Menu Expansiveness

[Chris Amirault]

Has anyone noticed that the number of items popping up on many menus seems to be expanding? In the years I've been going to several area restaurants, I swear there's been an exponential increase at some places.

It's drivin' me nuts, I tell you! I'm starting to want a drink handed to me before the menu. I'd rather see three mains than thirty at this point; after all, can most kitchens even do thirty mains decently? I'm not alone: I know one person who swears she became a vegetarian for a while to limit restaurant choices.

Is this menu explosion just happening up here in the northeast US? Or are you seeing it in your burg, too? How do you react to the multipage menu miasma?

[BarbaraY]

About 35 years ago I worked in a small town restaurant that had more items than any other place around so this isn't necessarily a new trend. Oddly, we seldom had anything wasted. If all else failed, it was ground up and put in the meatloaf.

Personally I would rather see a shorter menu with fewer items done well than everything imaginable down in a mediocre fashion.

[Chris Amirault]

About 35 years ago I worked in a small town restaurant that had more items than any other place around so this isn't necessarily a new trend. Oddly, we seldom had anything wasted. If all else failed, it was ground up and put in the meatloaf.

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I'm not exactly sure, but I think that this may prove my point....

[rooftop1000]

I dont understand when people order meatloaf at a restaurant.

At work we were just remebering a little Mexican place that used to be nearby....something like 4 "wrappers" - 4 meats - 4 sauces. That was it, thats all anyone needed.

T

[Gifted Gourmet]

Actually, the nicer (more elegant and upscale) the restaurant, the less complex the menu. Usually, it is a choice designed from what is fresh and good that day... what the chef chose personally.

As for long menus? Cheesecake Factory looks more and more like the NY phonebooks and weighs in heavier upon each successive visit!

Wasn't it fashionable at one time to say "less is more"?

the best menus are those that are the most straightforward. "Red ruby shrimp with Summerland Farm tomato granita and horseradish broth" from a summer offering at Quinones at Bacchanalia tells me exactly what I'm getting.

Style in menu writing (yes, this is taught at most culinary schools) now leans toward the lean: Say as little as possible while informing. Guenter Seeger's menus are always sharp, staccato notes of description, similar to his cooking style. "Squab baked in cinnamon, glazed Woodland Farm carrots, date chutney" was a recent menu note.  And since the Alice Waters era, it's as important to let the diner know where something is from as it is to let him know how it will be prepared.

Atlanta Journal-Constitution

[McAuliflower]

Has anyone noticed that the number of items popping up on many menus seems to be expanding? In the years I've been going to several area restaurants, I swear there's been an exponential increase at some places.

Just last night we were watching one of those restaurant make-over shows (this one wasn't a disaster like the Grapefruit Moon one, euuugh, that designer still gives me the shivers...).

The chef took this restaurant's menu and aimed to minimize the menu offerings. It seems like a good move to simplify and specialize your menu in this way. He used it as a tactic to help cut cost and to help with ingredient management.

It's kind of like good design- you want to distill your goodness, not dilute it in fluff.

[Arianna]

I think it's actually mid-level restaurants that suffer from menu-bloating. A tiny restaurant probably sells only a few things- think taqueria, pho shop, burger joint. A nicer restaurant has an abbreviated menu because of art and taste composition and the complexity of the dishes. It's more the middle sized places that want to have something to please absolutely everyone, like maybe a local steakhouse serving spaghetti and meatballs. Just another symptom of suburban sprawl, maybe?

[daniellewiley]

Is this menu explosion just happening up here in the northeast US? Or are you seeing it in your burg, too? How do you react to the multipage menu miasma?

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It's happening here in the midwest, too. Here is a link to the restaurant we went to for my birthday last weekend:

Zingermans' Roadhouse

My dad came in from NY to celebrate with me, and I actually sent him the menu via snail mail two weeks ahead of time. He went through and highlighted items of interest!!! Yes, he is a bit OCD, but still....

Oh, and this online menu doesn't include the multi-page cheese list, or the specials list, which usually has about five apps and seven mains.

[Gifted Gourmet]

I think it's actually mid-level restaurants that suffer from menu-bloating.  A tiny restaurant probably sells only a few things- think taqueria, pho shop, burger joint.  A nicer restaurant has an abbreviated menu because of art and taste composition and the complexity of the dishes.  It's more the middle sized places that want to have something to please absolutely everyone, like maybe a local steakhouse serving spaghetti and meatballs.  Just another symptom of suburban sprawl, maybe?

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My point exactly ... You seem to have analyzed this idea perfectly, Arianna!

[lesfen]

Damn it... There's a local greasy spoon that has a HUGE (and hilarious) menu that I wanted to post, but they've taken it off of their site. Damn. Their most popular breakfast item is "The Dump Breakfast". It's four pages and the type is microscopic. Each item has a little blurb about it written by Mike.

I wish I could get my hands on the damn thing... it's so perfect when you see the outside...

Yeah, that's a model X-Wing Fighter.

But wait, there's more...

Yeah, that's a bus. They have booths in it. Yeah, that's a castle. They have a banquet hall in there. I had my rehearsal dinner in there. It was quite... um... regal. Yeah, regal.

[Tess]

Swingers in LA has a funny huge menu. I like that in a diner although I always have to drink at least one cup of coffee before I figure out what to eat.

I don't like certain kinds of build-your-own menus. Choosing components of a meal is fine but I generally don't want to be given a choice between several sauces for each type of fish or meat. I'd rather think that the kitchen has chosen a sauce for each dish with some kind of thought.

[tazerowe]

You want an excessive menu, try Shopsins, the place Calvin Trillian has written about in New York.

Menu

The scary thing is that most things are pretty good (certainly not everything, but most things) and the menu changes regularly. About every other visit I either ask about something that is gone or order something that the staff comments is new.

[Chris Amirault]

You want an excessive menu, try Shopsins, the place Calvin Trillian has written about in New York. 

Menu

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I need a drink. That's exactly the sort of thing that sends me over the falls....

[BCinBC]

Their most popular breakfast item is "The Dump Breakfast".  It's four pages and the type is microscopic.

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I assume it's the menu that's 4 pages long, not just the description of the "Dump Breakfast". But I am quite curious as to what is in the "Dump Breakfast". I keep picturing Mr Creosote from The Meaning of Life ordering everything mixed up in a bucket, with the eggs on top.

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I for one would like to see Mike put a Tie-Fighter on the roof, bearing down on the X-Wing. And put neon tubing up so it looks like the Tie is firing on the rebel scum.

ETA: I forgot to actually post about the topic! I was going to say that I like fixed menus - they don't have to be reserved for higher-end restos. Just offer 2 or 3 choices on starters, 3 of meat/fish/poultry/veg options for mains, and a couple of desserts or cheese plate. The fact that everything is fresh/seasonal, and that the chef has put some thought into it rather than having the standard choices of burger/pasta/steak/etc, is much more appealing to me.

Edited November 4, 2005 by BCinBC (log)

[MelissaH]

OMG!!!!

Mike's Place is less than a mile from where I used to live! It was always a favorite bike ride restaurant destination: I'd leave the house on my bike, meet the gang wherever we were meeting, we'd do our ride and wind up at wherever our breakfast spot was, and then ride back to our start point (if that's where you'd left a car) or home (usually in my case).

I hadn't thought about their hash browns in about two years, and then you had to go bring this up and bring back all kinds of memories. Whaddya have to go do that for?

MelissaH

Damn it... There's a local greasy spoon that has a HUGE (and hilarious) menu that I wanted to post, but they've taken it off of their site.  Damn.  Their most popular breakfast item is "The Dump Breakfast".  It's four pages and the type is microscopic.  Each item has a little blurb about it written by Mike.     

I wish I could get my hands on the damn thing... it's so perfect when you see the outside...

Yeah, that's a model X-Wing Fighter. 

But wait, there's more...

Yeah, that's a bus.  They have booths in it.  Yeah, that's a castle.  They have a banquet hall in there.  I had my rehearsal dinner in there.  It was quite... um... regal.  Yeah, regal.

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[M.X.Hassett]

You want an excessive menu, try Shopsins, the place Calvin Trillian has written about in New York. 

Menu

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I need a drink. That's exactly the sort of thing that sends me over the falls....

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What Chris said, well maybe two drinks and a cig.

The thing that bothers me with very lengthy menus is that I find it hard to beleive that the ingredients could be fresh and that the chef could keep a handle on all of the dishes. I always picture the sysco boxes stacked in the walkin.

[Susan in FL]

Either that's not happening here, or I don't go to places where it is happening. I have not encountered an expanding number of items on menus. I dine out about once a week.

I must say though that I agree with Rooftop in not understanding why anyone would order meatloaf in a restaurant, unless it's some super special specialty or novelty, or....... no....... I do not understand why anyone would order meatloaf in a restaurant.

Actually, last night when I went out to dinner with a friend, my thoughts about the menu included my pleasure with the number of choices on the menu. I like this restaurant a lot, and I was thinking about why I do. There are perhaps eight choices for appetizer/tapas/first course -type selections; that was followed by six or eight main course salads or "light plates"; then listed were about the same number of fish and seafood dishes; and finally there were four to six meat entrees. What is more unusual about this restaurant's menu is the wine list. They have an excellent wine list, but the selection is very limited -- just one or two fine examples of each major variety. That's a novel idea. Every glass of wine I've ever had there is superb.

[lesfen]

Sorry Melissa... two years is a long time to go without thinking about Mike's Place. I too lived within riding distance of Mike's place... actually, two apartments in either direction! Now it's just a short car ride away. Sigh.

I just wish I could get a menu to post. It really is the perfect menu for this thread.

As for the dump breakfast, I can't remember everything that's in it, but I know that involves homefries, various breakfast meats, eggs, and hot pepper rings. Ugh. I have heartburn just thinking about it.

I actually let them cater my wedding, if you can believe that!

[Pan]

That Shopsin's menu is sick!

But one thing I'd caution everyone about is that some very good Korean restaurants have long menus. OK, I don't think any of them could touch that 12-pager, but 6 pages wouldn't be out of line.

[M.X.Hassett]

That Shopsin's menu is sick!

But one thing I'd caution everyone about is that some very good Korean restaurants have long menus. OK, I don't think any of them could touch that 12-pager, but 6 pages wouldn't be out of line.

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It is interesting that I have found that Korean and Chinese restaurants can have long menus and the quality does not decrease as opposed to other restaurants.

[Shalmanese]

You want an excessive menu, try Shopsins, the place Calvin Trillian has written about in New York. 

Menu

The scary thing is that most things are pretty good (certainly not everything, but most things) and the menu changes regularly.  About every other visit I either ask about something that is gone or order something that the staff comments is new.

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Oh gawd, that thing is horrendous.

[BarbaraY]

OMG! Some of that stuff sounds absolutely disgusting!

[moosnsqrl]

This reminds me of SoCal breakfast/lunch/dinner places that serve all 3 all day long. We crawl in there after a rough night on the beach and they hand us menus that we can barely lift, let alone digest (pardon the pun). But the high volume places sell enough of all of those things that they're actually quite good most of the time and there are times I'm grateful for the variety, otherwise we would never be able to decide where to go. I'm thinking of the Harbor House in Sunset Beach, Kinda L'Haina (sp?) in Seal Beach and the like.

If you're in Ann Arbor and not hell-bent on Zingerman's, try a meatloaf sandwich at Casey's Tavern. You may have to rethink the 'don't order meatloaf in a restaurant' adage.

But the KISS rule for menus is still the best, IMHO. Although this doesn't meet the criterion of telling how the food is prepared, I like the simple list of ingredients concept (as pasted below, no way to link to it, I'm afraid).

Main Course

Alaskan King Salmon, Braised Pork, Potato Noodles, Local Beets, Horseradish Emulsion

Hake, Seven Vegetables, Pistachio, Saffron, Lemon Verbena

Campo Lindo Hen, Summer Squash Risotto, Parmesan, Corn Emulsion

Alaskan Halibut, Artichokes, Fava Beans, Fingerlings, Olives, Whipped Fumet

Scallops, Garlic Milk, Wide Noodles, Snap Peas, Spinach

Veal Rib Chop, Heirloom Peppers, Spring Garlic Confit, Potato Beignets

Berkshire Pork Loin, Glazed Turnips, Crispy Gnocchi, Smoky Garlic Vinaigrette

Wagyu Beef Sirloin, Oyster Mushrooms, “Mirepoix”, Brown Butter

[Zach Holmes]

On the other end of the spectrum, there is a restaurant where i live that sells russian dumplings, the menu is ..

"meat" - $5

"potato" - $5

served with bread, seasoning salt, hot sauce and sour cream, perfect after-bar food

[mizducky]

I must say though that I agree with Rooftop in not understanding why anyone would order meatloaf in a restaurant, unless it's some super special specialty or novelty, or....... no....... I do not understand why anyone would order meatloaf in a restaurant.

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Weeeeellllll ... I dunno if I'd order meatloaf at just any restaurant. But a hot open-face meatloaf sandwich with gravy and mashed potatoes is one of the glories of classic diner fare. I've ordered that in diners a lot. Just sayin'.

And speaking of diners, some of them have traditionally had relatively lengthy menus. They are indeed hard to navigate when one hits the diner at 3am after a night of booze and loud rock music, but for me that's sorta part of the charm.

Another type of establishment which traditionally features menus that go on forever is the classic Jewish-style deli. Here's a typical example from a local exemplar of the form.

But at least these places have a unified concept, so that all the bazillion dishes are mainly variations on a relatively few themes (diner: breakfast plates, dinner plates, burgers, sandwiches, etc.; deli: sandwiches, Jewish specialties, smoked fish plates, etc.), so once you've got the general schema down, you can navigate the menu relatively easily. Perhaps even more importantly, the cooks have got the general schema down, so that they can throw together, say, any of numerous variants of three-egg omelettes or overstuffed deli sandwiches with high accuracy and quality.

But compare this to those mid-level restaurants with humongous menus trying to be all things to all people. The mid-level chains like Cheesecake Factory seem to be the worst offenders in this regard. CF's online menu actually boasts "There is truly something for everyone!" But that philosophy produces a menu in which there are 29 "specialties" alone, leaping from Italian to Tex-Mex to Asian to several varieties of American regional to I dunno what-all else--plus pages of pizzas, steaks, sandwiches, and oh yeah, I guess they still sell cheesecake too, huh? Now that kind of menu, in which there is no organic relationship between any of the bazillion items offered, makes no sense to me whatsoever. Further, I have an exceedingly difficult time believing that any one kitchen staff can do justice to all those dishes from all those divergent backgrounds. (Of course, when it's a chain like the Cheesecake Factory, I have an exceedingly difficult time believing that the majority of their food isn't shipped in mostly pre-cooked portions from a corporate commisary... )

Edited November 5, 2005 by mizducky (log)