North African food in America

[Milagai]

It's funny because I learned that from my in-laws side, originally from Indiana.  They want all amerian food, nothing too adventurous.  Also when I moved to Colorado.

Growing up in the Detroit area I was pretty oblivious to the rest of the state and midwest- We had a huge Chaldean/arabic community in my city and lots of wonderful Chaldean and Lebanese restaurants and markets within a few miles.  We also had a lot of other foods like eastern european and a little bit of everything.  My best friend's mom made the most amazing dolma and lamb and basmati rice and pickled vegetables and baklava and ....    I always wanted to eat at her house and she always wanted to eat at mine.

We didn't have many north african arabs in the area though and so didn't have any north african places though unfortunately.  This thread sure has gotten me craving something even resembling north african though. 

One of the mistaken notions people have about Moroccan cooking is that it is highly spicy.

In conservative markets such as the one where I live the "but it's too spicy" misperception describes who most people perceive Afghani, Persian, Vietnamese, Thai, Jamaican and darn near any other cuisine that they have never tried.

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It finally dawned on both of us that too spicy for her husband and in-laws meant ANYTHING THAT STRAYED TOO FAR FROM BASIC SALT AND PEPPER!!! This would include many of the spices found in Moroccan, Indian, Ethiopian, Middle Eastern, Thai etc. cuisines. What these people seemed to have an aversion to was actually too much flavor. I don't think there's anyway to overcome that hurdle.

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heh heh! reminds me of a cartoon i saw a few years ago:

the caption was "fine herbs and spices of indiana"

and the picture was of a salt shaker, pepper shaker, and a packet

of sweet and low.

i could start wondering WHY are people afraid of flavour then i remember

there are several i am probably afraid of too...

milagai

[chefzadi]

Being frank, I think there are two main perceptions that the general unadventurous public has of North African restaurants:

1) They heard of someone going to one and eating with their hands.

2) They're places to go check out belly dancers.

and I'll add a more recent perception due to what seems to have been a trend a few years ago...

3) They're a place to go try out a hookah.

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Thank you Ed for your frankness about the unadventurous crowd.

Well, judging by the responses in this thread (many which are sincerely helpful), I get the impression that there are lots of misperceptions about North African foods. 1. I've never been to one that doesn't provide utensils. 2. I've never been to one with belly dancers (not that difficult to avoid). 3. Same, never been to one with a hookah, although that doesn't seem that unappealing.

Also, seems that there is a segment of America that's being discussed that won't try anything that's perceived as too different. On the other there is a market for lots of other so called 'ethnic' cuisines. And really there are many Algerian dishes that are just as mild as French dishes. I've said this in numerous other threads, the Algerian cooking I grew up with was very mild and delicate. The odd thing is in my experience Americans ask for spicier. Whenever I teach a class on the subject or cook for American friends, "Oooh spices, exotic flavors!!!" So there's a market for that and a market that resists that.

I also think that maybe writers exoticized North Africa and the cuisine too much.

[Milagai]

Being frank, I think there are two main perceptions that the general unadventurous public has of North African restaurants:

1) They heard of someone going to one and eating with their hands.

2) They're places to go check out belly dancers.

and I'll add a more recent perception due to what seems to have been a trend a few years ago...

3) They're a place to go try out a hookah.

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Thank you Ed for your frankness about the unadventurous crowd.

Well, judging by the responses in this thread (many which are sincerely helpful), I get the impression that there are lots of misperceptions about North African foods. 1. I've never been to one that doesn't provide utensils. 2. I've never been to one with belly dancers (not that difficult to avoid). 3. Same, never been to one with a hookah, although that doesn't seem that unappealing.

Also, seems that there is a segment of America that's being discussed that won't try anything that's perceived as too different. On the other there is a market for lots of other so called 'ethnic' cuisines. And really there are many Algerian dishes that are just as mild as French dishes. I've said this in numerous other threads, the Algerian cooking I grew up with was very mild and delicate. The odd thing is in my experience Americans ask for spicier. Whenever I teach a class on the subject or cook for American friends, "Oooh spices, exotic flavors!!!" So there's a market for that and a market that resists that.

I also think that maybe writers exoticized North Africa and the cuisine too much.

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just what is so ** wrong about eating with your hands?

this q is not directed at chefzadi or anyone in particular;

just a thought / vent. but if someone has an answer that

makes any sense then i would love to hear it.

why is distancing yourself from your food by using metal

claws something superior?

there is an entire etiquette for eating politely with your fingers

i heard a quote attributed to someone or other:

eating your food with a knife and fork is like making love

with your clothes on.....

milagai

[chefzadi]

just what is so ** wrong about eating with your hands?

this q is not directed at chefzadi or anyone in particular;

just a thought / vent. but if someone has an answer that

makes any sense then i would love to hear it.

why is distancing yourself from your food by using metal

claws something superior?

there is an entire etiquette for eating politely with your fingers

i heard a quote attributed to someone or other:

eating your food with a knife and fork is like making love

with your clothes on.....

Milagai I've posted about this before.

Traditionally Magrhebis eat with our hands, sometimes from communal platters. Of course there is nothing wrong with it. But people who aren't used to don't get nor do they always understand it. And eating with one's hands as you know has it's own etiquette, which someone who is dining at a restaurant probably doesn't want to be taught on the spot.

My point is the utensils are available in North African restaurants.

[prasantrin]

I'd guess that the Arab population in Winnipeg is small (probably just a few thousand) ...  There was one Lebanese family that opened a pita bakery / restaurant down the street from my family's own kosher place.  But there definately isn't a strong presence in these parts.

True! There was an influx of Iraqis a few years ago, but many moved elsewhere (as is common for immigrants/refugees who settle first in Winnipeg) and those still here are not the restaurant types, I guess.

There was also a Lebanese place on Hargrave several years ago, but that did not last, either.

My phonebook lists one Mediterranean restaurant - the Falafal Place - which is owned and operated by an Israeli.  We have one Moroccan restaurant (which I didn't know about) and that's it.  In a city of 700 000, there aren't many options. 

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While not North African, two of the Junior's hamburger places are owned by a Palestinian family. They have the best falafel in the city, in my opinion, and their homemade hot sauce is excellent. The last time I had the chicken gyros, though, I was not as pleased. Not quite as flavourful as it used to be (but it could have been an off day).

My mother went to the Moroccan place shortly after they opened last year. The people were very friendly, she said, but the food was just OK. I think at the time she went, they had few customers (in general) so the food was not as fresh as it could have been. We're planning to try it again--have to do it soon in case they close!

A new place has also opened on either Sargent or Ellice. I don't know where the owners are from, though. It looks like a casual place and advertises schwarma, falafel, baba ganoush, etc. Will probably get there later this week to try it out!

[Almass]

just what is so ** wrong about eating with your hands?

this q is not directed at chefzadi or anyone in particular;

just a thought / vent. but if someone has an answer that

makes any sense then i would love to hear it.

why is distancing yourself from your food by using metal

claws something superior?

there is an entire etiquette for eating politely with your fingers

i heard a quote attributed to someone or other:

eating your food with a knife and fork is like making love

with your clothes on.....

Milagai I've posted about this before.

Traditionally Magrhebis eat with our hands, sometimes from communal platters. Of course there is nothing wrong with it. But people who aren't used to don't get nor do they always understand it. And eating with one's hands as you know has it's own etiquette, which someone who is dining at a restaurant probably doesn't want to be taught on the spot.

My point is the utensils are available in North African restaurants.

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Funny this hand eating statement.

Do you know that the largest percentage of people on this planet eat in fact with their hands!

And wait a minute, are you not supposed to eat a Hamburger with the hands and what about a Pizza, did I mention Hot Dogs or Spare Ribs, BBQ anybody? Anyone heard of a Sandwich?

[Eden]

And wait a minute, are you not supposed to eat a Hamburger with the hands and what about a Pizza, did I mention Hot Dogs or Spare Ribs, BBQ anybody? Anyone heard of a Sandwich?

Actually there are people who will eat all of the above with silverware. I had one friend who not only ate her fried chicken with a knife & fork, she ate her jello that way too! She wasn't unadventurous food-wise, just silverware obsessed the idea of her scooping up a tidy handful of couscous is simply un-imaginable...

[NulloModo]

Is North African food the same as middle eastern, or are there important differences? There is a big morroccan place around here (which oddly enough is right next to the North, DE strip club district, and they apparently used the same decorator) called Casablancas, which is what has been mentioned before, belly dancers, big show made of the meal, etc. I have, however, been generally impressed by the food there, then again, I am pretty easy to please. But at only $20 per person for a seven course meal and entertainment, it is hard to beat.

My favorite is a place that just calls itself 'Middle Eastern' though The decor is the same half opium den/half house of ill-repute style, but it is fun. The food is actually very very good, and the prices are incredibly (ridiculously) cheap. They have the full array of cous-cous dishes, kebabs, hummus, etc, but some more adventurous things as well. I love the middle-eastern salads, the morrocan chicken, and this great slow-cooked eggplant in tomato and spices dish (the name of which I can't recall). It used to be one of the few places I would go to which didn't accept plastic (though I thought the sign in the front window that read "I do not recognize the credit card" was cute). Since then they have wised up to the fact that 99% of the people in Newark only carry plastic, and I don't even have to worry about that anymore.

When I was in L.A. a while ago (staying with a friend in West Hollywood) I really wanted to eat at this Ethiopian place we walked passed nearly every day. Unfortunately the person I had gone out there with seems to share the generic 'I won't want to risk anything new' boring attitude. So, instead of African cuisine we went for African-American cuisine at Roscoe's Chicken and Waffles (which I don't consider to be a biased comment as every time I have been there I have been there my party has been the only group of white-folk in the establishment). I can't really complain about Roscoe's, as it is some incredibly good food, and I'd look like Paul Prudehomme if one opened up around here, but still, I would openly embrace more North African/Middle-Eastern restaurants in this area.

[Behemoth]

Last Saturday we had a party and one of the guests, upon spotting the Paula Wolfert book on my bookshelf, exclaimed "couscous? Why would you need a whole cookbook about couscous? You just open the package and boil some water."

Andrew, you will be amused to know that at least three of the Moroccan restaurants in Philly are owned by Lebanese. Quite frankly I would be surprised to hear that they've actually been to Morocco more than once or twice.

Then there's that nasty moroccan carrot salad everyone seems to bring to hippie vegan picnics along with their leaden and pasty hummus.

I'm just saying, given the quality of "North African" foods most people around here have been exposed to, it will probably take a while before the cuisine gets popular.

[SuzySushi]

Then there's that nasty moroccan carrot salad everyone seems to bring to hippie vegan picnics along with their leaden and pasty hummus.

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Which nasty Moroccan salad recipe? I have several recipes for North African carrot salads! I hope the nasty one isn't among them!

[chefzadi]

Last Saturday we had a party and one of the guests, upon spotting the Paula Wolfert book on my bookshelf, exclaimed "couscous? Why would you need a whole cookbook about couscous? You just open the package and boil some water."

Andrew, you will be amused to know that at least three of the Moroccan restaurants in Philly are owned by Lebanese. Quite frankly I would be surprised to hear that they've actually been to Morocco more than once or twice.

Then there's that nasty moroccan carrot salad everyone seems to bring to hippie vegan picnics along with their leaden and pasty hummus.

I'm just saying, given the quality of "North African" foods most people around here have been exposed to, it will probably take a while before the cuisine gets popular.

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I see the problem very clearly now. It's mediocre Moroccan food prepared by Lebanese.

(That's a joke between me and Behemoth)

Word on the street is that some entrepreneurs are planning a new sort of coopereative franchise concept with lots of hands on training and quality control for casual Magrhebi cuisine. Just wait a couple of years.

[Behemoth]

I see the problem very clearly now. It's mediocre Moroccan food prepared by Lebanese.

(That's a joke between me and Behemoth)

Dude, we've been trying to undermine you guys ever since we sent that b**** Elissa to Carthage in 813 BC.

[Milagai]

just what is so ** wrong about eating with your hands?

this q is not directed at chefzadi or anyone in particular;

just a thought / vent. but if someone has an answer that

makes any sense then i would love to hear it.

why is distancing yourself from your food by using metal

claws something superior?

there is an entire etiquette for eating politely with your fingers

i heard a quote attributed to someone or other:

eating your food with a knife and fork is like making love

with your clothes on.....

Milagai I've posted about this before.

Traditionally Magrhebis eat with our hands, sometimes from communal platters. Of course there is nothing wrong with it. But people who aren't used to don't get nor do they always understand it. And eating with one's hands as you know has it's own etiquette, which someone who is dining at a restaurant probably doesn't want to be taught on the spot.

My point is the utensils are available in North African restaurants.

←

Funny this hand eating statement.

Do you know that the largest percentage of people on this planet eat in fact with their hands!

And wait a minute, are you not supposed to eat a Hamburger with the hands and what about a Pizza, did I mention Hot Dogs or Spare Ribs, BBQ anybody? Anyone heard of a Sandwich?

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ITA re the above foods, and lots of wackos eating them with silverware.

some wonky westernized indians also try and eat dosais, parathas,

and idlis with silverware, for howling out loud.

now another q: ethiopia is or is not part of the maghrebi culture belt?

ethiopian restaurants are fairly widespread, at least in larger urban areas.

and i don't recall seeing any one eating with utensils in those, they are

also communal style eating....

i can't conceptualize how one could even eat injera with anything other than

fingers......

so, is ethiopia part of the discussion on north african foods?

if yes, why do ethiopian restaurants have a higher profile?

(despite negative press on famines, civil wars etc.)

milagai

[chefzadi]

so, is ethiopia part of the discussion on north african foods?

North Africa includes Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, sometimes Libya. Libya is also considered a Middle Eastern country even though geographically it is in Northern Africa.

f yes, why do ethiopian restaurants have a higher profile?

(despite negative press on famines, civil wars etc.)

Restaurants, perhaps. The cuisine, I'm not sure. Are there any Ethiopian cooking threads here?

[Milagai]

so, is ethiopia part of the discussion on north african foods?

North Africa includes Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, sometimes Libya. Libya is also considered a Middle Eastern country even though geographically it is in Northern Africa.

f yes, why do ethiopian restaurants have a higher profile?

(despite negative press on famines, civil wars etc.)

Restaurants, perhaps. The cuisine, I'm not sure. Are there any Ethiopian cooking threads here?

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oho! so egypt too would be considered more middle eastern

than north african?

milagai

[chefzadi]

oho! so egypt too would be considered more middle eastern

than north african?

Yes.

Short answer.

The long answer about Arabic speaking peoples would take up volumes and it has.

[Pam R]

oho!  so egypt too would be considered more middle eastern

than north african?

Last time I was in Egypt... it was in North Africa

[Pam R]

hmm... can I get a definition of Middle East? Which countries are included? Thanks! ;)

[Pan]

[...]I've said this in numerous other threads, the Algerian cooking I grew up with was very mild and delicate. The odd thing is in my experience Americans ask for spicier. Whenever I teach a class on the subject or cook for American friends, "Oooh spices, exotic flavors!!!" So there's a market for that and a market that resists that.

I also think that maybe writers exoticized North Africa and the cuisine too much.

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Couldn't this also have something to do with Angelinos' love of jalapenos, salsa verde, etc.?

[Wolfert]

see the problem very clearly now. It's mediocre Moroccan food prepared by Lebanese.

Word on the street is that some entrepreneurs are planning a new sort of coopereative franchise concept with lots of hands on training and quality control for casual Magrhebi cuisine. Just wait a couple of years.

Are these entrepreneurs calling North African food 'maghrebi'? If so, they

most likely come from the Middle East, perhaps even Lebanon.

Doesn't Maghrebi mean the land to the west?

[chefzadi]

see the problem very clearly now. It's mediocre Moroccan food prepared by Lebanese.

Word on the street is that some entrepreneurs are planning a new sort of coopereative franchise concept with lots of hands on training and quality control for casual Magrhebi cuisine. Just wait a couple of years.

Are these entrepreneurs calling North African food 'maghrebi'? If so, they

most likely come from the Middle East, perhaps even Lebanon.

Doesn't Maghrebi mean the land to the west?

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Maghrebi means west, but it is a common term used by North Africans. If you go to a French search engine and type in keyword "Maghreb" or more specifically "Cuisine du Maghreb" you will get a lot of hits.

[Wolfert]

Chefzadi:Thanks for the correction.

Instead of going on the web looking for the magrebi sites you suggested, I went to your blog.

This is the sort of food blog I've been waiting for ---a rich, illuminating one.

[chefzadi]

Chefzadi:Thanks for the correction.

Instead of going on the web looking for the magrebi sites you suggested, I went to your blog.

This is the sort of food blog I've been waiting for ---a rich, illuminating one.

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Thank you so much for the compliment Paula. I just started it last week. It's a multi-author blog. I'm slowly inviting writers from all over the world to post about topics where they are knowledgeable about. The topics include food (of course), travel, art, literature, architecture, etc.

The basic criteria is that the writer's be passionate and informed.

[Almass]

see the problem very clearly now. It's mediocre Moroccan food prepared by Lebanese.

Word on the street is that some entrepreneurs are planning a new sort of coopereative franchise concept with lots of hands on training and quality control for casual Magrhebi cuisine. Just wait a couple of years.

Are these entrepreneurs calling North African food 'maghrebi'? If so, they

most likely come from the Middle East, perhaps even Lebanon.

Doesn't Maghrebi mean the land to the west?

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One has to look slightly deeper in the meaning of Maghreb which you might find of interest.

We have to take into account two words: Maghreb and Mashreq

Both in fact have been given to an area which spans the Islamic world at the time of the Fatimid with Egypt being the centre and the Nile being the demarcation line. Therefore we are not talking about Norh/East/West...etc but we are talking about the sun rising and setting over the Islamic map which is the Maghreb west of the Nile and Mashreq east of the Nile.

In the strict etymological Arabic translation of West would be Gharb or The West would be Al Gharb. However Maghreb or Al Maghreb is both the time of day for sunset and Salat el Maghreb would be the prayers at sunset and same apply for Sharq - Al Sharq and Mashreq which is sunrise.

So Maghreb is the west of the Nile where the sun sets on the Umma.

[Milagai]

see the problem very clearly now. It's mediocre Moroccan food prepared by Lebanese.

Word on the street is that some entrepreneurs are planning a new sort of coopereative franchise concept with lots of hands on training and quality control for casual Magrhebi cuisine. Just wait a couple of years.

Are these entrepreneurs calling North African food 'maghrebi'? If so, they

most likely come from the Middle East, perhaps even Lebanon.

Doesn't Maghrebi mean the land to the west?

←

One has to look slightly deeper in the meaning of Maghreb which you might find of interest.

We have to take into account two words: Maghreb and Mashreq

Both in fact have been given to an area which spans the Islamic world at the time of the Fatimid with Egypt being the centre and the Nile being the demarcation line. Therefore we are not talking about Norh/East/West...etc but we are talking about the sun rising and setting over the Islamic map which is the Maghreb west of the Nile and Mashreq east of the Nile.

In the strict etymological Arabic translation of West would be Gharb or The West would be Al Gharb. However Maghreb or Al Maghreb is both the time of day for sunset and Salat el Maghreb would be the prayers at sunset and same apply for Sharq - Al Sharq and Mashreq which is sunrise.

So Maghreb is the west of the Nile where the sun sets on the Umma.

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Thank you! this is exactly what I was curious about, but too clueless

to ask properly about.

ANd it explains to me why Egypt (east of Nile) is not included

in the Maghreb region in the local view..

Thanks

Milagai