Smoke free patios

[Chocoholic]

The description of Watermark as a smoke free restaurant (inside and out) and an article in the Sun today regarding possible legislation for smoke free patios has me hoping that patio dining will become a viable option again. For me, digging into a plate of lovely food, bringing that forkfull of aromatic goodness to your mouth only to be enveloped in a waft of cigarette smoke is like putting your roadster accidentally in reverse while cruising down the highway at 120 km/h. It pretty much ruins the experience.

I wonder what the sentiments of fellow Vancouver foodies are surrounding this delicate subject. One of the great benefits of living in Vancouver as opposed to back in Europe where I grew up is having the ability to lead a smoke free life. Except while on a patio that is. How I love to see that change!

[Sam Salmon]

Had lunch 2 weeks ago @ Rangoli and asked Vij to put out the gawd awful incense he had burning near us.

He explained it was to cover the reek from the smokers-indicating the other diners.

I had no idea he allowed people to smoke on the patio and was momentarily stunned at the prospect-also a bit trapped as to time/options for lunch with my companion.

Luckily lunch was tasty and no one ignited but I doubt I'll be back until he cleans the place up.

[nwyles]

Smoking on Patios in Vancouver:

We have a no smoking policy in restaurants in B.C. but the lines get a little blurred when concerning patios.

I have to tackle this every now and then as people do not want other people to smoke on the patio. My response is usually something like " The City has yet to regulate the great outdoors yet" . And then I offer them a seat inside. What can you do ? Between a rock and a hard place.

There certainly could be an argument made by the public that the patio is an extension of the restaurant : it has to be insured and rent is paid on the property to the City so it could be regulated. The closing times certainly are regulated with great enthusiasm by the city. Some might see that as a triumph for the

non - smokers but possibly persecution for the 16 % of our population who smoke. It really is a no win situation.

In my experience, smokers have a stronghold grip over the locations that they go to with their social group. They lobby hard to go to establishments that have relaxed smoking rules or large covered patios and will dine outside in all kinds of weather. One smoker will drag three other people to a table outside even if it is a little cool to dine. Why is that ? Are people just being polite or do they not care ?

Look at the popularity of the totally covered, nearly fully enclosed patios at Joe Fortes and the Sandbar. Talk about skirting around the smoking bylaws. The Sandbar's patio is almost fully enclosed on all sides with permanent structures and still qualifies as a patio and not interior dining. I have not been to the Sandbar in a couple of years but would assume this is still the case. I was in Joe Fortes a couple of weeks ago and there were people puffing away.

Are there any other patios that are "quasi " enclosed and allow smoking ?

[Keith Talent]

Chance that this remains civil is about the same as Moxies tying Wilsons for the Vanmag Restaurant of the Year. I'm suprised that it's only tobacco smoke that disturbs people, not car exhaust, or at Rangoli, copious diesel fumes fron the busses incessantly going by. Anyway, there is a place you can go if the foibles of others interfer with your personal definition of pleasure. It's called home. It's somewhere that you can avoid any and all unpleasant contact with yopur fellow man.

[nwyles]

Chance that this remains civil is about the same as Moxies tying Wilsons for the Vanmag Restaurant of the Year. I'm suprised that it's only tobacco smoke that disturbs people, not car exhaust, or at Rangoli, copious diesel fumes fron the busses incessantly going by. Anyway, there is a place you can go if the foibles of others interfer with your personal definition of pleasure. It's called home. It's somewhere that you can avoid any and all unpleasant contact with yopur fellow man.

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Would your wine cellar be available to all that showed ?

[BCinBC]

On one hand you're asking for more leniency with alcohol on patios, but on the other you want stricter laws on tobacco on patios. Personally I would rather see looser laws on these particular items all-around, and then restaurants could choose whether they would be smoking / non-smoking, or alcohol / no-alcohol, or whatever. I as a consumer (and a member of free society) would actually then be able to make a choice myself.

Okay I admit I would really prefer to live in a totalitarian state too, except it would be my totalitarian state, not yours.

Governing mother nature, though, that's a different story. I for one can't wait until we can regulate the speed of the wind on patios, because my napkin blowing around can be a real bummer.

[Chocoholic]

I guess it is all about what is generally accepted in soceity. Arguments about free choice, etc. don't really hold up. I don't smoke but like to listen to heavy music every once in a while, perhaps even over lunch. I wonder what would happen if I dug up my old ghetto blaster and some obscure but highly offensive Swedish death metal and planted myself in a patio full of smokers and let it rip. Would be a fun but short lived experiment for sure.

[canucklehead]

Chance that this remains civil is about the same as Moxies tying Wilsons for the Vanmag Restaurant of the Year....  Anyway, there is a place you can go if the foibles of others interfer with your personal definition of pleasure. It's called home. It's somewhere that you can avoid any and all unpleasant contact with your fellow man.

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I had lunch with someone I had not seen for a long time - and he was complaining about people nattering in languages other than english in restaurants and how he found that really irritating (he says this while staring right at a Chinese man - namely me). Huh!?

Anyways.... to keep on topic - another friend of mine said how she felt lucky not to be seated near smokers while on the Bridges patio, so she has taken the 'that's the price you pay for sitting outside' attitude. I generally fall into that category also - that's life in the big city (or smallish medium in Vancouver's case). I've noticed that Lift's roof deck is enclosed by glass walls (with an open ceiling) and I was there with a cigar smoker. No one seemed to care.

Finally - Moxie's - what's with their crotch shots billboards? Frankly - staring at splayed open legs is not going to get me into a CFD estabishment. Perhaps I am in the prudish minority.

[Jaymes]

I wonder what would happen if I dug up my old ghetto blaster and some obscure but highly offensive Swedish death metal and planted myself in a patio full of smokers and let it rip. Would be a fun but short lived experiment for sure.

So true. One person's "I should be free to enjoy myself" is another's "Fine, as long as you don't disturb me."

Actually, this analogy reminds me of that old comedy album (although I can't recall who recorded it) that included this hilarious bit:

"Mind if I smoke?"

"Not at all; mind if I fart?"

[Keith Talent]

That smells like George Carlin.

[Keith Talent]

I wonder what would happen if I dug up my old ghetto blaster and some obscure but highly offensive Swedish death metal and planted myself in a patio full of smokers and let it rip. Would be a fun but short lived experiment for sure.

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That analogy is about as bad as the service at White Spot. It assumes that the management gave a blessing for your Swedish death metal (I personally prefer Danish death metal, but there's no accounting for taste.) If management wasn't on side with your plan, they'd be well within their rights to ask you to leave, much like Watermark has done with gaspers. If management was onside, those of us that far prefer Danish metal could choose to patronize establishments where they play vastly superior Danish metal and not totally craoppy Swedish metal.

[Sam Salmon]

Caper's of course is smoke free-isn't Feenie's as well?

[Keith Talent]

Actually, if you dug up your old ghetto blaster, you'd be looked at inquizitively by kids sporting I-pod ear buds.

[Jaymes]

That smells like George Carlin.

Ah yes, hilarious, and apt analogy as well. Thanks.

[BCinBC]

I guess it is all about what is generally accepted in soceity.

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Agreed - although I don't think smoking is that well accepted, especially here in Vancouver. For example, this thread.

That analogy is about as bad as the service at White Spot.

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Agreed (on the apt-ness of the analogy; White Spot comments I'll step aside).

Smoking is is not the same as Swedish (or any Scandanavian) death metal. It is slightly similar to unusually loud talking, except that is allowed inside and outside. People around the offender may be disturbed or may frown, but it is also perfectly legal and even somewhat common. All this while (you could argue) it is potentially dangerous to human health (in this case, ear drums). Ban smoking and we might as well ban loud talking.

[Chocoholic]

Fair enough, I didn't mean to have a smokers vs. non-smokers argument (I have had many of those, they all end in a stalemate), just wanted to know what people thought of the smoke-free patio argument that has come up lately.

I still think it is too bad that on a lovely summer day I am forced to eat inside because, on a patio (away from traffic and diesel exhaust, there are plenty of those) it is far too likely the table next to you will start producing noxious fumes. It boggles my mind how people can eat and smoke at the same time.

PS The Danes weren't too good at death-metalling. The Norwegians however took it to new extremes.

[Keith Talent]

Are you kidding me? The freaking vikings invented death metal. Beowolf was Rob Zombie long before Rob Zombie was even wearing Pampers.

Agreed, anything smoke realted is a non-starter, no possible rational discussion can develop. It's unfortunate that we're not all more considerate of other people, it seems to be some sort of genetic trait not to be.

[Daddy-A]

Caper's of course is smoke free-isn't Feenie's as well?

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Thanks Sam. Finally a regional comment in a regional forum. Let's keep this about Vancouver. Further discussion of smokers rights or Danish Death Metal (the Norwegian Goth-Rock trumps all of you btw) needs to take place in the General forum.

Thanks

Arne

[ivan]

That smells like George Carlin.

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Yes, it does sound like George Carlin, which is why that bit is attributed to him.

But it was actually Steve Martin who coined it.

[2roost]

Lift has both a smoking and non - smoking Patio, I think Cactus Club offers the same option though Lift's patios are on different levels so there is no chance of "second hand", I also believe that the 2nd floor Patio at Bridges, for the dining room, is non smoking. Any other nominations?

[peppyre]

Lift has both a smoking and non - smoking Patio, I think Cactus Club offers the same option though Lift's patios are on different levels so there is no chance of "second hand", I also believe that the 2nd floor Patio at Bridges, for the dining room, is non smoking.  Any other nominations?

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Unless of course the non-smoking patio is above the smoking patio. It reminds of the days when you had smoking and non-smoking sections on a plane. Yes, it really made a difference sitting in non-smoking...in the row BEHIND the smoking section

[janevm]

Although Watermark's General Manager David Richards is proud to point out that it is a non-smoking restaurant, both inside and out, some people are apparently above the law. The night we were there, some of our city's finest, in full regalia, had their Harleys parked just outside the front door, puffing away on their fags, smoke wafting upstairs to diners on the patio. Wonder if they were on overtime policing Kits beach, or simply enjoying the new hang out? One cop was there for at least two hours. I actually saw him smoking when I arrived and when I left.

Lift has both a smoking and non - smoking Patio, I think Cactus Club offers the same option though Lift's patios are on different levels so there is no chance of "second hand", I also believe that the 2nd floor Patio at Bridges, for the dining room, is non smoking.  Any other nominations?

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Unless of course the non-smoking patio is above the smoking patio. It reminds of the days when you had smoking and non-smoking sections on a plane. Yes, it really made a difference sitting in non-smoking...in the row BEHIND the smoking section

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[FannyBay]

Although Watermark's General Manager David Richards is proud to point out that it is a non-smoking restaurant, both inside and out, some people are apparently above the law. The night we were there, some of our city's finest, in full regalia, had their Harleys parked just outside the front door, puffing away on their fags, smoke wafting upstairs to diners on the patio. Wonder if they were on overtime policing Kits beach, or simply enjoying the new hang out? One cop was there for at least two hours. I actually saw him smoking when I arrived and when I left.

I must have been walking the dogs past there the same night you were there janevm. Either that or that's the place that all cops who smoke go for their collective breaks. One cop was smoking a huge cigar the night I was there!

Before Watermark's GM gets to crow about how progressive they are, the Parks Board is actually who made the patio non-smoking as they are mandating non-smoking on all patios leased from them. There is no smoking on the patio at the Galley Bistro, upstairs from Jericho Sailing Club either. As for Feenie's, and other places that are under strata council rule, the strata council can dictate smoking rules so if the homes above Feenie's were bothered by the smoke, then it can be mandated as a non-smoking area. I am going to hazard a guess that's what happened.

There was a lot of news this week on CBC radio about the Coastal Health Authority considering banning smoking on all outdoor patios. This is based on a 66% increase in complaints from non-smokers that they can't sit outside to dine anymore due to the smoke. Now, being that the health department is involved and there have been no studies showing the damage of cigarette smoke outdoors, they cannot dictate patio's non-smoking like they have been able to do indoors. However, they can recommend to City Hall, and the governments in various other local municipalities, that they mandate patios as non-smoking. While places like Burnaby and Richmond should be fine, we in Vancouver stand a very good chance that those bleeding hearts in Vancouver City Hall, including whacko's like Fred Bass, who is a fervent anti-smoker, may well try and go for it. My advise to restaurants is to nip the complaints in the bud by having non-smoking sections on their patios and keeping those sections away from any entrance or windows into the restaurants if they can. Banning cigars until after dinner hours like 10 or 11:00 (which I think C does) and finally, vote those bloody Cope, Cope Light, Cope Classic, and all their other splinter groups the hell out of local government.

[Foodie in Vancouver]

The smokers on the patio can also ruin a very nice meal for those indoors as well. We were enjoying a perfectly lovely meal at Raincity Grill when a table of 4 were seated on the patio and immediately started smoking - nonstop. Before the food, with the food and after the food. As well, they were drinking substantial amounts of wine. Not suprisingly, the breezes were blowing the smoke straight into the restaurant. It was awful. Waiter and the manager asked them to please stop smoking as diners in the restaurant were being affected by their smoking. Unfortunately, this was not a very courteous nor I suspect, intelligent group. They continued to smoke but now did so with running commentary. Restaurant did their best but to no avail. I am quite allergic to smoke - we left before our main course. Too bad but by this pont I had such a dreadful headache I could barely see. Was I upset - you bet. I think the sooner we ban smoking anywhere considered public, the better. Smoke your life away in the privacy of your own home - but please nowhere near me. And especially while I paying to eat in an environment I expect to be smoke free.

[*Deborah*]

I am an ex-smoker (pack a day for 20 years). I always smoked in my house, but seldom outside, as I'm up high and it's always breezy, and I always felt like I wasn't getting half the cigarette anyways. Aside from that, I always tried to be a considerate smoker, as family members didn't smoke, and even when I did smoke, I didn't particularly like others' smoke in my face while eating, etc.

Fast-forward to present day, and I find I'm often closing my doors/windows to escape my neighbours' cigarette (and other) smoke, since they're the sort who won't smoke in the house, but only outside...where it happily flows into *my* house. Nothing like having your living room reek like a Greatful Dead concert when you've never been a dope smoker.

I'm sure there's some kind of irony to this...

On patios, it's all about the wind, and it's pretty impossible to keep smoke away from others in a lot of situations.