Kitchen Lighting Help?

[Eliza Cross]

I've gotten some terrific, practical kitchen design ideas by reading the eGullet boards and archives, so I thought I'd seek your collective wisdom about my latest dilemma. We moved eight months ago into a typical 70's suburban home, which I'm slowly fixing it up. The kitchen is pretty average-sized for that era, and has been updated. There were decent maple cabinets, I installed a new stove and refrigerator, and the countertops are practical - if bland - beige Silestone.

The lighting, however, is atrocious. There are just two funky hanging fixtures and a 3-light number over the sink that is truly hideous (pictures to follow in a minute). I've been waiting to replace the lighting because I was trying to figure out how to camouflage the dark wood beams that grace the slanted ceilings. However, a local realtor recently told me that the beams were fake! So I carefully pried one off last weekend, and sure enough, it was a hollow artifice of three pieces of crumbly wood-grain-embossed fiberboardy stuff, painted dark brown. So my dad is going to help me remove the rest of the "beams" and then the lighting can be installed.

My main priority is good, practical task lighting plus some ambient lighting for atmosphere. If the solution happens to add some flair or color to the kitchen, all the better. The house needs plenty of work so I can't spend a fortune on lighting. I love "do it yourself" projects and I'm game to tackle anything, but the most ambitious electrical project I've ever completed was installing dimmers. The slanted ceiling adds a challenging dimension. I welcome your ideas and promise to share the outcome with everyone. Now for the photos:

[Anna N]

I can't offer much in the way of what to do but I know a lot about what NOT to do! We replaced our kitchen light because it was boring and did not provide sufficient light. We fell in love with halogen fixture with 3 adjustable lights and 3 non-adjustable lights. It does the job light-wise but the heat it generates is unbearable! We are now searching for a better solution. Beware of halogens except as task lighting.

[Eliza Cross]

We fell in love with halogen fixture with 3 adjustable lights and 3 non-adjustable lights.  It does the job light-wise but the heat it generates is unbearable!  We are now searching for a better solution.  Beware of halogens except as task lighting.

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Thanks, Anna. I have always admired those halogen fixtures but now I'll cross that option off my list. I am lusting after these pendant lights to hang over the "peninsula," part of the counter, but they are $280 each plus the canopy ($80 each) and installation -- probably in the neighborhood of $850 just for two lights that are more pretty than functional. *Sigh.*

[Anna N]

Thanks, Anna. I have always admired those halogen fixtures but now I'll cross that option off my list. I am lusting after these pendant lights to hang over the "peninsula," part of the counter, but they are $280 each plus the canopy ($80 each) and installation -- probably in the neighborhood of $850 just for two lights that are more pretty than functional. *Sigh.*

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They are LOVELY and I am betting you can come close and pay much less if you shop around long enough. Good luck.

[Eliza Cross]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that you can use inexpensive rope lights for undercabinet lighting. Has anyone every tried this?

[snowangel]

My folks, too, hate their halogen lights. The bulbs can be funky, and expensive.

Have you looked at IKEA? They have some really cool under counter lighting. I don't advocate the rope lights. One of my kids had them in their room, and when a light goes out, you pretty much have to replace the entire rope, and depending on where you live, they are not available year round.

I don't have a slanted ceiling in this kitchen, which makes lighting much easier. I'm embarrassed to say that I haven't replaced the main kitchen light (I have a galley kitchen which is quite small, and is is one of those flourescent fixtures (4' long) with some sort of transluscent cover (Paul calls it a 4' cloud fixture) which is great, now that I've fixed the switch.

One of the things you need to think about is the holes in the ceiling from the existing fixtures. Should you remove and replace them, and don't choose stuff for the same places, you will have ceiling repair to do. If it's a sprayed ceiling with that popcorney stuff, add another $300.00 to the bill.

Have you thought about doing the electrical yourself? Map out the circuits (don't trust the tabs on the box). Turn everything on (and plug stuff into every outlet). One of you is at the box, the other inside. Turn a circuit off, figure out which outlets and lights are attached to said circuit and write it down (in ball point, not felt tip, which can bleed). It is possible to do this alone, but it is a nasty job.

Then, just turn the circuit that is attached to the fixture you want to replace, and it's pretty easy. Electrical is color coded, and the instructions included with lighting fixutres is usually very explicit.

Doing it yourself gives you a great sense of pride, and really extends the budget.

Edited to add: Rather eclectic collection of 70's lighting you have! Have you thought of under soffit lighting?

[Marlene]

Yes but snowangel, you revel in power tools and stuff. I'm going to thirdly oppose halogen, even for under cabinet task lighting. The house I have now has halogen potlights and under cabinet halogen lighting. As Anna says, they generate a ton of heat. So much so, that I almost never turn on my under cabinet task lighting. (They tend to melt the butter if you leave it under them!)

IKEA is a great idea for funky and affordable lighting. In fact , this funky lighting might have come from there.

[Dave the Cook]

Eliza, is the ceiling the same height all the way across? And do the two pendants line up? Meaning: are they the same distance from the outside wall? Is the white/clear one (foreground in the second picture) positioned to be over a table?

[Eliza Cross]

Eliza, is the ceiling the same height all the way across? And do the two pendants line up? Meaning: are they the same distance from the outside wall? Is the white/clear one (foreground in the second picture) positioned to be over a table?

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No, the ceiling is angled up - the west side is about 8 feet tall, and the east side is about 13 feet tall. The two hanging lights don't line up at all. The more vertical one sort of hangs in the middle of the central work space, while the more horizontal one - the foreground in the second picture - is over a stainless steel table.

HOWEVER, I should humbly mention that one of my newfound skills is patching drywall. There was a great article in a recent issue of American Handyman magazine (given the penchant for power tools on this site, should they rename it "American Handyperson"??) about how to do it. I just successfully patched two holes in the ceiling from last week's plumbing leak so I'm feeling confident - although, admittedly, I haven't tried an angled ceiling yet.

Thanks for your thoughts; I'm off to the Ikea web site now to check out fun and funky fixtures. Here in Colorado we are severely deprived and we don't have Ikea yet, so I'll have to see what they have in the catalog.

[Chris Amirault]

I wish I could provide good answers, but I think I mainly have more not-quite-rights...

I'll toss my hat into the IKEA ring, at least for quick fixes. We're very happy with our cheap-o four-spot fixture (which replaced a hideous ceiling fan) as a temporary solution, along with another four-spot that's drilled into the cabinet to the upper right of the sink. Between the two, we get pretty decent coverage.

However, it isn't perfect, and there are definitely dark spots here and there, most egregiously over the stove and in one corner. I think part of the problem is that bodies create shadows that spot ceiling lights make even more annoying; meanwhile, the cabinet four-spot shines its light somewhat horizontally onto the stove, creating shadows in high-sided pots.

Surely there must be some better ways to think about this. Anyone a lighting designer out there? Daddy-A?

[Katie Nell]

While I hate to be an advocate of it, The Home Depot (or Lowe's... it's pretty much the same thing!) has some pretty cool, funky cheap stuff sometimes!

I also love West Elm for reasonably priced decor: http://ww1.westelm.com/index.cfm?src=hme

[Eliza Cross]

Okay, most of the light fixtures at Ikea are only available in stores; however, I discovered Bellacor, which has a wide assortment of well-priced blown-glass pendant lights. There are a number of nice ones; the hard part will be narrowing down the choices.

A few questions: Has anyone personally installed recessed lights, and if so, do you have any tips to share? With a slanted ceiling I'm thinking I might have to hire an electrician if I go this route. 6 or 8 can lights + slanted ceiling = expensive project, don't you think?

Secondly, I looked at undercabinet lights and they all seem to have either halogen bulbs or fluorescent tubes. Based on everyone's comments, halogens are too hot. Fluorescents are ugly. Does anyone out there have undercabinet lighting they are happy with?

Here's what I'm considering right now: Recessed lights over the counters, two or three fun & funky pendant lights over the peninsula, and some sort of ceiling light to fill in the shadows. And maybe some good undercabinet lighting if it's out there.

Last question: Did anyone happen to see the Form Nasielsky wineglass chandelier in Food & Wine this month? I thought it was cool, albeit probably a dust magnet. $270 isn't bad, though...

[Fat Guy]

I'm in a position to speak about fluorescent versus halogen undercabinet task lighting, because I've had both. When we first renovated our kitchen a few years ago, I installed Hera Slimlite fluorescent fixtures. They have some advantages: they're extremely thin, which means you can usually install them behind the lip of the cabinet without the need for a light rail to conceal them; they consume very little power; they run pretty cool (they don't generate noticeable heat on the countertop, but they will soften chocolate on the bottom shelf of the cabinet); they provide extremely even light along the length of the fixture. The quality of light is not bad at all, especially if you put the warm white bulbs in. The problems with these fixtures are twofold: first, the bulbs are more expensive to replace than even obscure halogen bulbs; and second, the fixtures are flimsy. I'm sure they're great for glass cabinetry in which you're displaying art objects, but they wither when exposed to the heat, vaporized grease and vibrations of a kitchen. Over a period of just a few years, I had to replace all but two of the fixtures and all of the mounting clips. So, as everything started to wear out for the second time, I switched to halogen.

I am not exactly the poster child for up-to-code electrical work. The way I wired the halogen lights was this: I bought twenty of them at Home Depot. They cost almost nothing -- it was maybe a hundred bucks for all of them. They're supposed to plug into wall sockets. I ignored that advice. I just cut each cord to length, tied them together in several groups and hooked them into the same wires that had been supplying the fluorescent lights. So the same wall switches operate them. They support the wattage, so I wasn't worried. The halogen lights have pros and cons. Pros: the quality of light is fantastic, very clear and natural; the fixtures are very slim, not as slim as a Hera Slimlite but slim enough to be concealed by the lip of the cabinets; the Home Depot lights (sold under the Hampton Bay brand) don't require any special transformers; and it's easy to group them so as to provide the right amount of light for each place in the kitchen -- for example I have them clustered closer together in my primary work area than over the rarely used narrow counter on the other side of the kitchen. Cons: they do produce heat, though not so much that I mind; they use more power than the fluorescents; and of course halogen bulbs are notoriously expensive and inconvenient to replace. However, for now at least, you can get the bulbs at Home Depot for something like $2.99. I plan to stock up.

So, so far, I prefer the halogen. Even if I had fluorescent lights of a higher level of durability, I'd still prefer the quality of light from the halogens -- thought it would be a closer call.

[snowangel]

Eliza, putting recessed lights in a dry-walled ceiling is a bitch. Plain and simple. You have to cut the holes and run the wires between them if you want them to operate on a single switch. (unless there is crawl space up above.)

Moving one of the pendant lights so they are even is also a tremendous amount of work. New hole, moving the electrical stuff, etc.

Do you like the slanted ceiling? If not, consider dropping it.

I'm amazed at all of the awful lighting fixtures that were so prominent in the 60's and 70's.

[Fat Guy]

A drop ceiling makes it incredibly easy to install recessed lighting, as well as the attendant wiring. However, installing a drop ceiling is probably harder than installing lights in a non-drop ceiling. Also, remember that there's no law that says wiring has to be concealed. You can surface-mount your wiring all the way from the switch to the lights. You just get the wide flat wires and match the color and it looks totally fine. Or you can make a statement with a contrasting color. In our kitchen, we have a drop ceiling, but in another room we have an impossible wiring situation so we surface-mounted the wires and I don't think anybody has ever noticed or cared. I'll try to post some photos later. Also, for crying out loud, if you have all that great high ceiling space please, please, please put up a big pot-rack!

[MelissaH]

What about LEDs? Are they used for in-home lighting anywhere yet?

MelissaH

[Eliza Cross]

Also, for crying out loud, if you have all that great high ceiling space please, please, please put up a big pot-rack!

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I have a confession to make. While I like pot racks, and I certainly admire those who have pot racks, I myself am not a pot rack person. I'm one of those freaks who likes all the pots and pans and dishes and glasses nicely tucked away in cabinets. (Which means that if I bought the Form Nasielsky wineglass chandelier I'd have to stock it with glasses that were purely decorative, I guess.)

Even though I don't like pot racks, will you still give me lighting advice?

The exposed wiring ideas definitely gave me something new to think about. A drop ceiling is, I think, difficult if not impossible because the slanty ceiling runs the length of the house - and from the kitchen into an open family room. I'll call an electrician Monday and get an estimate on getting recessed lights installed. Anyone want to guess? How about this; the person who guesses closest to the actual estimate will win one of my 1970s light fixtures!!

[Mottmott]

Okay, most of the light fixtures at Ikea are only available in stores; however, I discovered Bellacor, which has a wide assortment of well-priced blown-glass pendant lights. There are a number of nice ones; the hard part will be narrowing down the choices.

A few questions: Has anyone personally installed recessed lights, and if so, do you have any tips to share? With a slanted ceiling I'm thinking I might have to hire an electrician if I go this route. 6 or 8 can lights + slanted ceiling = expensive project, don't you think?

Secondly, I looked at undercabinet lights and they all seem to have either halogen bulbs or fluorescent tubes. Based on everyone's comments, halogens are too hot. Fluorescents are ugly. Does anyone out there have undercabinet lighting they are happy with?

Here's what I'm considering right now: Recessed lights over the counters, two or three fun & funky pendant lights over the peninsula, and some sort of ceiling light to fill in the shadows. And maybe some good undercabinet lighting if it's out there.

Last question: Did anyone happen to see the Form Nasielsky wineglass chandelier in Food & Wine this month? I thought it was cool, albeit probably a dust magnet. $270 isn't bad, though...

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I have under the counter zenon lighting (12 v). It's relatively pricy, but I love it. It's a strip into which you push the little individual lights, as few or many to be spaced as you wish. I placed them at the front of the cabinets behind a decorative molding that masks them, so the light is right over the work space and you don't normally see the fixture as you do when the lights are in back against the wall.

edited to add: heat is no problem with this system

Edited September 11, 2005 by Mottmott (log)

[Eliza Cross]

I have under the counter zenon lighting (12 v). It's relatively pricy, but I love it. It's a strip into which you push the little individual lights, as few or many to be spaced as you wish. I placed them at the front of the cabinets behind a decorative molding that masks them, so the light is right over the work space and you don't normally see the fixture as you do when the lights are in back against the wall.

edited to add: heat is no problem with this system

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I wasn't familiar with these lights, so I did an online search. Mott, I think this may be the perfect solution! Here's one supplier of Xenon lighting. (I found the lights spelled as both Zenon and Xenon, but infinitely more with the "Xenon" spelling.) They have these low-voltage strips that have a profile of just 7/8 inch in the front; do you think this would eliminate the need to add trim along the bottom of the cabinets?

[Fat Guy]

Are xenon lights really all that much cooler than halogen? The information I got when I was researching lighting was that they are 15% cooler, which I consider to be insignificant. They are, however, quite expensive.

[Mottmott]

I have under the counter zenon lighting (12 v). It's relatively pricy, but I love it. It's a strip into which you push the little individual lights, as few or many to be spaced as you wish. I placed them at the front of the cabinets behind a decorative molding that masks them, so the light is right over the work space and you don't normally see the fixture as you do when the lights are in back against the wall.

edited to add: heat is no problem with this system

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I wasn't familiar with these lights, so I did an online search. Mott, I think this may be the perfect solution! Here's one supplier of Xenon lighting. (I found the lights spelled as both Zenon and Xenon, but infinitely more with the "Xenon" spelling.) They have these low-voltage strips that have a profile of just 7/8 inch in the front; do you think this would eliminate the need to add trim along the bottom of the cabinets?

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If you use these lights, spring for the dimmer switch. It's rather pricy as you must get one that is specially made for the type of transformer you use. But I think it's worth it as it's really very pretty when you're not working on the counter to use it light the kitchen without the overhead lights.

In my opinion, one of the benefits of this light is that you can mask it and not have the bare light in your eyes when you are sitting down for breackfast or a snack. The lights at the BACK of the cabinets are unattractively visable imo. Also, you'd be surprised at how finished it looks having that horizontal strip running the length of your cabinets.

Most mfgrs of cabinets now make a variety of moldings, but you can also probably find something at the lumber yard that can be finished to match - or contrast with your cabinets. I wish I had a digi cam so I could show mine to you, but it was finished by the mfgr for me to match my cabinet and has a recess in its profile that takes a strip of laminate that matches the color of the counter below it. It gives a really customized appearance.

Just one note of caution. If you do install the horizontal molding if you need to use more than one length, be sure that where you butt the two pieces that you cut them at an angle so they overlap and there is no gap and barely a visible seam. The person who installed mine didn't do that and it annoys me no end whenever I notice it. Fortunately, it's in an inconspicuous spot.

[snowangel]

If you use these lights, spring for the dimmer switch.

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VERY good point. IMHO, every light fixture should be on a dimmer switch. Rooms that you enter with arms full of stuff should also be on motion sensors (like the laundry room).

[Mottmott]

If you use these lights, spring for the dimmer switch.

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VERY good point. IMHO, every light fixture should be on a dimmer switch. Rooms that you enter with arms full of stuff should also be on motion sensors (like the laundry room).

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I agree with you, and I have all my fixtures withg incandescents on dimmers. On the other hand I have replaced many incandescents with those flourescent replacement bulbs which can't be on dimmers. Now I've got to look into those motion sensors.

[Fat Guy]

Under-cabinet task lighting should always be installed at the front edge of the cabinets. Cabinets are half the depth of countertops, so placement at the front edge of the cabinet centers the lights and illuminates the active workspace (the front half of the countertop). If you install the lights at the rear edge of the cabinets, against the walls, you won't have task lighting. You'll have accent lighting for your walls.

Most cabinets have a lip along the front edge. It may be 1/2" or 3/4", but it is usually enough to conceal a 1" light. Many people purchase expensive, difficult-to-install light valances to increase the lip, but unless you want the valance for its beauty (some people do), it is unnecessary. Remember, as a matter of perspective, the lights do not have to be shorter than the lip, because a person standing in the kitchen is looking down at the lip. In my kitchen, to anybody taller than about 4' 10", the under-cabinet task lights are invisible. At some point, of course, when the person viewing the cabinets is shorter than the cabinets, the lights will be visible no matter what.

This is the setup I just installed in July:

The wiring is inelegant, but so what? Nobody ever sees it, and I did it myself for free in about three hours. As for the lights, the expense was insignificant: for reference, it's Home Depot part number 161609 from Hampton Bay, "WHITE 20W HALOGEN CABINET LIGHT 5-LT KIT." For $29.96 you get five of those lights. So if you need twenty of them in your kitchen, you'll be spending $119.84 for an entire kitchen under-cabinet task lighting installation that uses existing line voltage and switches. That's $5.99 per light, and yes they come with bulbs. Many of these fancier fixtures cost something like $50 or more each, before you even get into transformers and special dimmers. And their light quality often isn't as good as the Home Depot halogens. The replacement bulbs for these units are available at minimal cost -- something like $1.99 (the Home Depot site is down right now, otherwise I'd look it up). But even if you just bought whole fixtures to use as replacements, took the bulbs out of them and threw the fixtures in the garbage, it would only cost you $5.99 per bulb!

[Anna N]

...

Most cabinets have a lip along the front edge. It may be 1/2" or 3/4", but it is usually enough to conceal a 1" light...

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I just checked and there is NO lip on my cabinets - the base is flush with the cabinet doors. Oh well.

Still, this thread did inspire me to do SOMETHING about the situation in my kitchen. I removed two of the five halogen bulbs! Voila - ambient lighting remains adequate, heat reduced by 100 watts. Still need to solve the problem of task lighting though.

Edited - clumsy fingers

Edited September 12, 2005 by Anna N (log)