Best and worst non-French foods in France

Jonathan Day · July 11, 2005

Is Italian food better in Nice than Menton?

I haven't been overwhelmed by any restaurant in Menton itself. There are some nice places in the villages near Menton, ranging from the Hostellerie Jerome in La Turbie to some small but good places in nearby towns.

I found Italian food in Nice quite serviceable and, in one particular restaurant, memorable. And there was also a restaurant in Vieux Nice with a Corsican chef/owner that served very Italian-like food and was quite good.

Not knowing the names of any of the places you refer to, I can't say. But how would these restaurants compare to Balzi Rossi, for example, or Baia Benjamin, or any of the smaller places across the border in Italy? If my experience of "Italianesque" food in the area is indicative, not very well.

I guess I also feel like Provencale food generally is as much a regional Italian as a regional French style, and is one or the other mainly because of accidents of history that determined the current borders between the two countries.
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Well, here we get into the old arguments about whether there is a definitive category called "Italian" food (or "Provencal" food, for that matter); is Italian-American food a true variant of Italian food, etc.? And if that isn't enough, we could resurrect the Ingredients vs Technique debate...but let's not.

I will say that most of the dishes I've eaten in Provence and on the Riviera, even in places that specialise in "cuisine du soleil" and the like, seem more "French" than "Italian" to me. Deep frying doesn't seem to be used as often in France, and sauces seem to be cooked longer and pushed into deeper and more "cooked" flavours. Fish and vegetables are often fresh in France but not shockingly so, as is more often the case in Italy. Risotti and pastas in France tend to be good but not wonderful. French presentations tend to be slightly more complex. Sometimes the French cuisine is very good, sometimes more enjoyable than the Italian, but the two aren't the same, even near the border.

Ptipois · July 11, 2005

Nice is Italian in many ways and its cooking is a trans-border variation on the Genoese style of cooking. So I wouldn't describe the Italian restaurants there as completely "non-local".

This is true for the Comté de Nice, which was Italian until 1860 or so. But mind you, I cannot see how Provençal cooking could be described as "Italian", though naturally it shares quite a few features with its Eastern neighbor.

Fat Guy · July 11, 2005

I didn't make this determination, this is only the truth. Why do you find this so difficult to accept?

I don't find it difficult to accept. I find it impossible to accept. And I doubt I'm alone. Indeed, I would theorize that not a single person reading along here would agree with the absolutist position that no factor other than immigration is important in determining the spread of non-French restaurants in France, so much so that every single other factor -- supply and demand, the French palate, etc. -- is "quite unimportant."

The McDonald's chain as ethnic restaurants, and furthermore representative of the "non-french restaurant" situation in France? Surely you must be joking.

Once we get to the point where every challenge to the theory gets labeled a joke, we're going to be moving away from the truth, not towards it.

Bux · July 11, 2005

I think we begin to get into the Roshomon syndrome or perhaps the tale of the blind men and the elephant. When someone is famiiar with one area and not the other, or especially when one's experience is based on a visit or two in a particular season, no matter how acute that person is what's around him, the experience is limited. Consequently, the the insight that arises may be accurate as far as it goes, but not broad enough to paint the big picture.

"Italian-like" is also a very ambiguous term. The foods of Alsace may be very German-like to a Parisian or someone from Provence or the Cote Basque, but it's a world away from German cooking. I think there are distinct differences between the Catalan and Basque foods you will find on both sides of the Pyrenees. In all cases good points can be made about recently changing borders or about the artificiality of current political borders, but the differences are there.

Adam Balic · July 11, 2005

I haven't been to France for a while (but are off to the Haute-Savoie tomorrow, yay), but one thing that I would be interested in knowing is what types of cookbooks are on the shelves and how much this reflects what people are eating?

For example: Asian food is pretty dire (in my limited experience) in Florence, yet looking in a local bookshop there were numerous SE-Asian cookbooks and even a Italian language version of David Thompson's pink monster. Italian food porn?

The French seem to be historically pretty good at incorprating foreign foods and basically making them French. I can't see any reason why this process of sorting and assimilation should have stopped. The best obvious examples I have had are the North African and the worst is the Vietnamese. Could not stand the latter, it is more then possible that this is a flawed view.

As a naive traveller in Burgundy I saw home deliver 'couscous' everywhere (in Dijon), I thought it was French. Was quite surprised to eventually find out that this was not entirely true.

Edited July 11, 2005 by Adam Balic (log)

chefzadi · July 11, 2005

Several in this thread have expressed that of all the 'ethnic' cuisines in France, Maghrebi cuisine is the best represented, so much so that it doesn't even seem ethnic anymore.

The European and African sides of the Mediterranean have been in contact with eachother since the Romans. So the relationship is nothing new.

I can prepare any number of Maghrebi dishes authentically, traditionally just like my maman, aunts and grandmothers and I really don't think most non-Maghrebis would be able to tell the origins of the dishes. I can prepare an ancient steamed lamb recipe that would look and taste like it was prepared sous vide. So if Moroccan in Paris is being toned down, if the restaurant is renamed Western Algerian cooking than it becomes wholly authentic, but from a different region of the Maghreb.

It's not as simple as saying that Magrebi cuisine is becoming absorbed into French cuisine, because it's being adapted to the French palate. It's more that the diversity of Magrebi cuisine is becoming better represented.

Most French are aware of this. I've mentioned before that Albert Camus was born in Algeria and did not want to leave his beloved country. Jacques Derrida was born in Algeria and campaigned for the rights of Algerian immigrants in France, Isabelle Adjani is half-Algerian and has been outspoken in the past about Algerian immigrant rights. There's Zidane who has talked about racism. I mention these things because this thread has overlapped into culture and patterns of immigration. The relationship between France and the Maghreb (and the Maghrebi diaspora) is deep. For a country that may seem to Americans to be a little 'insular' or socially conservative that's a pretty good list of famous French people who are 'allowed' to question dominant society. French culture is complex and layered, to try to understand it from an American or even Dutch view of pluralism will create more misunderstandings, as evidenced by many posts regarding French eating habits. Cutting edge modern day cultural anthropology indeed.

Let's take the example of North African restaurants in France. Maghrebis and Pied noirs flooded into France after the end of colonialism. This is my parents generation. Most come to do hard labor jobs, many Maghrebis are illiterate. Not really the type of folks to open up alot of restaurants even if the French want them. The initial few are small, humble places. The second generation Magrhebis like myself. The North African restaurant scene in France is moving beyond the 'couscous joint' to cater to Maghrebis, not just the French. A quick google in French about this will provide lots of information. As for supply and demand and the French palate. Well it's already been determined that couscous is one of France's favorite foods. Also there are enough Magrhebis in France to support our own restaurants. So there is a demand for it. Why not more restaurants then? It is growing. But France is not a capitalist society. Immigrants to France don't come with the dream of opening their own business. A successful restaurant in France doesn't translate into a cash cow as readily as it does in the States. Also, opening a restaurant in certain neighborhoods is a very cumbersome process. The windows have to be a certain size, it has to fit into with the architectural history, etc... It can be very expensive.

Contrast the North Africans with the Koreans who came to the States beginning the 70's armed with cash, overall a higher level of education and an entrepreneural to capitalis friendly Los Angeles. Boom in one generation the Koreans have a self-sustaining economy and infrastructure. And enough restaurants to rival cities in Korea.

EDIT: I want to clarify that the rate of illiteracy was high with colonial Magrhebis, not with current Magrhebis in France or in the homeland. Also there was quite bit of literature written by literate Magrhebis during the time of colonialism.

Edited July 11, 2005 by chefzadi (log)

chefzadi · July 11, 2005

I didn't try Vietnamese in Paris, but I have tried it in LA/OC where there is no shortage of Vietnamese restaurants, some say possibly the best outside of Vietnam, maybe better given the current economic situation in Vietnam. Alot of the dishes are very mild with no chilis.
This is quite normal. There may be a lot of chilli in the Vietnamese diet (though never as much as in Thailand), but usually not directly in the food. The chilli is most of the time presented on the side, as a sauce or as whole fresh peppers to break up and add to your plate at table. Dishes and soups are served without chillis. So it is inaccurate to speak of "spiced down" Vietnamese food just because the dishes contain no chillies. The spiced-down versions are only the ones where no side dishes of fresh or pickled chillies are provided.
The natives oftentimes have highly refined versions of their own cuisines without having to create something new to cater to anyone else's tastes. Sometimes 'high' cuisine is temporarily lost through war, colonialism, economic challenges, etc...
As far as Asian food is concerned, catering to Western tastes often means serving a less refined version of the cuisine.
(as a side note to my fellow French. The featured French chef in Le Cordon Bleu North America informercial is none other than ME with my smiling Algerian mug. Are you proud of me? )
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Wow. Where can we see that?
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So true what you say about Asian cuisine. Panda Express anyone?

Couscous Royale in France. If that's not for tourists, don't know what else is.

The LCB commercial will air nationaly in the States. Don't know the time slots yet.

Pan · July 11, 2005

Nice is Italian in many ways and its cooking is a trans-border variation on the Genoese style of cooking. So I wouldn't describe the Italian restaurants there as completely "non-local".
This is true for the Comté de Nice, which was Italian until 1860 or so. But mind you, I cannot see how Provençal cooking could be described as "Italian", though naturally it shares quite a few features with its Eastern neighbor.
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I'm thinking of things like the prevalence of garlic, onions, tomatoes, and red wine, and also the emphasis on fresh green vegetables and herbs in an agricultural region.

Jonathan, I haven't been to the Italian Costa Azzurra; also, when I was in Nice, I was on a student's stipend. So my experience of food in Nice was on the cheap-to-moderate level. Also, I compared the quality of the Italian food there with what I experienced in the summer of 1991, again on a student stipend, in Lazio, Toscana, and Campagna, but especially Siena.

Ptipois · July 11, 2005

I don't find it difficult to accept. I find it impossible to accept. And I doubt I'm alone. Indeed, I would theorize that not a single person reading along here would agree with the absolutist position that no factor other than immigration is important in determining the spread of non-French restaurants in France, so much so that every single other factor -- supply and demand, the French palate, etc. -- is "quite unimportant."
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Well, what puzzles me is that I can't seem to figure out where you're headed to.

First you ask some precise questions about the "non-French restaurant situation" in France. Several have tried to answer, including me. I have answered truthfully, according to my experience. I have felt more than a little baffled by your reaction and the more you insist on it, the less I understand it. Then it sounds like you're willing to ask questions but not willing to get any answer, which leads me to think that you already have an answer of your own, so why ask questions in the first place?

Some here have tried to put forward some factors like, indeed, supply and demand, the French palate, vacation destinations, etc., and I wrote what I thought of it: regarding the Parisian situation they don't really appear as the dominant factor, and I have explained why. Now someone more skillful than me at supply-and-demand issues could probably apply their skills to the French situation and tell us about it. I don't think it would contradict my conclusions though. All I can vouch for is the way I have seen the restaurant map in Paris change for nearly thirty years, being also well aware of the distribution of restaurants area by area according to the different communities that settled there. What more can I say?

Now I have asked you to explain to me in what way exactly you believe, or rather know, that the "French palate" has played a role in the existence or nonexistence of restaurants in Paris (notwithstanding the fact that many non-French restaurants in Paris do cater to the immigrant communities in the first place). Being absolutely ignorant of this matter, I am waiting to learn from you. What I have noticed is that the "French palate" influences the taste of the food but not the existence of the restaurant. But there may be a "French palate" I have never met in my life, and perhaps it is fooling all around me while I'm totally unaware of it. I am expecting the same enlightenment from you concerning "supply and demand" because at this date I still don't grasp how precisely it functions in my own city, for I was under the naive illusion that the main thing, for instance, a Vietnamese restaurant needed in France was the existence of Vietnamese people to cook the food. And that the authenticity of the Vietnamese food was, in a large measure, conditioned by the existence of Vietnamese people to eat the food. This is not ironical at all, it is a true request, I'd really like to be pointed out what my eyes have been failing to see, because otherwise I can't see why you should be so irritated by my posts.

Edited July 11, 2005 by Ptipois (log)

Ptipois · July 11, 2005

I'm thinking of things like the prevalence of garlic, onions, tomatoes, and red wine, and also the emphasis on fresh green vegetables and herbs in an agricultural region.
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What makes you think this prevalence is exclusively Italian in nature?

Ptipois · July 11, 2005

Once we get to the point where every challenge to the theory gets labeled a joke, we're going to be moving away from the truth, not towards it.
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Allright, I get your point. So let's try something fun and get closer to the truth: take the original question of the thread and this is what we get:

Which non-French cuisines have flourished in France? Which are generally done well? Fundamentally, is there something about French culinary culture that inhibits non-French cuisines?

Well, MacDonalds has flourished in France. MacDonalds food is done very well in France (so I was told). No, I don't think there is something about French culinary culture that inhibits MacDonalds' cuisine.

For the specifics of how to get good Mexican, Chinese, etc., food in France, I'd suggest separate discussion topics, but in general what's going on here?

I'm afraid I am not competent enough on how to get good Mexican, Chinese, Indian, Srilankan, Vietnamese, North African, Lebanese, etc., foods, but in general MacDonalds is doing very fine here.

See my point?

Edited July 11, 2005 by Ptipois (log)

menton1 · July 11, 2005

I'm thinking of things like the prevalence of garlic, onions, tomatoes, and red wine, and also the emphasis on fresh green vegetables and herbs in an agricultural region.
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And of course, olive oil. But actually, the token "Italian" restaurants in Nice bear little resemblance to those in Italy, especially the ones 30 miles away in Liguria. Throughout France you will find "pâtes" and pizzas on bistro menus. But the really regional Italian dishes and the ways they are served are unique to Italy. Ligurian dishes also feature basil, green lasagna, and pesto. The Cote d'Azur does have a Soupe de Pistou, but it is quite different than the Italian versions.

As far as Menton, it is really a backwater for restaurants. Nice has some major fooding experiences, and as such would blow Menton away in just about every restaurant category.

jennahan · July 13, 2005

As for culinary pride. The French chef's culinary pride is different from the average non-chef French person's culinary (national) pride which really doesn't exist.
So true.
The most chauvinistic Frenchman, the most bloated with national pride, will gladly feast on nems, phat thai, fajitas, colombo, and particularly couscous (a national dish), as long as they're good. There is simply no correlation between his bigotry and his culinary tastes.
EDIT: strange trying to explain one's culture(s) to others.
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Yes, isn't it so?
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Really? This has not been my experience in the small town (5000 people) near Angers where my in-laws live. Not a non-Angevin restaurant for miles (actually, never seen one). I'm Korean American and am a decent cook of many different cuisines, and I try to cook for my in-laws when they come and visit, and they consider my Italian dishes "exotic"(hello...pesto is exotic?!?) and are not enthusiastic about eating foods which are unfamiliar. I remember going by a market where they sold aubergine and my MIL turned to me and said she didn't know how to cook it. My in-laws don't seem to be unique in there region-centric, and absolute uninterest (bordering on suspicion) of foods which are not familar.

chefzadi · July 13, 2005

Really? This has not been my experience in the small town (5000 people) near Angers where my in-laws live. Not a non-Angevin restaurant for miles (actually, never seen one). I'm Korean American and am a decent cook of many different cuisines, and I try to cook for my in-laws when they come and visit, and they consider my Italian dishes "exotic"(hello...pesto is exotic?!?) and are not enthusiastic about eating foods which are unfamiliar. I remember going by a market where they sold aubergine and my MIL turned to me and said she didn't know how to cook it. My in-laws don't seem to be unique in there region-centric, and absolute uninterest (bordering on suspicion) of foods which are not familar.

Well, yes. France is small compared to the US, but it is diverse in many ways. Your in laws are not unique, but they are not representative, no more than the Parisian is. Which goes back to my earlier point, "so strange to explain one's culture to others."

I lived and worked in Korea for a few years. Tiny country, lots of regional differences. I wouldn't presume to comment on Korean cuisine or what Korean people think about other cuisines based on visits to a few regions or by knowing even my wife's own family. Not that I think you suggested that about French people./

bleudauvergne · July 13, 2005

As for culinary pride. The French chef's culinary pride is different from the average non-chef French person's culinary (national) pride which really doesn't exist.
So true.
The most chauvinistic Frenchman, the most bloated with national pride, will gladly feast on nems, phat thai, fajitas, colombo, and particularly couscous (a national dish), as long as they're good. There is simply no correlation between his bigotry and his culinary tastes.
EDIT: strange trying to explain one's culture(s) to others.
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Yes, isn't it so?
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Really? This has not been my experience in the small town (5000 people) near Angers where my in-laws live. Not a non-Angevin restaurant for miles (actually, never seen one). I'm Korean American and am a decent cook of many different cuisines, and I try to cook for my in-laws when they come and visit, and they consider my Italian dishes "exotic"(hello...pesto is exotic?!?) and are not enthusiastic about eating foods which are unfamiliar. I remember going by a market where they sold aubergine and my MIL turned to me and said she didn't know how to cook it. My in-laws don't seem to be unique in there region-centric, and absolute uninterest (bordering on suspicion) of foods which are not familar.
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I've seen it both ways. My French Mother in Law is a breath of fresh air, I think this may come from some competition with her sister who lives nearby, always experimenting and following the latest international cooking craze. She is one of those madames who dyes her hair in the latest color and carries it perfectly. She loves my cooking and encourages me, which is very helpful.

I have also had a certain type of dinner guest, normally the more conventional type, usually the ones who extend invitations to my husband to picnic on some large plot of land with a crumbling chateau owned jointly by about 40 bickering cousins, who taste a terrine de foie gras which I have brazenly prepared with star anise and maple syrup and blandly say "interesting" because they're afraid to admit they like the way it tastes. They have this idea of how things should be properly prepared, and like Jenn says, feel that anything that strays from the norm is sacrelige. These are also the people at the dinner table who act as if I am not there, and ask questions about me to my husband, refering to me in the third person, because they think I might say or do something shockingly distasteful, if I were to actually speak, being from that country, you know.

As far as the best and the worst foreign foods, on the one hand, I'll reinforce the idea that colonial presence does have an impact on what foods are accepted here, which mixes in the presence of immigrants from these countries, but in a completely different way than the way immigrants brought their cultures with them to the US, for the following reasons: In France, in fact in Europe, the immigration experience is completely different than that in the US. In France, immigrant populations have been historically pushed to drop their cultural and religious identity, marginalized when failing to adapt at all levels, and caste into subservient roles that keep them struggling financially for generations. This is a fact. Only today is some semblance of equal opportunity opening to 2 and 3rd generation immigrants in France. While it is OK to open a restaurant serving North African specialties because the French developed an understanding of and acceptance of this type of food in a colonial context, and will be the clientele in these restaurants, In the US, the philosophy is somewhat different, where large populations of immigrants come, make money, and have the income to participate, thus fuel their local economies and encourage competition. This is why we find cheap ethnic variety in the US to a degree unequaled in France. Once you have diverse cultural populations becoming clients in their own restaurants, the quality improves, because they're no longer supplying a product which has been altered to suit what they think their customers might like. I don't think that French contemporary tastes have much to do with it on the whole. There is a large contingent of French who embrace international diversity, and there are still of course the ones who won't even think of trying anything new, but that is universal.

Culinista · July 13, 2005

Speaking strictly from my own experience living in Paris recently, I would largely agree with Bleudauvergne about the general French attitude towards foreigners and innovation.

I don't know the particular regulations, but I have also heard tales about enormous bureaucratic obstacles to immigrants opening restaurants. (One American had to open his soul food restaurant under his French wife's name.) I understand that all ventures face red tape, but is it worse for non-native entrepreneurs?

And it appears to me that some people are equating "ethnic" cuisine with "spicy" (and also implying third world). All cuisines, including French, are ethnic--regardless of spiciness. I could never understand why Spanish and Italian food was so generally poor in France, but then, the non-native food situation is just as bad if not worse in Spain and Italy. Anybody who orders pasta in Spain gets what they deserve.

French cuisine has traditionally been open to other cultures, and it is my impression that this current defensive posture to "protect" classic French food from foreign influence is a fairly recent phenomenon that is not doing anything to keep French food great. It's not like French cuisine is a static thing that does not change over time.

I am Japanese, and I was very disappointed in the level of Japanese restaurants in Paris and the availability of ingredients. Of all foreign cuisines, Japanese seems to have an intrinsic appeal to Parisians, but still they understood remarkably little compared to an average Californian. Why the failure to pursue knowledge? I was also amazed that people with discriminating palates when it comes to French food seemed taste-blind when it came to other cuisines.

Hopefully one day, the rest of the world will discover the full glory and artistry of Chinese and Mexican cuisines. The food cultures there are some of the oldest and most sophisticated in the world, and we all have a lot to learn.

Ptipois · July 13, 2005

Really? This has not been my experience in the small town (5000 people) near Angers where my in-laws live. Not a non-Angevin restaurant for miles (actually, never seen one). I'm Korean American and am a decent cook of many different cuisines, and I try to cook for my in-laws when they come and visit, and they consider my Italian dishes "exotic"(hello...pesto is exotic?!?) and are not enthusiastic about eating foods which are unfamiliar. I remember going by a market where they sold aubergine and my MIL turned to me and said she didn't know how to cook it. My in-laws don't seem to be unique in there region-centric, and absolute uninterest (bordering on suspicion) of foods which are not familar.
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Yes but I described a different character. I don't think your in-laws could be described as "bloated with national pride" and I don't think you would either. I am talking about a very definite kind of nationalist whose opinions have never prevented him or her from enjoying foreign food. In the provinces you will find people who feel intimidated by new dishes, as they will in any other country. In the Korean countryside, how many people would be instantly familiar with andouillette à la beaujolaise?

Ptipois · July 13, 2005

French cuisine has traditionally been open to other cultures, and it is my impression that this current defensive posture to "protect" classic French food from foreign influence is a fairly recent phenomenon that is not doing anything to keep French food great. It's not like French cuisine is a static thing that does not change over time.
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I think you are perfectly right.

chefzadi · July 13, 2005

In France, in fact in Europe, the immigration experience is completely different than that in the US. In France, immigrant populations have been historically pushed to drop their cultural and religious identity, marginalized when failing to adapt at all levels, and caste into subservient roles that keep them struggling financially for generations. This is a fact. Only today is some semblance of equal opportunity opening to 2 and 3rd generation immigrants in France. While it is OK to open a restaurant serving North African specialties because the French developed an understanding of and acceptance of this type of food in a colonial context, and will be the clientele in these restaurants, In the US, the philosophy is somewhat different, where large populations of immigrants come, make money, and have the income to participate, thus fuel their local economies and encourage competition. This is why we find cheap ethnic variety in the US to a degree unequaled in France. Once you have diverse cultural populations becoming clients in their own restaurants, the quality improves, because they're no longer supplying a product which has been altered to suit what they think their customers might like. I don't think that French contemporary tastes have much to do with it on the whole. There is a large contingent of French who embrace international diversity, and there are still of course the ones who won't even think of trying anything new, but that is universal.

LUCY! :wub:

Yes, you said it so much better than I.

I don't know the particular regulations, but I have also heard tales about enormous bureaucratic obstacles to immigrants opening restaurants. (One American had to open his soul food restaurant under his French wife's name.) I understand that all ventures face red tape, but is it worse for non-native entrepreneurs?

I don't know about that particular situation, certainly the American can obtain French citizenship fairly quickly. It takes two years after marriage and not just residency. It might have to do with his lack of credit in France, but again I don't know enough about that situation. The bureaucratic obstacles for anyone opening a business can be tremendous.

In the Korean countryside, how many people would be instantly familiar with andouillette à la beaujolaise?

Safe guess, almost none. Probably the same for Bakersfield, California.

zeitoun · July 13, 2005

I am Japanese, and I was very disappointed in the level of Japanese restaurants in Paris and the availability of ingredients. Of all foreign cuisines, Japanese seems to have an intrinsic appeal to Parisians, but still they understood remarkably little compared to an average Californian. Why the failure to pursue knowledge? I was also amazed that people with discriminating palates when it comes to French food seemed taste-blind when it came to other cuisines.
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I find the Japanese food scene in Paris quite interesting actually and agree with you that Paris is still one large step behind when it comes to quality and variety.

I find this surprising knowing that Japanese culture and society as you pointed out has left for many years somewhat of an imprint amongst many Parisian circles, yes in food but mainly in the arts and in fashion. Up until recently, and especially in the late 90’s, there was a growing trend in Paris for everything Japanese, Parisians flocked to see Takeshi Kitano’s movies, read Murakami’s novels, shopped at Yamamoto or Issey Miyake, ate at Nobu (which failed miserably btw) and had tea at Toraya. This is a gross generalization of course and certainly not representative of Paris as a whole but it is undeniable that there was a point in Parisian life where Japan was cool and in fashion. Conversely, France and French food culture also has had for many years an intrinsic appeal in Japan, many Japanese chefs have come to train in France and have also set up shop there. The best example of this is Sadaharu Aoki who owns one of Paris’ most illustrious pastry shop. So if the nexus does exist, why is Japanese food in general of such poor quality?

In the last 5 to 10 years Japanese restaurants have multiplied throughout the city at disconcerting levels. When I was younger and still Parisian at the time, Japanese restaurants in the city were almost all upscale and expensive. Today it seems that every Parisian street has along with your typical boulangerie, boucherie and primeur a small joint serving (quite distasteful in my opinion) yakitori and sushi. A sudden surge in Japanese immigration certainly does not explain this phenomenon since close to 90% of restaurants serving “Spécialités Nippones” today are owned by families of Chinese, Vietnamese or even Filipino origin. So I wonder, can this be one example of how local (in this case Parisian) popular demand has shaped the Non-French food scene in a specific part of France?

vserna · July 13, 2005

Anybody who orders pasta in Spain gets what they deserve.
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What a preposterous generalization. "Anyone who orders pasta in New York gets what they deserve." Heck, where in New York? Babbo or Angelo's of Mulberry Street? Where do you order pasta in Spain? Have you heard of Ars Vivendi in Majadahonda, of Taverna Siciliana in Madrid, of Galileo in Pereiro de Aguiar?

Not to mention that a number of pasta dishes (macarrones and canalones, particularly) are an integral part of traditional Catalan cookery, or that 'fideus rojos' and other assorted 'fideuàs' are terrific alternatives to paella on the Mediterranean coast.

I always avoid making sweeping generalizations about the culinary situation in countries I don't know well. I wish this were more frequent...

In general terms, foreign cuisines are better (and more widely) represented in Spain than in Italy, and at least as well as in France, albeit with possibly more variety in the case of Spain. For instance, the only 'serious' American restaurant I know in Europe is in Spain - Matthew Scott's Gumbo, in Madrid. Not to mention our Peruvian, Cuban, Filipino or Armenian restaurants.

touaregsand · July 13, 2005

I always avoid making sweeping generalizations about the culinary situation in countries I don't know well. I wish this were more frequent..

Let's all post this next to our computer screens.

It get even worse when specifics are discussed based on what someone's neighbor said.

Ptipois · July 13, 2005

[A sudden surge in Japanese immigration certainly does not explain this phenomenon since close to 90% of restaurants serving “Spécialités Nippones” today are owned by families of Chinese, Vietnamese or even Filipino origin. So I wonder, can this be one example of how local (in this case Parisian) popular demand has shaped the Non-French food scene in a specific part of France?
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Since the late 90's indeed, those fake Japanese restaurants have been sprouting in many areas. The quality is generally very low. I think it is more the result of a marketing calculation than of popular demand, for I don't think these places are doing that well. Some Southeast Asian entrepreneurs probably decided that the yakitori-sushi business was more profitable than the already-saturated "traiteur chinois" scene (where the quality is also quite low). These restaurants should not be, at any rate, confused with the true Japanese restaurants of Paris, which are at least better. I don't think the trend will develop much.

The process is the same as the "traiteur chinois" syndrome: once you start seeing a traiteur chinois in your street (generally replacing your local charcutier), and it's fine. Then you see two, then there are four of them between two metro stations. And finally you're sick of them and you never enter one anymore.

Edited July 13, 2005 by Ptipois (log)

Busboy · July 13, 2005

I'm thinking of things like the prevalence of garlic, onions, tomatoes, and red wine, and also the emphasis on fresh green vegetables and herbs in an agricultural region.
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What makes you think this prevalence is exclusively Italian in nature?
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It may be less obvious to the French, but any American going to note significant overlap between Nicoise/Provencal cooking and the cooking of Italy. Not surprising, given that Nice was more or less part part of Italy and various Italian kingdoms until 1860.

It seems rather unfair to annex part of another country and then claim that country's cooking as your own. The U.S. annexed a big chunk of Mexico, but at least we still call the food Mexican or Tex-Mex, giving credit where credit is due. :biggrin:

It's fruitless to argue who first put tomatoes, garlic and basil together or harvested the first artichoke but -- like the Nicoise writing on the buldings in the Vielle Ville -- I found the food of that region is a lot closer to the Italian border than it is to Paris.

Interesting website on Cuisine Nissard here.

menton1 · July 13, 2005

It's fruitless to argue who first put tomatoes, garlic and basil together or harvested the first artichoke but -- like the Nicoise writing on the buldings in the Vielle Ville -- I found the food of that region is a lot closer to the Italian border than it is to Paris.

I respectfully disagree. Firstly, Paris is not a good representative of any French regional food; rather, it is the giant melting pot of all of the French cuisines. French regional cooking is very very different from area to area. The "Nicoise" cuisine is pretty unique, you really don't see it anywhere else. From the namesake Salade Nicoise, to things like Pan Bagnat, Pissaladiere, and Socca, these are foods you would NEVER see in Italy.

As I said in my above post, the ingredients may be similar, but the food you will eat in Liguria, just 30 miles from Nice and the food in Nice is prepared and served very differently. Soupe de Pistou has basil, but it comes in a reddish color, rather than the bright-green pesto preparations across the border.

Yes, Nice east to the border was ruled by the Savoys until 1860, when Napoleon III cleverly "swapped" it in return for support of Italian unification. But probably the architecture (especially in Menton) would serve as a better reminder of the Italian roots rather than the food.

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