Random Kosher Questions

bloviatrix · June 2, 2005

For example: asparagus. Oy. Don't get me started. But since you already have: asparagus is a vegetable. It is, ipso facto, kosher. Full stop. However, bugs (of any sort), are not kosher. So, there are some Jews who go through the following thought process: asparagus, because of how it grows and what it is, is very difficult, if not impossible, to clean of bugs. Bugs can get stuck in the tips, under the leaves, etc. I can never know if I have removed all the bugs. Therefore, I have decided I will not eat asparagus, because I might be eating bugs with it, and bugs are not kosher.
That thought process has its own logic, but the important thing to remember is this: it does not mean that asparagus is not kosher. It means that some people, some groups, have decided not to eat it. This is really a crucial thought to remember when trying to figure out what is and isn't okay to serve to people. You really have to ask them. (I gobble asparagus like there's no tomorrow.)
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Actually, the standard operating procedure for asaparagus is just not to use the tips as the density of the buds makes it difficult to check them fully. It's easy to check the rest of the spear.
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But the same issue remains: standard operating procedure for whom? I know plenty of people who, unlike me, as for a rabbinical p'sak before doing things. And they eat asparagus. So I think that standard operating procedures are only standard within communities. They are not norms of Judaism altogether.
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Talk to mainstream orthodox mashgichim and they'll tell you just not to use the asparagus tips -- it's just too difficult to check them thoroughly. If you go into a restaurant or buy take-out from a place certified by one of the major kashruth agencies you'll never see the tips included in dishes that contain asparagus.

Edited June 2, 2005 by bloviatrix (log)

Gifted Gourmet · June 2, 2005

(oh wait: is wine kosher?)...

Easiest question first:

Yes, there are all sorts of kosher wines, reds, whites, sparkling, etc.

i have to decide if it's a dairy or meat meal, because it can't be both. so if i make courgette-potato latkes w/ sour cream, there can be no meat in the meal?

Quite correct. If you use dairy ingredients, there will be nothing made with meat, including chicken. Fish is what is often served with dairy .. I do it all the time!

umm, got any tips on dinner party planning for kosher-keepers?

Most certainly! I make some very nice fish entrees or even a dairy entree (lasagna, quiches, like that) and add appetizers, sides, and a lovely dessert ... since one can make everything dairy, what a cool opportunity to use butter and sour cream and those delicious items ...

I actually prefer to use dairy as my theme because I can do much more inventive, creative cooking .. with meat, less so (for me anyway).

Susan G · June 2, 2005

OK, so say i'm planning a dinner party, and i've gauged the degree of 'observancy' of my kosher-keeping friends. what are some of my first decisions, re: menu planning?
--i have to decide if it's a dairy or meat meal, because it can't be both. so if i make courgette-potato latkes w/ sour cream, there can be no meat in the meal?
--but i could maybe serve like a wine-poached salmon (oh wait: is wine kosher?)...
umm, got any tips on dinner party planning for kosher-keepers?
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Not a Friday night or Saturday night. A vegetarian meal (say, baked manicotti) is going to be easiest on everyone who is concerned about mixing meat and dairy, or the bona fides of kosher meat. Buying a new (disposable) aluminum pan for a baking/serving dish would be a nice touch: Something that has *absolutely* never had meat in it. There are kosher wines, but I don't know of any good ones. Can anybody chime in on this one?

I hired someone who kept stricly kosher, even during 24 hour shifts away from home.......it was his theory that part of the historical reason for the numerous dietary restrictions was to keep Jews from socializing too much with the gentiles.

Nice you're going through all this concern to keep your guests comfortable!

Pam R · June 2, 2005

--i have to decide if it's a dairy or meat meal, because it can't be both. so if i make courgette-potato latkes w/ sour cream, there can be no meat in the meal?

correct

--but i could maybe serve like a wine-poached salmon (oh wait: is wine kosher?)...

kosher wine is kosher. There are many jokes about Menishewitz wine (it is rated about an 8 on the sweetness scale - dry wine is 0 - a non-dry non-sweet zin. is about a 1). But there are plenty of really nice kosher wines out there. Check with your local wine merchant and I'm sure they will have a selection - or check out kosherwine.com

umm, got any tips on dinner party planning for kosher-keepers?

That's a pretty wide-open question!! :smile:

When are you planning on having them? Friday night may cause issues... so might Sat. nights (sunset here is about 9 pm, so it's still the Sabbath). If they are 'kosher' but not 'orthodox', the Sabbath may not be an issue - you'll have to check with them.

Once you've set your day, choose milk vs. meat. Whichever you choose, it's best to make sure that every course follows suit. It is easier to go dairy than meat. Remember that if you do meat, there is no butter, no dairy margarine, no milk for your coffee, etc. If you go dairy, you don't have to worry about these issues.

You need to check with your friends to see if they will eat bread from anywhere or only from kosher bakeries. Are any dairy products ok or only certified kosher ones.

I think the most important point is that everybody has different levels of observance. OF course, you've said that you have an idea of their level of observance - so you're off to a good start.

edited to try to fix my quotes and say you're all much quicker than me!

Edited June 2, 2005 by Pam R (log)

Pam R · June 2, 2005

I hired someone who kept stricly kosher, even during 24 hour shifts away from home.......it was his theory that part of the historical reason for the numerous dietary restrictions was to keep Jews from socializing too much with the gentiles.
Nice you're going through all this concern to keep your guests comfortable!
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Not just his theory. I was taught that one in school :smile:

Gifted Gourmet · June 2, 2005

someone who kept stricly kosher, even during 24 hour shifts away from home.......it was his theory that part of the historical reason for the numerous dietary restrictions was to keep Jews from socializing too much with the gentiles.
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That is mostly about the question of using kosher wines actually ...article from the Forward .. mention of Daniel Rogov on mevushal wines ..

But here is what I read and it does ring true from my personal experience keeping kosher some 35+ years:

"The laws reminded Israel what sort of behaviour was expected of her, that she had been chosen to be holy in an unclean world."
Similarly, the practice of Kashrut serves as a daily exercise in self-discipline and self-control, strengthening the practitioner's ability to choose other difficult paths. The ability to rationally curb one's most basic appetites can be seen as the prerequisite to living in a civilized society. Also, the aspects of Kosher slaughter which emphasize and incorporate the need to avoid unnecessary suffering of the animal remind the believer that having the power of life and death or to cause suffering,

the best page I have found on this issue actually

cakewalk · June 3, 2005

For example: asparagus. Oy. Don't get me started. But since you already have: asparagus is a vegetable. It is, ipso facto, kosher. Full stop. However, bugs (of any sort), are not kosher. So, there are some Jews who go through the following thought process: asparagus, because of how it grows and what it is, is very difficult, if not impossible, to clean of bugs. Bugs can get stuck in the tips, under the leaves, etc. I can never know if I have removed all the bugs. Therefore, I have decided I will not eat asparagus, because I might be eating bugs with it, and bugs are not kosher.
That thought process has its own logic, but the important thing to remember is this: it does not mean that asparagus is not kosher. It means that some people, some groups, have decided not to eat it. This is really a crucial thought to remember when trying to figure out what is and isn't okay to serve to people. You really have to ask them. (I gobble asparagus like there's no tomorrow.)
←
Actually, the standard operating procedure for asaparagus is just not to use the tips as the density of the buds makes it difficult to check them fully. It's easy to check the rest of the spear.
←
But the same issue remains: standard operating procedure for whom? I know plenty of people who, unlike me, as for a rabbinical p'sak before doing things. And they eat asparagus. So I think that standard operating procedures are only standard within communities. They are not norms of Judaism altogether.
←
Talk to mainstream orthodox mashgichim and they'll tell you just not to use the asparagus tips -- it's just too difficult to check them thoroughly. If you go into a restaurant or buy take-out from a place certified by one of the major kashruth agencies you'll never see the tips included in dishes that contain asparagus.
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But we are not talking only about "mainstream orthodox mashgichim" here. There are other possibilities, and they are valid whether or not they are "mainstream."

cakewalk · June 3, 2005

OK, so say i'm planning a dinner party, and i've gauged the degree of 'observancy' of my kosher-keeping friends. what are some of my first decisions, re: menu planning?
--i have to decide if it's a dairy or meat meal, because it can't be both. so if i make courgette-potato latkes w/ sour cream, there can be no meat in the meal?
--but i could maybe serve like a wine-poached salmon (oh wait: is wine kosher?)...
umm, got any tips on dinner party planning for kosher-keepers?
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Yup, it's either meat or milk, not both. Going with the milk meal is safer and gives you more options IMO, but there are still some issues you should keep in mind. Do your guests eat any cheeses, or only kosher cheeses? (There's the rennet issue for the hard cheeses. Many people who are not religious but keep some level of kashrut will eat all cheeses, but there are those who don't, so you might want to check that one.) Also, if you make a custard type of dessert you'll want to watch out for the gelatin.

I think fish is a great option (and you don't have to make it in wine sauce, although, as has been pointed out already, there are plenty of good kosher wines these days.) But again, it will depend on the level of your friends' kashrut observance. Do they eat fish bought anywhere, or just from fish places that sell kosher fish only? Yesh v'yesh. (There are those who do this, and there are those who do that.)

bloviatrix · June 3, 2005

But we are not talking only about "mainstream orthodox mashgichim" here. There are other possibilities, and they are valid whether or not they are "mainstream."
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I just think for the sake of this thread it's best to stick with basic halacha. It's not that I don't think other oprons are valid, it's just becomes an issue of "too much information" and not necessary for someone who just wants to learn the basics.

zilla369 · June 3, 2005

WOW, Pam....great thread! I've been mighty busy at work, or I would have chimed in sooner!

I'll have to relate the incident that shared with Pam via PM, that sparked her idea for this thread.

Soon, I promise. I'm coming off a 12 hour day and staring 15 hours in the face tomorrow :blink:

Gifted Gourmet · June 3, 2005

I absolutely agree with bloviatrix on (as my boss used to tell me) KISS .. namely keep it simple, stupid ...

The levels of kashruth can become exceedingly complex and it behooves us to make it interesting (it is!) and easily comprehensible.

The basic premise makes perfect sense, to me anyway, but it takes a very long time to see how it all "works" in one's kitchen .. what goes with what ... as you can tell by now, separating milk and meat is only the most basic building block of the process of keeping kosher ...

Pan · June 3, 2005

[...]I also want to add that while eggs are kosher (and pareve), any egg that has a blood spot in it is not considered to be kosher.[..]
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What are the explanations for this ruling? I'd think an egg with a spot of blood in it would be fleishig (meat), rather than pareve. Is it treyf in order to avoid confusion of pareve and fleishigs?

Gifted Gourmet · June 3, 2005

But if it is meat, then it has to be ritually slaughtered, I understood ...

by way of an explanation

Pam R · June 3, 2005

[...]I also want to add that while eggs are kosher (and pareve), any egg that has a blood spot in it is not considered to be kosher.[..]
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What are the explanations for this ruling? I'd think an egg with a spot of blood in it would be fleishig (meat), rather than pareve. Is it treyf in order to avoid confusion of pareve and fleishigs?
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Again, one question, many answers. One theory is that a blood spot is indicative or a forming embryo (not really an issue these days as hens and roosters aren't often kept together). Another reason is that we aren't supposed to eat blood - hence the salting/soaking of meat to draw out the blood. I'm sure there are more theories :wink:

Melissa - I looked at your link - I like the fact that they say that blood spots are very rare these days, so it's not really an issue. During Passover I must have thrown out at least 3 dozen eggs! Where have my eggs been hanging out??

cakewalk · June 3, 2005

[...]I also want to add that while eggs are kosher (and pareve), any egg that has a blood spot in it is not considered to be kosher.[..]
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What are the explanations for this ruling? I'd think an egg with a spot of blood in it would be fleishig (meat), rather than pareve. Is it treyf in order to avoid confusion of pareve and fleishigs?
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No, it's treyf because we don't eat blood!

Although it must also have something to do with what Pam said re: it is an embryo forming. I remember learning that in Israel, all the eggs sold are unfertilized eggs. Therefore, it is permitted to remove the blood spot from the egg and still use the egg. (Provided the blood spot is removed entirely.) But in other countries, where it is uncertain whether or not the eggs are fertilized, the egg must be thrown away if there is a blood spot in it. So the embryo stuff must be a part of the reasoning.

sparrowgrass · June 3, 2005

I don't know nuthin' bout kosher, but I do know my eggs. A blood spot has nothing to do with embryos--a fertilized egg has a tiny white "donut" shaped spot on it for the first 2 or 3 days of incubation, then it develops a network of blood veins, very different and distinct from the little blood spots found in supermardket eggs. Think "bloodshot eyeball" and you will have a good picture of a yolk with a 3 or 4 day old embryo in it.

If your eggs are "USDA grade A", they should have no (or very few--sometimes one slips by) bloodspots, because USDA grade A eggs are candled to remove bloodspots. Check for the USDA shield--grade A can be printed on any package, but the USDA shield is only on inspected eggs.

jackal10 · June 3, 2005

I absolutely agree with bloviatrix on (as my boss used to tell me) KISS .. namely keep it simple, stupid ...
The levels of kashruth can become exceedingly complex and it behooves us to make it interesting (it is!) and easily comprehensible.
The basic premise makes perfect sense, to me anyway, but it takes a very long time to see how it all "works" in one's kitchen .. what goes with what ... as you can tell by now, separating milk and meat is only the most basic building block of the process of keeping kosher ...
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Not sure the basic premise is simple at all.

One suggestion is that they were rough and ready rules designed to

a) Keep people away from bad foods in the environement of hunter-gatherers in a middle eastern desert; and

b) Enforce a degree of seperation for the Jewish People

Since then they have been layers of rabbinic interpretation, each more severe and aesetic than before, perhaps just so the particular Rebbe can show their orthodoxy. Not eating asparagus tips, (one I've never heard of before) or bottom feeding fish like dover sole is a very long way from the original biblical injunction.

Pam R · June 3, 2005

I don't know nuthin' bout kosher, but I do know my eggs. A blood spot has nothing to do with embryos--a fertilized egg has a tiny white "donut" shaped spot on it for the first 2 or 3 days of incubation, then it develops a network of blood veins, very different and distinct from the little blood spots found in supermardket eggs. Think "bloodshot eyeball" and you will have a good picture of a yolk with a 3 or 4 day old embryo in it.

I'm not disagreeing with you - but I am telling you that this is some of the reasoning against eating an egg with a blood spot.

If your eggs are "USDA grade A", they should have no (or very few--sometimes one slips by) bloodspots, because USDA grade A eggs are candled to remove bloodspots. Check for the USDA shield--grade A can be printed on any package, but the USDA shield is only on inspected eggs.
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but we don't all live in the US :smile: . The Canadian system must suck, cuz I'm telling you in a matter of 3 weeks I had to throw out at least 36 eggs.

touaregsand · June 3, 2005

But if it is meat, then it has to be ritually slaughtered, I understood ...
by way of an explanation
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Is there a way to ritually slaughter an egg? :laugh:

I do have a question regarding eggs. Muslims rinse them quickly with water. Is there something in Kashrut about this?

Behemoth · June 3, 2005

I do have a question regarding eggs. Muslims rinse them quickly with water. Is there something in Kashrut about this?

I've never heard of a "religious" reason for this. Do you have a reference? Most places I've bought eggs in the ME also happen to sell chickens so there's a lot of stuff flying around. It might just be good common sense.

touaregsand · June 3, 2005

I do have a question regarding eggs. Muslims rinse them quickly with water. Is there something in Kashrut about this?
I've never heard of a "religious" reason for this. Do you have a reference? Most places I've bought eggs in the ME also happen to sell chickens so there's a lot of stuff flying around. It might just be good common sense.
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I've never heard of a religous reason for it either. My reference is my husband, not a very good source for knowledge about halal. :rolleyes:

cakewalk · June 3, 2005

I don't know nuthin' bout kosher, but I do know my eggs. A blood spot has nothing to do with embryos--a fertilized egg has a tiny white "donut" shaped spot on it for the first 2 or 3 days of incubation, then it develops a network of blood veins, very different and distinct from the little blood spots found in supermardket eggs. Think "bloodshot eyeball" and you will have a good picture of a yolk with a 3 or 4 day old embryo in it.
If your eggs are "USDA grade A", they should have no (or very few--sometimes one slips by) bloodspots, because USDA grade A eggs are candled to remove bloodspots. Check for the USDA shield--grade A can be printed on any package, but the USDA shield is only on inspected eggs.
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That is interesting. But then what are the bloodspots? Are they just lesions of some sort?

It's interesting to hear that the eggs are candled. I always thought this was a defunct Jewish occupation. In Yiddish, the person who does this is called a "kindler," and it was actually done with a candle in bygone days. Eggs with bloodspots were destroyed. I always thought of this as a particularly Jewish thing, and that the "profession" ended with modernization.

Milagai · June 3, 2005

It's interesting to hear that the eggs are candled. I always thought this was a defunct Jewish occupation. In Yiddish, the person who does this is called a "kindler," and it was actually done with a candle in bygone days. Eggs with bloodspots were destroyed. I always thought of this as a particularly Jewish thing, and that the "profession" ended with modernization.
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my dd's 2nd grade class was taken to the local grocery store for

a field trip last week, and lo and behold! there is a lady whose job

it is to hold every single egg coming into the store (and there

are HUGE truckloads of them coming in) to the light and destroy

those with blood spots visible.

this is a general large chain grocery store, not catering to any

one ethnic market in particular....

milagai

jackal10 · June 3, 2005

Eggs found inside a chicken at slaughter aare fleishig (meat)

Pam R · June 3, 2005

Eggs found inside a chicken at slaughter aare fleishig (meat)
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And according to other members of my family, the ayalach (sp?) are best served in a bowl of hot chicken soup (though, you can't buy them here anymore)

I've never heard of a law saying that you have to wash eggs... anybody else?

Edited June 3, 2005 by Pam R (log)

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