Corn syrup/glucose/trimoline/invert sugars

[schneich]

when it comes to ganache one syrup cant be substituted just like that. believe me i had to learn it the hard way. i had lots of chocolates turn moldy on me :-( i threw kilos of chocolate away because my ganache recipes were unbalanced. in chef moratos book is a very nice chapter on how to balance a ganache recipe correctly in order NOT to go moldy on you in less than 14 days. basically he says that you must have certain percentages of cocoa butter, milk fat, sugar and water. as soon as iam back from europain i will post an example.

besides that trimolene and sorbitol syrup(karion f from merck) have the most waterbinding ability, which is what you are looking for. the more water you bind, the less free water you have in your product, which means your chocolates will be good for much longer.

cheers

t.

[John DePaula]

when it comes to ganache one syrup cant be substituted just like that. believe me i had to learn it the hard way. i had lots of chocolates turn moldy on me :-( i threw kilos of chocolate away because my ganache recipes were unbalanced. in chef moratos book is a very nice chapter on how to balance a ganache recipe correctly in order NOT to go moldy on you in less than 14 days. basically he says that you must have certain percentages of cocoa butter, milk fat, sugar and water. as soon as iam back from europain i will post an example.

besides that trimolene and sorbitol syrup(karion f from merck) have the most waterbinding ability, which is what you are looking for. the more water you bind, the less free water you have in your product, which means your chocolates will be good for much longer.

cheers

t.

←

I'm interested in seeing your next post about this regarding ganaches. I know that any little change in the amount of water (or altering the relative percentages of fats & sugars) in a ganache will alter the Aw. But Tammy was asking specifically about caramels. Like Kerry said, for any given target temperature, the amount of water will be the same. Using Karo corn syrup will likely take longer than using glucose to reach your target temperature, but in the end you'll have the same amount of water.

[Jay Francis]

I would think that any large Chinese/Korean grocery store would have corn syrup.

Edited March 29, 2008 by Jay Francis (log)

[SWEETNESS]

I have a recipe from the US that wants corn syrup....it comprises 21% of the total formula weight. However, I live in Australia where corn syrup is expensive to come by. I'd like to replace the corn syrup w/ readily-available and inexpensive glucose. Can I do a straight substitution gram for gram or do I need to calculate? If the latter, what is the formula? I dispair of testing a whole production of marshmallows and failing. thx.

Edited April 17, 2008 by SWEETNESS (log)

[tammylc]

I have a recipe from the US that wants corn syrup....it comprises 21% of the total formula weight.  However, I live in Australia where corn syrup is expensive to come by.  I'd like to replace the corn syrup w/ readily-available and inexpensive glucose.  Can I do a straight substitution gram for gram or do I need to calculate?  If the latter, what is the formula?  I dispair of testing a whole production  of marshmallows and failing.  thx.

←

i asked this very question upthread, and the general consensus was that a gram for gram substitution was fine. You could probably use a little less, really, because light corn syrup contains water, which would just boil off in the process of getting your sugar syrup to temperature.

[Ceviz]

I'm using glucose syrup (corn syrup) in my cream ganache recipes now, but thinking to move to handmade invert sugar (one measure sugar, one measure water, a little bit lemon juice, boil 20 mins).

I would like to take your advises about the substitution ratio I should use in my recipes. Thanks.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Ceviz (log)

[gap]

Invert sugar and glucose are different things - I'm not so sure about substituting them. In particular, the sweetness of each is very different. From memory, glucose syrup has a sweetness of about 70 and invert sugar has a sweetness of about 120 (normal sucrose is 100)

[Ceviz]

Eddy Van Damme has a more exact homemade invert sugar recipe.

[Darienne]

Speaking of Eddy van Damme, I just found his website this morning thanks to a post in another thread on Fresh Butter Cream in Chocolates which then led me to his recipe for Invert Sugar which then led me to ask him a question (still in moderation) about substituting invert sugar for corn syrup in making hard tac lollipops.

But then, I would also like to know about using invert sugar in other foods:

If I now use a couple of tablespoons of corn syrup in place of a couple of tablespoons of sugar when making ice cream (thanks to Paulraphael, my ice cream mentor), could I substitute invert sugar instead?

What about invert sugar in marshmallows? toffee? other confections?

[paulraphael]

Darienne, you can use invert sugars instead of corn syrup, but there will be differences. The biggest difference is the level of sweetness; invert syrup will be 50% or so sweeter, so you will use much less of it to get the same flavor. This may or may not defeat your original purpose for using the corn syrup; I gather you're using it to raise the freezing point of the ice cream, which depends on both the freezing point suppression of the sugar and its quantity (and by implication, its relative sweetness, since you don't want to be forced into making ice cream that's too sweet or not sweet enough).

I'm not sure about the freezing point suppression of invert syrup relative to corn syrup. I'm going to take a wild guess that it's similar at similar hydration levels. This being the case, invert syrup would be most helpfurl if you wanted your ice cream to be sweeter, without significantly changing the texture.

You can get much of this effect by just using table sugar, but the syrups can help prevent sugar crystalization, which can be an issue with some ice cream and sorbet flavors.

[Darienne]

I'm not sure about the freezing point suppression of invert syrup relative to corn syrup. I'm going to take a wild guess that it's similar at similar hydration levels. This being the case, invert syrup would be most helpful if you wanted your ice cream to be sweeter, without significantly changing the texture.

Thanks paulraphael. I would use the invert sugar to mirror exactly what the corn syrup does...sweetness is in no way my issue. Avoiding high fructose corn syrup is my concern.

Seeing as you have not tried it and I have not tried it, the thing is next to try it and see what happens. I am hoping to hear back from Eddy van Damme as to his opinion on the subject. In the answers I found yesterday on his invert sugar recipe comments, there might be a slight change in amount. I'll go back and reread Chef Eddy's answers. Here is Chef Eddy's invert sugar link

ps. My question to Chef Eddy yesterday is still awaiting processing as is the one from today in which I ask him directly about substituting invert sugar for corn syrup.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Darienne (log)

[paulraphael]

I use glucose syrup from a cake supply store. It's like corn syrup but pure glucose and much more concentrated (so you're putting less water into the recipe). Ideally I'd use powdered dextrose, but I can't find it locally and haven't gotten around to mail ordering it.

If your only concern is hfcs, I'd let go of that one. There isn't a shred of scientific evidence supporting any of the apocalyptic claims about this stuff. It's basically invert syrup derived from corn. Corn syrup (mostly glucose) is subjected to an enzyme reaction (like what's been used in the preparation of many food products throughout the ages) so that a portion of the glucose is converted to fructose. The "high fructose" part is really a misnomer; most hfcs formulations have no more fructose in them than table sugar.

[Darienne]

I use glucose syrup from a cake supply store. It's like corn syrup but pure glucose and much more concentrated (so you're putting less water into the recipe). Ideally I'd use powdered dextrose, but I can't find it locally and haven't gotten around to mail ordering it.

*** It seems to me that invert sugar also has less water in it than corn syrup.

If your only concern is hfcs, I'd let go of that one. There isn't a shred of scientific evidence supporting any of the apocalyptic claims about this stuff.

*** It's not a personal concern. It's partly to mollify parents who want to know the ingredients in everything. Mostly curiosity. It's basically invert syrup derived from corn. Corn syrup (mostly glucose) is subjected to an enzyme reaction (like what's been used in the preparation of many food products throughout the ages) so that a portion of the glucose is converted to fructose. The "high fructose" part is really a misnomer; most hfcs formulations have no more fructose in them than table sugar.

Way beyond my ken. But thanks so much for the information. And I am going to try using invert sugar in my next batch of ice cream. I'll report back on the ice cream topic I guess.

[paulraphael]

You might also be able to find dextrose at a health food supply store. This is pure glucose ... no other sugars, no water. I think it would be ideal substitute for corn syrup in ice cream. For increasing sweetness, I'd use powdered fructose or trimoline. I think it's better to use powdered ingredients when possible (no need for extra water in ice cream) and also pure ones (no question about what the proportions of sugars are.

I'm going to have a chance to talk to Michael Laiskonis next week. He's been my ice cream guru ... I'll ask if he uses invert sugars in ice cream, and if so what his thoughts are.

[Darienne]

You might also be able to find dextrose at a health food supply store. This is pure glucose ... no other sugars, no water. I think it would be ideal substitute for corn syrup in ice cream. For increasing sweetness, I'd use powdered fructose or trimoline. I think it's better to use powdered ingredients when possible (no need for extra water in ice cream) and also pure ones (no question about what the proportions of sugars are.

I'm going to have a chance to talk to Michael Laiskonis next week. He's been my ice cream guru ... I'll ask if he uses invert sugars in ice cream, and if so what his thoughts are.

I have glucose in a jar from a bulk food store.

The ice cream guru has his own guru.

[paulraphael]

I just found something that Michael wrote on the subject. This is about sorbets, not ice creams, but is probably somewhat relevent:

Trimoline can usually comprise 1-5% of the total mix, while glucose (which we will use in powder form) is often used in a range between 5-10%.

Trimoline is just invert sugar in powdered form. He also seems to prefer sugars in powdered form rather than syrups. Unfortunately I don't have anything from him where he discusses the reasons for using both glucose and trimoline.

[Darienne]

I just found something that Michael wrote on the subject. This is about sorbets, not ice creams, but is probably somewhat relevent:

Trimoline can usually comprise 1-5% of the total mix, while glucose (which we will use in powder form) is often used in a range between 5-10%.

Trimoline is just invert sugar in powdered form. He also seems to prefer sugars in powdered form rather than syrups. Unfortunately I don't have anything from him where he discusses the reasons for using both glucose and trimoline.

Thanks. It is all grist to the mill and good.

[gap]

I just found something that Michael wrote on the subject. This is about sorbets, not ice creams, but is probably somewhat relevent:

Trimoline can usually comprise 1-5% of the total mix, while glucose (which we will use in powder form) is often used in a range between 5-10%.

Trimoline is just invert sugar in powdered form. He also seems to prefer sugars in powdered form rather than syrups. Unfortunately I don't have anything from him where he discusses the reasons for using both glucose and trimoline.

I thought trimoline was liquid form invert sugar??

[Darienne]

For Chef Eddy van Damme's answer to the substituting invert sugar for corn syrup issue, here it is.

[Tri2Cook]

I thought trimoline was liquid form invert sugar??

It is.

[Spring]

Does anyone know of a sugar free substitute for invert sugar and/or glucose syrup for truffles/ganache etc, preferably without maltitol?

[Lior]

maybe sorbitol?

[Spring]

Hi Lior, hope all ok with you

Its not the type of artificial sweetener that is the issue/problem but how I would use it to make invert sugar and glucose syrup substitutes that could mimic the properties of those made with sucrose. Ive found a recipe for making invert sugar which I will try but wondered if anyone knew from a chemistry point of view if it wouold have the same attributes.

[Lior]

sorbitol is used for the same reasons as is glucose or trimoline.

[Darienne]

Hi Lior, hope all ok with you

Its not the type of artificial sweetener that is the issue/problem but how I would use it to make invert sugar and glucose syrup substitutes that could mimic the properties of those made with sucrose. Ive found a recipe for making invert sugar which I will try but wondered if anyone knew from a chemistry point of view if it wouold have the same attributes.

Here is not only a good invert sugar recipe from Chef Eddy, he also answers many questions in this column, and will answer a question if you submit one.