will be replacing one of the current purveyors at the Reading Terminal Market. This is an exceedingly high traffic location (center court, no less), though rents are below market. We'll see whether this sweet simian soars or sinks, though I think its chances are fairly good; other than limited offerings at one other vendor, Andros, there isn't much in the way of French patisserie; at the RTM it's either sfogliatele, shoo fly pie or the handful of solid but far from refined sweets at Le Bus or Metropolitan. (I believe baking will be done at another location, so Flying Monkey will have two rents due each month.)

[rlibkind]

Additional Northern Liberties observations:

Once upon a time this was one of the centers of the city's commercial food industry (just look at all the meat hook rails). Very little remains. (A few caterers are still there, including Frog Commisary).

When I first ventured to Northern Liberties nearly 20 years ago (my future spouse lived there) there were two bakeries: The Fiddler and Kaplan's. The Fiddler was a classic Jewish-style cake shop with outposts in the 'burbs; indeed, I was told it eventually morphed, under different ownership, into what is now the Classic Cake Shop, a small locally-owned chain. It is not, however, in Northern Liberties anymore.

Kaplan's is still there on N. 3rd Street, primarily a baker of rye bread and assorted other rolls and Jewish-style bread products, though last time I stopped by (and it's been a few years) you could buy tea cakes (scones) and other sweet rolls at their retail corner outlet.

[KatieLoeb]

Bob:

Thanks for backing me up. I think you understand what I'm trying to explain.

ohmyganache - I am by no means trying to piss in your Wheaties here. I'm just saying that Northern Liberties is still a less upscale neighborhood with lower housing and rent prices. While that's a great thing for investing in residential real estate and watching your property values start to climb, I'm not sure you want to or can afford to wait for the area to house enough potential customers for a commercial venture. The reason folks are buying real estate in that neighborhood is because they have already been priced out of the more centrally located neighborhoods. If they're already spending every dime on their mortgage, I doubt they'll be buying your products on a regular enough basis for you and your partner to live off of. You need to have regular customers and lots of them - not just folks that stop in for "special occasion" goods or croissants for Sundays. There are several good restaurants in that area, but I'm not sure there's enough of a market for a dessert only place to entice those folks to walk over to your place for dessert. I'm not sure that those restaurants cater to the same clientele you would. Surely there's some cross-over, but is it enough? Are the eGulleteers that love the Standard Tap for it's wonderful food the primary customers or are the folks that go to the Tap for a reasonably priced pint of good beer or a few cocktails their primary customer? Are the pint/cocktail drinkers the sort that would buy upscale pastry? How many of them actually live in the neighborhood?

I know TarteTatin wants to kill me now, but I stand by my assertion that Northern Liberties will not have enough foot traffic to maintain an artisan pastry shop for long, as least as I have understood the concept ohmyganache has explained. The sort of shop I'm envisioning needs to be where the upscale shoppers live and work, and that's closer to Center City. If ohmyganache wants to do primarily commercial baking and supply restaurants and caterers wholesale with a small retail space out front, then the Aden spot would be fine for that. If the primary focus of the business is going to be consumer retail then I think the Northern Liberties location is not the best choice.

[herbacidal]

I would agree with Katie as well about Northern Liberties.

In my opinion, people overall paid more in Northern Liberties than in the Art Museum area which is why I recommended the Art Museum area. This is anecdotal and is a generalized opinion.

If I lived there, I could see wanting a bakery on a personal level.

I'm just not sure if my own needs and wants would be consistent enough with a high enough percentage of the neighborhood's population.

Combine the relatively similar population demographics in all of the outlying Central Philadelphia neighborhoods with where existing bakeries are located (and my opinion that Old City, and the main part of Center City are inappropriate for existing saturation, real estate costs, etc.) my opinions about real estate prices, and random other data, I concluded that the Art Museum area would be where I personally would decide to locate such a bakery, were I to choose such a venture.

[MarketStEl]

Northern Liberties is still an "up and coming" 'hood and lacks the walk by traffic that you'd get in a more commercial/residentially mixed neighborhood, or more upscale residential neighborhood that houses the sort of clientele that would welcome an artisan bakery.  I don't know too much about running an artisan bakery, but I do know you need some walk-by traffic/impulse purchasers.  It might be worth the higher rent in a more commercially busy area to guarantee yourself that traffic.  Keep looking in Old City, Society Hill, Queen Village, Fairmount, Grad Hospital, Rittenhouse Square and Fitler Square.  Sit in your parked car for a little while in front of an empty commercial space to see the difference between those neighborhoods and Northern Liberties.

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Northern Liberties has been up-and-coming for just about as long as I've lived in this city, and I moved here in 1983.

Sort of reminds me (switching passions momentarily) of the witticism about the monorail: "The monorail is the transportation system of the future. Always has been, always will be."

I'd second Katie on her suggestions, but add that since Metropolitan Bakery sold their original retail shop on Pine Street's Antique Row, Wash West has also been without an artisan bakery of its own. Yes, many of us can go up to their store in the RTM, where there's also a LeBus outlet, but I know that there are some Wash West folk who are not so enterprising.

And I don't think Whole Foods' in-store bakery is all that hot.

[TarteTatin]

No, Katie, I don't want to kill you!

I think-#1-that Aden wasn't that great, so that's why its going...

#2-that Northern Liberties could bring more business and less rent than center center city

(Metropolitan went out of biz, first at 2nd and Market and then at Farmacia-because they are surrounded by Fork, Old City Coffee, Double Shot, and not far away Petit 4 and Pink Rose-that's certainly not the area to go into, where there's tons of other similar places).

Rittenhouse Square has had two bakeries go out of biz/new owners recently. The place near La Colombe (name?) and Miel has new owners and isn't as good...so that's not the place.

I certainly think Nolib is better than Queen Village who has the Italian Market close by for competition...Art museum has more than a few places too...Gosh, Reading Terminal would be perfect! Can they get in there?

[rlibkind]

Art museum has more than a few places too...

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I live in Fairmount (Art Museum area) and can't think of a single patisserie, not even close. Mugshot certainly doesn't count, nor does London. The only baking that gets done in the neighborhood is in the pizza establishments.

Gosh, Reading Terminal would be perfect!  Can they get in there?

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Can't imagine that happening. Since RTM just signed up one high-end patisserie, Flying Monkey, to occupy the Braverman's space, I find it highly unlikely that management would allow a similar bakery in there to compete before Flying Monkey has a chance to establish itself. And even then I don't think they'd want a second patisserie.

[CherieV]

No, Katie, I don't want to kill you!

I think-#1-that Aden wasn't that great, so that's why its going...

#2-that Northern Liberties could bring more business and less rent than center center city

(Metropolitan went out of biz, first at 2nd and Market and then at Farmacia-because they are surrounded by Fork, Old City Coffee, Double Shot, and not far away Petit 4 and Pink Rose-that's certainly not the area to go into, where there's tons of other similar places).

Rittenhouse Square has had two bakeries go out of biz/new owners recently. The place near La Colombe (name?) and Miel has new owners and isn't as good...so that's not the place.

I certainly think Nolib is better than Queen Village who has the Italian Market close by for competition...Art museum has more than a few places too...Gosh, Reading Terminal would be perfect!  Can they get in there?

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We at the Art Museum/Fairmount do NOT have any bakeries. Interestingly enough on another blog site (phillyblog) there has been a converstion going on about a corner development and we took a poll as to what we "wished" it would be. Guess what? Bakery! Bakery! Bakery! Exactly the kind in which you are describing. Just to give you a little info on recent things that have opened, at the corner of my block at 25th and Parrish a simple Italian Rest just opened and it has been standing room only packed with the phones ringing off the hook. Too much buisness for them to even keep up. Fairmount/Art Museum is a large residential community and we love to patronize close to home. We have a good mix of old timers and young professional people here. There is so much room for new buisnesses. I can't think of one new spot that has gone out of buisness since I have lived here. That's over 6 years now! We desperately need a great bakery too, I think you would do really well here. Lot's of luck in whatever you do and welcome to Philly!

[rlibkind]

Just to give you a little info on recent things that have opened, at the corner of my block at 25th and Parrish a simple Italian Rest just opened and it has been standing room only packed with the phones ringing off the hook.  Too much buisness for them to even keep up.

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More info, please! I'm behind Eastern State so don't go by 25th & Parrish often. In't that where Beato's Pizzeria was? (I used to send them over cans of anchovy because they didn't stock it: when I'd call in an order it would be "fish for Bob".)

[CherieV]

Just to give you a little info on recent things that have opened, at the corner of my block at 25th and Parrish a simple Italian Rest just opened and it has been standing room only packed with the phones ringing off the hook.  Too much buisness for them to even keep up.

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More info, please! I'm behind Eastern State so don't go by 25th & Parrish often. In't that where Beato's Pizzeria was? (I used to send them over cans of anchovy because they didn't stock it: when I'd call in an order it would be "fish for Bob".)

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Yup, that's the place! New name is Angelino's. I've been waiting 2 years for this place to open. They are eat-in and take-out. The owners are Portugese and it is family run. They did a beautiful renovation job. They were going for a more upscale concept at first but apparently their italian chef couldn't hack the wait and went back to Italy. So they opened as a casual italian rest. They use really good ingredients, ie Sarcones rolls for all sandwiches, Homemade pizza dough, even fresh cannoli's. They are still working things out as they are completly overwhelmed by our patronage. I appreciate people that I know are really trying to serve good food but are doing the best they can with an hour wait at the door and for take-out. Yes, I am serious. They are nice people and I am so glad they are here.

[rlibkind]

Yup, that's the place!  New name is Angelino's . . . . The owners are Portugese and it is family run.

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Any Portuguese items?

[CherieV]

Yup, that's the place!  New name is Angelino's . . . . The owners are Portugese and it is family run.

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Any Portuguese items?

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Not yet but they say it is their intention to incorporate some when they get their act together.

I'm a huge fan being originally from North Jersey, so I'm hopeful.

[rlibkind]

A little bit of Ironbound in Fairmount. Can't wait. Can use some caldo verde right about now.

[Jeff L]

A little bit of Ironbound in Fairmount. Can't wait. Can use some caldo verde right about now.

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Wow, wouldn't that be something, Iberia south? Any places like this or Spain or Tony Dacaneca's in the area? Man-Portugese pork and clams with that awesome bread, I'm seriously thinking about driving to Newark right now!