Expensive food for rich people

[Austin]

I just finished reading the Ruth Reichl interview, which I found interesting and entertaining, but almost the entire time reading it I couldn't help but think to myself that virtually everything discussed revolved around the topic of expensive food for rich people...

Probably I'm stating the obvious, and perhaps this is the realm of Gourmet magazine (judging by the name of the magazine alone it probably is!), but even in reading eGullet and other mags I still get a strong impression that the general concept of food in the US today is pretty elite. Wide-reaching terms mentioned in the interview such as "the next cuisine" or "food trends" seemed only to refer to expensive food prepared for a relatively small group of wealthy people in urban areas. And is it really sane to assume that what this small group of people does actually has an impact on food in general (the food that people eat every day) in the US?

I find this disturbing, but perhaps this stems from the fact that I have lived virtually my entire adult life in Thailand, where food is, for the most part, a very inclusive and non-elitist entity. Of course there are expensive restaurants here, but it would be ridiculous to imagine that they have any impact whatsoever on the cuisine as a whole. And anyway, in Thailand, good, truly good honest healthy hearty food is within the reach of all but the most destitute, so why go somewhere expensive? Here there seems to be little concern about what's "new" or what's "next" but rather, what's "good", and price is not even a factor. Sounds unbelieveable doesn't it?

On the topic of regional cuisines, there was a point brought up about Algerian food in the interview, but I get the impression that part of the OP's frustration about North African is that the cuisine is not well represented in expensive restaurants in NYC. Is this necessary? Does food have to be served at a high price to rich people before it can be appreciated? It seems to me that the OP's efforts to spread knowledge about Algerian cooking via his blog are much more laudable than serving the same thing at $30 a plate to a stockbroker or a food critic. Personally, I think the highest praise one can pay a cuisine is a well-researched, beautifully photographed book highlighting food that people actually eat (Hot Sour Salty Sweet by Duguid and Alford comes to mind).

And why is there such an emphasis on expensive restaurants, when in reality even average restaurants (let alone the ones featured in Gourmet!) are out of the reach of many, many Americans. Growing up, my family was not poor by any means, but even a visit to an average restaurant chain was somewhat of a luxury, and didn't happen very often. I reckon we liked the food at these places, but in hindsight, there was certainly nothing special about them, especially when one considers the crappy raw ingredients (Sysco) and lack of creativity put into the food. It would be wonderful to see the chefs and restauranteurs so lauded on these pages use their talents to promote creative, good healthy hearty food using good quality ingredients at a price that the average Joe can afford. In my opinion, accomplishing this would be a true culinary masterpiece.

To close, I realize that there are numerous blogs and websites and the great cookbooks out there doing a lot to promote food that people actually eat, but there still seems to be an unhealthy and unrealistic emphasis on the elite, and I think we need to get our feet back on the ground and acknowledge that good food is something that we all deserve to enjoy, not just food critics and lawyers. Personally, I hope the "next thing" in cooking is an emphasis on real food for real people; that would be worth writing about!

Austin

[Chris Amirault]

Interesting post, Austin, but I'd have to disagree with your statement that "even in reading eGullet and other mags I still get a strong impression that the general concept of food in the US today is pretty elite." Depends on what you're reading, really. Sure, if you read the Alinea or Per Se threads you'll confirm this statement, but a scratch of the eGullet surface will reveal many threads devoted to inexpensive food for not-rich people.

Of course, if you're arguing that the editor of a magazine called Gourmet focuses on elite food, well, that fish is dead in the barrel!

[Carrot Top]

Personally, I hope the "next thing" in cooking is an emphasis on real food for real people; that would be worth writing about!

Austin

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What do you see "real food for real people" as being, Austin?

It would be good to hear more specifically what you have in mind.

Karen

[melkor]

Good ingredients are expensive in the US. The majority of the inexpensive restaurants are either chain restaurants or serving pre-made food from Sysco. Food isn't really a part of our culture, anyone who works in an office can tell you that the bulk of their co-workers get their lunch from McDonalds.

For a restaurant to serve quality food at an affordable price they not only need to spend substantially more money for their ingredients but they also need more people working in the kitchen since cooking takes more time than opening bags and reheating things, then they need to find enough customers that the restaurant is full all the time. A restaurant that spends more money on staff and ingredients will have a very hard time competing on price and will need to serve an enormous number of customers each day to stay profitable.

In Thailand there is no Sysco truck, ingredients come from the market and food is a huge part of the culture. It costs about the same amount of money to make any given dish in any kitchen if you start from the same ingredients, customers on a budget have the luxury of deciding where to feed their family based on how the food tastes. I wish that were true here.

[silverbrow]

Wide-reaching terms mentioned in the interview such as "the next cuisine" or "food trends" seemed only to refer to expensive food prepared for a relatively small group of wealthy people in urban areas.

---

And why is there such an emphasis on expensive restaurants, when in reality even average restaurants (let alone the ones featured in Gourmet!) are out of the reach of many, many Americans.

I think the hype around food culture is not a rich thing, it's a middle class thing. It's driven by people with enough money to be concerned by what they buy and are able to afford choice, but are conscious enough of the value of money that they are careful how they spend it.

I think the focus on expensive restaurants is further evidence of the impact of the middle class - it is aspirational. Most people can't afford to eat in expensive restaurants every day, but people might aspire to one day having a meal there, which is why celebrity chefs endorseendorse commercially available products. The consumer can buy into the dream. Also, real life tends to be dreary, it's much more fun to write about French Laundry and revel in the food porn, than review your local Italian - even though that might be more useful to your eating experience.

It would be wonderful to see the chefs and restauranteurs so lauded on these pages use their talents to promote creative, good healthy hearty food using good quality ingredients at a price that the average Joe can afford.  In my opinion, accomplishing this would be a true culinary masterpiece.

Check out Jamie Oliver's Feed me Better campaign as an example of a chef doing just that for school kids.

[RyuShihan]

Id have to partially agree with him, i think great food would be even better if it was cheaper so that the average everyday person could enjoy it without spending their paycheck to go out and eat at such great places. Imagine being able to Eat Keller, Ducase or Trotters food at $10 a plate and its everywhere. The slight part i disagree on is that the term real food can be different to each individual. For instance to me I love Fine dinning but my Dad is a good ole boy from Southern Illinois and to him real food is a t-bone steak and mashed potatoes.

Likewise I do agree with Thailands great food, my mom was born NaNoy its in northern Thailand and in our visists i realised that even the guys on the carts had good food, but was it really good or was it just the right flavors that apealed to my palate, whereas someone who didnt like smelly fish, hot spices and bold flavors might not like it as much.

[melkor]

Likewise I do agree with Thailands great food, my mom was born NaNoy its in northern Thailand and in our visists i realised that even the guys on the carts had good food, but was it really good or was it just the right flavors that apealed to my palate, whereas someone who didnt like smelly fish, hot spices and bold flavors might not like it as much.

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Even if you don't like smelly fish, hot spices, and bold flavors you can eat well from the street vendors all over Thailand - fried chicken, roti, fresh fruit, sugar cane juice, etc.

[Ducky]

I think both Melkor and Silverbrow are correct.

In Thailand good food results when fresh ingredients are well prepared - and because fresh ingredients are everywhere, you can have superb meals for very little money.

In America, the great fast food nation, it is remarkably difficult to find "fresh ingredients well prepared". We drive to California regularly from Vancouver and on a drive such as this it is virtually impossible to find "fresh ingredients well prepared". This is no exaggeration. For our last trip we purchased a "Health Food Guide" to the USA - and used this to find little places along the way that cook fresh ingredients. This was great step forward for us - even though the food was largely vegetarian - which we are not.

Of course in every major US urban centre you can find high end restaurants that prepare fresh ingredients well - but these are not broadly accessible or affordable.

Contrast this with Thailand, where you can eat brilliantly on virtually every streetcorner.

In Thailand eating well is (and long has been) a part of the culture which accepted at every strata of society. This has never been the case in the US - where a very large percentage of the population eats badly and unimaginatively. In the US "eating well" has always had something slightly elitist about it. This has never been the case in Thailand.

In America a serious foodie with money will visit the French Laundry and Charlie Trotter's etc., and spend his time on eGullet. In Thailand a serious foodie with money will hire a good live-in cook.

[RyuShihan]

my idea wasn't so much the flavors so much as, each persons opinion of good food is very different, I have known people in my life who live off of macaroonie and cheese and hamburgers and would place a meal that came out of a box higher than fresh ingriedients. Of course everyone on this website is at least a foodie so trying to think that crappy food can be good is a hard idea to pass along but in a society where a hamburger can cost $5 it shouldn't.

[H. du Bois]

I think there is a point to what Austin is saying.

I've lived for the past 20 years in New York City, though I'm presently on a long-term visit to my family, who live in the country. I've grown accustomed to being able to buy fresh, seasonal produce via the greenmarkets in NYC, and to eat at various wonderful little ethnic restaurants all over town as a matter of course.

Yet here, even in an agricultural region, once the farmers' produce stands close down for the season (usually by late October), you have no recourse for purchasing fresh fruits or vegetables beyond the supermarket chains, and god only knows where they were grown, when they were picked, or how many thousands of miles they had to travel to arrive on the shelf. Much of the supermarket meat comes "value packed," and one has no way of knowing whether their sourcing is reliable, ethical or healthful.

The restaurants (usually chains) tend to serve portions that more than make up for in quantity what they lack in flavor. I can leave feeling filled, but not satisfied. Perhaps I should also mention that I've gained weight since I left the metropolis - a very unhappy state of affairs.

Things are better here than they were 20 years ago - now one can find fresh herbs in supermarkets, and a variety of vegetables beyond the rock-hard square, pale tomatoes and the ubiquitous iceberg lettuce of yore, but there still seems to be an inherent disconnect between the nation-at-large and its food supply.

Aside from growing one's own fruits and vegetables organically and having various ingredients sent to one's home via Fedex, what can an ordinary someone living outside an urban center in the US do in order to eat well? The former is more time-consuming that most people can manage; the latter is prohibitively expensive (read elite).

I happened to be in England when Jamie Oliver's school food series first aired, and it was riveting television. It also packed enough of a wallop to shame the government into making changes in the nation's school lunch programs.

Could something similar happen here? Could our celebrity chefs whet their sharp knives and wits and do battle for a greater good? There is a SERIOUS problem with how this nation is eating, and the problem doesn't have to do with good intentions on the part of the eater.

Ellen

[Pan]

We need to get comments by Pim in this thread. She can discuss the draw of high-end restaurants in Bangkok and why wealthy Thais choose to go there, rather than going to a stall. We also need comments from people who live in parts of the US like Louisiana. I don't think you need to be rich or pay a lot of money to get delicious food there. (Actually, you can get tasty food very cheaply in New York, too, if you know where to go [like Chinatown and Flushing].)

[Richard Kilgore]

Thanks for the interesting post, Austin. You made a point that expensive restaurants have no impact on what average people eat in the United States. While this may be partly correct, in that for example few cook from the French Laundry cookbook, some important trends in expensive restaurants have had far reaching effects on food and cooking in the US. The emphasis on a wide range of quality ingredients starting in the late 1960s and 1970s in California by Alice Waters at Chez Panisse and others has had a wide ranging effect on what is available in the average grocery store and what and how people cook at home.

While unimaginative, pre-prepared and reheated foods are more than common in fast food and other chain restaurants, well-prepared, inexpensive meals made with fresh ingredients are available in a wide variety of "ethnic" restaurants all over the US. Available to all the average and unaverage people who walk through their doors. For not much more than a burger, fries and a softdrink.

As a side note, just to be fair --- while Gourmet certainly has an upscale image, its content is clearly not designed only for the very wealthy, nor focused on fine dining primarily. I have the November and December issues before me. One has a turkey on the cover and the other has cookies. Featured articles also include 10 minute main courses, baking without wheat, 79 ways to celebrate Thanksgiving, holiday menus, kitchen knives, kitchen design, travel, making terrines, culinary traditions in coastal South Carolina, a diner in Indiana that serves Middleastern food, small food enterprises run by women in Uganda, etc. No big emphasis on expensive restaurants. Your comments may have been based on the fact that Ruth Reichl's most recent memoir, "Garlic and Sapphires," covered the period that she was the critic for the New York Times...a fine book that is inevitably about expensive restaurants, but also is complex and about much, much more. I can recommend it.

While the eGullet Society is purposefully inclusive (professional and home cooks; fine diners and simpler diners of all sorts; writers, critics, editors and readers; even lawyers), I also think you will find more content in the eG Forums on food that people do cook and eat at home than on expensive restaurants. Just checkout the Cooking forum, Pastry and Baking forums and also the eGCI.

[Behemoth]

I question the idea that good food is expensive -- in fact I think food in the US is cheaper than in any other part of the world I've lived in, relative to average income. I am currently living in a tiny midwestern town. People have become so passive about what they eat here they complain about the bad tomatoes in the supermarket when there is a twice a week farmer's market selling beautiful heirlooms at exactly the same price. (I literally had this conversation with my neighbor two nights ago.) They just don't feel like spending the time shopping or cooking, which is perfectly fine, but then to set it up as a yuppies vs. proles thing is disingenuous to me. It's just garden variety American pragmatism -- cheaply constructed monster houses, ugly shopping centers, commute 40 miles to work so you can live in a slightly bigger house that you only see for 3 waking hours on weekdays, buy your groceries, spark plugs and lawn mowers all in the same place. If it is the influential rich in the world saying, we've been to europe, we want to live someplace that loks nice and eat good food, then well, maybe that is not such a bad thing.

[Austin]

Thanks for all your replies, and sorry for my late reply! (As I mentioned, I live in Thailand and went to bed right after I wrote the post.)

Chrisamirault and Richard: point taken that not 100% of food mags (including Gourmet) is elitist. But, I am actually a freelance writer/photographer, and in looking at the pages of Gourmet (Feb 2005), Australian Gourmet Traveller, Vogue Entertaining + Travel, there seems to be an unhealthy fascination with things expensive. On the other hand, Chile Pepper and Intermezzo seem to avoid this to an extent. And yes, critcizing Gourmet for its elitist approach is somewhat like shooting fish in a barrel, but in reading that interview I kept getting the impression that people actually believe that what these restaurants are doing is having an impact on the food that everyday people eat, which seems ridiculous to me.

Carrot Top: I agree that it's a vague term, but by saying real food for real people I mean two things: One, I'd like to see more of an effort on the part of talented chefs to do something that benefits all people (real people), not just those with money. Regarding Jamie Oliver, I was going to mention him, and I think it's a great example of someone talented in the area of food that has decided to contribute something to the average Joe. Too bad this isn't happening more. I reckon there's no money to be made in it! And secondly, it seems that waaay too much of the modern food media still prays at the altar of a few chefs and overexaggerates their influence. Personally I'd much rather read about what people in Bangladesh eat, or what is English food nowadays. This, in my mind, is food, sustenance, and what people really eat. It is a product of location and culture and history.

Pan: Regarding Thai food, I wasn't suggesting that the wealthy eat at stalls. I think the reason they would frequent humble restaurants is because these places specialize in a few dishes, or perhaps a genre of Thai food, and do it well.

Behemoth: I really can't agree with you that food in the US is cheap. I gasp every time I have to buy food when I go home. Do you think the average American family can afford to eat at a restaurant that eGulleters would consider good? I doubt it. And taking the entire family to eat out is a weekly occurence for many people in Bangkok.

[munchymom]

Do you think the average American family can afford to eat at a restaurant that eGulleters would consider good?  I doubt it.  And  taking the entire family to eat out is a weekly occurence for many people in Bangkok.

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All kinds of restaurants are discussed here, not just the expensive ones. At my favorite Vietnamese restaurant here in Charlotte, you can get a truly immense (and also very tasty) bowl of pho for $6.50. That price is well within reach of the average American family - comparable in price to a sandwich at Subway or a McDonald's combo. Sure, we all like to talk about the fanciest fine dining places, but there's plenty of discussion at the low end as well.

To your larger point about trends at the high end affecting what people in the middle class eat - it's a slow process but it does happen. The food that I ate as a child in the 1970's is very different from the food my parents make now - the variety of "exotic" ingredients and fresh produce available in their rural New Hampshire town is just amazing, and completely different from what was available twenty years ago. They've been reading the food magazines for years, and it shows in their cooking.

[Mayhaw Man]

I'm not entirely sure that I agree with a number of things that have been proposed here:

1) eGullet hardly exists just to record the thought and hunger processes of high end diners. If that was the case, I would not be able to relate to much of the conversation here-and I can. While I am an experienced high end diner, it is, frankly, not even something that I particularly enjoy. Just scroll through some of the more popular topics here. Butt smoking (you can get a butt big enough to feed the whole rechid family for really cheap), tater tots, that sandwich bag thing, lots of topics specifically about various cooking methods for individual and inexpensive vegetables (though not nearly enough about Okra-the misunderstood pod that could change the world if it were only given a fair chance). And as far as "a restaurant that the average eGulleteer would think was good" you might want to spend a bit of time looking at, for example, that New York Index-it's a pretty broad spectrum and after you do that, start moving around the regional forums and see how much discussion, rediculously serious discussion, that there is of BBQ, hot dogs, blue plates, meat and threes, road house dining, etc. -it's alot. Most of the people here, by and large, can't handle the tab at a French Laundry-but they like to read about it. Vicarious dining is apparently very satisfying for many folks here-myself included. When someone like Doc records one of those orgies that he loves so, I really enjoy following along and in a couple of cases, I have enjoyed going and comparing my experiences to the ones that he has had. It's part of the fun here, if you choose to participate in it.

2) I don't know if the US has the least expensive food in the world, but in terms of selection and variety easily available to the average shopper, we probably are at the top of the charts. A person of fairly modest means can eat very well here, especially if they have the time to prepare (and the know how) a decent meal. Certainly there are many people that spend crazy money on fast food when, for much less, they could prepare better and much healthier meals at home-but that gets into the socio-economic part of the conversation that is much, much more complex than I feel like diving into here.

3) And as far as making "high end dining available to the masses" well, why the hell would you want to? Who, in their right mind, would want to eat all of that stuff all of the time-even the most zealous of these people still like to take a break and eat a basic plate of well prepared food in a home or homelike setting. No one, including those chefs who "are at the altar to be worshipped" can eat this stuff all of the time. I regularly join a group in New Orleans that includes some chefs that everyone here who knows anything about dining here would know. What do we eat every Monday night? Red beans and rice with some kind of forcemeat or pork included, a simple salad, a very simple dessert ( a great selection of Gambino's doberge cake last night-awesome, familiar, and very comforting-that's a big deal here in disasterland right now), lots of drinks, and no small amount of laughter. The discussion never includes, other than compliments to the cook (the food is usually outstanding), any discussion about the food or it's deconstructed ingredients. Most people, even these guys, just like to eat good food and realize that, at it's best, it's merely a compliment to something much greater). The high end, multi course thing is as much of a dance, a ballet with food, taste, and intellectual challenge as it is a meal. As long as it can be appreciated for that, it is kind of fun once in a while-but I don't think anyone can do it all of the time.

4) And as far as chefs benefiting real people goes, why would they? There are plenty, and I mean plenty of people out there who have never, and will never, grace the pages of many of the magazines that you mention. They don't need to. They already have an appreciative audience where they ply their trade-making solidly good food (and often inventive enough)for people who are there to enjoy the food as much for the sustenance as for the good company that often occurs around a well served table. Dining, to me, at it's best, is a balance of many things-surroundings, food, company, service, and the thought that is put into creating an environment that will serve to deftly bring all of these together. This kind of thing is, really, just as available in a small mom and pop place as it is at Per Se or El Bulli (more in my opinion, though some will surely disagree). And as far as some kind of real work for the public, beyond the table in the restaurant, who are the first people to be asked to donate their time (and often their very scarce funds) to every kind of fundraiser to come down the pike? Chefs (well, maybe artists, but that's another website) are. As craftsmen, for some reason, much like artists, people having fundraisers automatically assume that these people have the time, the energy, the will and the talent to help them put together a nice fundraiser-as the people doing the asking usually have no idea just how much work that it actually is or how precious little time that these men and women have for this kind of thing. But give they do, and often. Ask some chef in your town how many of these kinds of events he does every year. You might be suprised. It's probably more than you think.

5) As for the magazines, the ones that you mentioned anyway, their content is all over the place. Gourmet in particular (a magazine that I still enjoy greatly-unlike many of those here) is all over the place. John T Edge and the Sterns are generally not covering high end stuff, but often quite the opposite-but someone will be. As for Chile Pepper (disclosure: I am a regular contributor to that much improved magazine-I like it and would read it even if they didn't write checks with my name on it) I can tell you that it seems to be part of their mission to make sure that, for example, the recipes in the magazine are able to be made by everyone who reads it if they are able to follow instructions and learn a technique or two. It's a really big deal and the recipes are part of the pieces (whether you realize this or not) and not just something stuck in there as filler. Believe me-those recipes have caused me enough pain and suffering to be sure of that fact, if nothing else.

So, in short, I believe that food is available (both in the ready to prepare and prepared states) and information about food is available in a wide variety of price ranges and environmental choices here in the US. It is, to me, not at all about being for the rich folks only-at least not anymore than any other class division is. They have more money than you or me, they can do different stuff, but I will argue (and win) that what they choose to do with their money in big deal places is not better, often times not as good or as enjoyable, as what I do with mine in places that are much less expensive but often better in terms of both food and atmosphere.

Of course, it's all relative-and these are my opinions. Your experience may vary with driving habits and road conditions.

[Austin]

At $6.50 a bowl, for a family of four that would be $26. This doesn't include drinks, or a tip (how much is an acceptable tip in the US nowadays?). My guess is that the total will be something like $36-40 US for four bowls of noodle soup. Is this cheap? To me it seems expensive, considering what you're getting (single bowl, rather than a complete meal), but again, I've been living in Thailand too long!

But yes, I agree, here at eGullet there's a wide range of discussion. I think that is partially because a lot of us here are interested in making food, not just eating it. I looked back at the magazines I mentioned earlier, and those that concentrate on dining seem to focus on the expensive, where as those that emphasize cooking seem to include recipes that range from inexpensive to expensive.

And the point above about the lack of a food culture in the US is true. In Thailand, it's accepted that people are crazy about food; always eating and talking about it. People here seem to "live to eat", whereas people in the US are possibly for of the "eat to live" kind.

Austin

[Austin]

Mayhaw: I never suggested making "high end dining available to the masses", but I would like to see good, healthy, creative food available at a price that normal people can afford. Although I'm far away, I get the impression that this is not the case in America.

And if things are as you say, why doss dining in the US seem so exclusive and prohibited when compared to Thailand or somewhere else? Maybe you haven't been abroad, but there is a very different feel, at least in this part of the world. Why can't US chefs do something more inclusive? Although it sounds virtuous, I think that would be a much more difficult and requires much more skill and talent to make good food at low prices than the opposite. Will this ever happen?

Anyway, all good points.

Austin

[Austin]

By the way, I just want to say that to some extent, I am playing the Devil's Advocate here, but these things were really on my mind after reading the piece, and I think the post has brought about some interesting discussion!

Austin

[munchymom]

At $6.50 a bowl, for a family of four that would be $26. This doesn't include drinks, or  a tip (how much is an acceptable tip in the US nowadays?).  My guess is that the total will be something like $36-40 US for four bowls of noodle soup.  Is this cheap?  To me it seems expensive, considering what you're getting (single bowl, rather than a complete meal), but again, I've been living in Thailand too long!

←

Cheap or expensive in absolute terms, I dunno. (I'm sure that there are all kinds of expenses that are radically different in Thailand, not just food.) Certainly I could make it at home for less. But as I said above, it's about the same as one would spend at Subway or McDonald's - and there are plenty of middle- and working-class people who patronize the fast-food places on a regular basis. It's not an elite experience.

[docsconz]

By the way, Brooks - orgies?

I just call them like I see them, Doc.

Seriously though, I think that when you get into a description of that kind of dining experience that there is a sensual component that is very analogous to good sex. It's all about higher levels of pleasure and trying to achieve some kind of sensory overload by using an external medium as the catalyst-in this case, it would be well prepared food.

[Austin]

John: You're right and I agree with what you say, but is close to $40 (not $26) for four bowls of noodle soup in the reach of most people? Maybe it is, but again, this and fast food are sort of at the bottom of the heap of dining in the US, and I can't imagine most people being able to afford more quality food without having to pay more than they're willing. As I mentioned before, for many people in Bangkok at least, price is not even really an issue. It's too bad that things aren't like that in the US!

That's a good point about cooking being an example of an art. My complaint is that the majority written about this "art" in newspapers and magazines seems to focus on high-end restaurants and chefs. Personally, I'd be more interetsed in reading about what Swedish people eat for breakfast, or the history of chilies or whatever, but we all have different desires, and I reckon I'm a minority!

Austin

[docsconz]

That's a good point about cooking being an example of an art.  My complaint is that the majority written about this "art" in newspapers and magazines seems to focus on high-end restaurants and chefs.  Personally, I'd be more interetsed in reading about what Swedish people eat for breakfast, or the history of chilies or whatever, but we all have different desires, and I reckon I'm a minority!

Austin

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This is one of the things that makes eGullet so compelling as individuals can discuss whatever they wish about food and people with similar interests will likely respond.

[Richard Kilgore]

At $6.50 a bowl, for a family of four that would be $26. This doesn't include drinks, or   a tip (how much is an acceptable tip in the US nowadays?).  My guess is that the total will be something like $36-40 US for four bowls of noodle soup.  Is this cheap?  To me it seems expensive, considering what you're getting (single bowl, rather than a complete meal), but again, I've been living in Thailand too long!

Austin

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I think you are mixing apples and oranges in several of your points in this thread. If you are living comfortably in Thailand and come to the US, yes, I imagine food would seem expensive, but so would housing, most consumer goods, personal services, medical care, skilled labor such as auto service and repair work, etc.

I have Thai/Lao friends who talk about how inexpensive the food is in Bangkok, even in the airport. But in Thailand many years ago they lived in a thatched hut; in the U.S. they now own a restaurant and a large two story house in the burbs. Some go back to visit every few years and bring tales of sumptous eating, and they pride themselves on serving well-prepared food here at a more than reasonable (for this market) price, which usually runs something like $9 to $15 per person for dinner --- tax, gratuity and tea included. Couples and families eat there. Chefs and food lovers eat there. Frequently. Very few are wealthy.

[OnigiriFB]

I am by no means Pim or anything (who is? ) but I am Thai and spent 5 years in Bangkok when I was a teenager. From my experience growning up in a relatively wealthy Thai family going out to the ritzy thai places were just a matter of prestige. Most thai food I had at the fancy places couldn't hold a candle to what our cook made or even some of the local street stalls. Also restaurants are cleaner and a nicer place to eat. Most of the time when we went out we either went for foreign food (japanese, vietnamese, chinese, etc) or we went to celebrate. So ambience and the like played a part. If your in Bangkok you'll understand that when your sitting in a imported Prada dress and just had your hair done for $100 the last thing you want to do is go sit on the street corner, breathe smog, and eat dinner.

Keep in mind that Thai culture is generally centered around eating. Go to any Thai home and the maid (or lady of the house) will bring you a glass of water and some tidbits to nibble on. One of the first things people would ask you is if you had eaten yet. If you say no, then you can bet that something would be found or even made on the spot just for you to eat. Something we Thais learn young is giving. One of the things I was surprised I miss is getting up in the mornings to give alms to the monks. Every morning our cook would get up at 5 am to make sure there was something (curry, stirfry, etc) and a big pot of rice ready at 6am for the monks that came by for alms. Someone in the household would get up and be at the door to give alms. On my birthday I would plan a special meal and also give some flowers and incense to the monks. In my household at least, all of us (there are at last count about 30 of us) do on our birthdays since we are toddlers. So not only do we learn giving we learn that food is important. Most of my memories of big celebrations are centered around food. Be it going out to eat, inviting monks for rites our house and then eat, catering parties for birthdays, etc. So in essence I really think Thai people are raise to "live to eat" not "eat to live".

I moved to Iowa for schooling and have lived here for quite awhile. My friends are all American and most of them do not put any real effort into eating well. They are comfortable going to chain restaurants and shopping in the local super walmart. Part of is just what they are used to and how much time they are willing to devote to cooking. Even my friend who was raised within the same economic background I was hasn't been exposed to the types of food available as I was. Her mother cooked and cooked well for around here. They went out to local higher end restaurants. But until she moved to college and we started hanging out she had never really experienced food from other cultures. She is always willing to go and try something with me though. Now her husband loves to cook and the foodnetwork has exposed her to a variety of things. So she is started to become a bit of a foodie. (hurrah!)

Over the years I've dragged all of my friends to different places and made them try new things but left to thier own devices they go to what they are used to. They cook what they are used to. I can drag them to farmer's markets and organic stores but for the most part they wouldn't know what to do with it. From my experience their focus isn't so much on food as the people you would find here on eGullet or in Thailand.