eG Foodblog: Pam R - I dare you to PASSOVER this one

[jackal10]

I'd love the pesachtiker roll recipe.

However arn't these "hookas h'goy" (too close an imitation to levened bread) to be kosher?

[lexy]

Im wondering how much the chicken costs?

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Sort of adding on to this question, is it significantly more expensive to produce kosher food than non-kosher food? I assume the extra work of having things certified/done in a specific way drives the cost up somewhat.

[cakewalk]

Absolutely, jaw-droppingly amazing. (Insert emoticon with jaw dropping down to knees.)

How long did it take you to separate all those eggs?!

The chiffon cakes looks beautiful -- it looks like a chametz cake!!! (That's a compliment)

I would also love the recipe for those rolls, if you're willing. As for them being "too close" to real bread, well, it's a two Jews three opinions deal. There are bound to be some people who will find a reason to turn up their noses at anything. Their loss. I have never heard of any "overall" judgement that forbids them absolutely.

[ellencho]

All the talk of eggs from the last page got me wondering: I understand about not mixing dairy and meat, but along the same vein, can you not mix poultry and eggs? For example, can folks who keep kosher eat breaded chicken? Because to get the bread crumbs to stick to the chicken, most folks use egg. And then to add another question on top of that, what if you were to use buttermilk instead to get the bread crumbs to adhere. Can you not mix dairy and poultry? Or how about a turkey and cheese sandwich? Is that not kosher either?

[jackal10]

Dairy is milk or milk products, like cheese or butter.

Eggs are parve, unless they have blood spots in them or are found inside a chicken at slaughter, in which case they are meat. (chicken is meat). I don't know what the status of milk found in a cow at slaughter is, but no doubt this a question the Rabbi's have considered. I suspect it is like blood, not kosher (no black puddings).

Turkey and cheese, or chicken with buttermilk are fobidden.

[Jason Perlow]

Enjoying this blog!

A random bit of trivia regarding kosher l'pesach--my understanding is that several foods considered off-limits by Ashkenazic authorities are traditionally allowed for Passover in many Sephardic communities (kitniot such as rice and legumes).

A random bit of comparative-religion trivia: the painting "The Last Supper" is in fact meant to be Jesus and the disciples at a Seder; Da Vinci constructed that scene based directly on verses in the Gospels which describe that meal as being a Passover observance. (However, I don't think Da Vinci knew a whole lot about Pesach, because it looks like at least a few food items in the painting are puffy little bread rolls!   )

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One of the things I was not aware of until recently was that the observance of the Seder during Passover did not occur until AFTER the destruction of the second temple in 70 AD by the Romans. Jesus died in 33AD. Prior to 70AD the Passover rites and sacrifices occured in the Great Temple in Jerusalem -- it was the ONLY place Jews could worship their God. The introduction of modern Judaism and its holidays and practices -- which included Synagogues (which were replacements for the Great Temple after many Jews left Jerusalem) and Rabbis -- layman teachers that were not of the Priestly order (Cohain) -- did not really come into being until quite a bit later, such as after the first and second century AD.

If this stuff is interesting to you, I suggest you try to watch the "Kingdom of David" miniseries on PBS when it comes on next.

http://www.pbs.org/previews/Kingdon_David/

You can also get it on DVD:

http://teacher.shop.pbs.org/product/index....oductId=1406675

[bloviatrix]

Ahh.  I thought the Hebrew calendar was lunar, but I didn't know about leap years.  So now, Passover will fall earlier each year again until another leap year?  And, is spring defined by the equinox?  Do the months stay more or less at the same time of solar year because of the leap-year month?

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That's exactly it. As you can see from the dates below Passover will get earlier the next to years and in 2008 there will be another leap year.

April 13, 2006

April 3, 2007

April 20, 2008

BTW, Passover is also known Chag HaAviv which means Holiday of the Spring. This further emphasizes why timing is so important.

[bloviatrix]

I know I said before that salt doesn't need supervision but I need to  clarify further -- that only refers to plain salt: table, kosher, sea.  As soon as you start doing things to it like smoking it or adding other flavors, then you need a certification.

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Do you know what they'd check before certifying it?

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Most simplistically, in order for any plant to receive certification the mashgiach will make sure that all the base ingredients are kosher as well as any industrial supplies such as the lubricants that are used for equipment. If the plant also makes non-kosher items, they'll make sure that the kosher stuff is made either on a seperate line or the machinery is cleaned appropriately between runs. A mashgiach who works in an industrial setting will have extensive knowledge in the area of food manufacturing.

Edited April 20, 2005 by bloviatrix (log)

[KatieM]

Just a little further clarification on the Last Supper question from a Christian.

From Matthew 26; 17-19

Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?" He said, "Go into the city to such a one and say to him, 'The Teacher says, My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples'" And the disciples did as Jesus directed them, and they prepared the Passover.

It is interesting to note that Jesus and his disciples did not observe Passover in the temple, because Jesus had many issues with the temple and tended to do things his way. It was the start of a new religion, after all.

It was at this Last Supper that Jesus gave his disciples bread (unleavened) and wine, saying that they represented his body and blood. Jesus was betrayed later that evening, and his crucifixion and resurrection occurred in the days following. Christians celebrate the Last Supper in two ways: at the Maundy Thursday (or Holy Thursday) service the Thursday before Easter, and in their weekly or monthly Communion. This is why most churches serve unleaved bread and kosher wine during Communion.

On another note, I am very much enjoying this blog! You are some kind of superwoman to blog this week!

[cakewalk]

It was at this Last Supper that Jesus gave his disciples bread (unleavened) and wine, saying that they represented his body and blood.  ... This is why most churches serve unleaved bread and kosher wine during Communion. 

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Kosher wine? I never knew that. And I knew the wafers were thin and cracker-like in their consistency, but I never thought of them as representing the unleavened bread of Passover. Interesting. Very interesting, all of it, thank you.

Calendar-wise, I find this year to be confusing, what with Easter having fallen a month before Passover! I know it's due to the Jewish leap year and the extra month of Adar, but still, there was something about the actual temporal connection between the two holidays that I always liked. And this year, it's just not there.

I think Pam probably doesn't even have a minute to catch her breath!

[touaregsand]

The most interesting order we had yesterday?? Well the jail of course! It's not the first time they've ordered from us... but not for a holiday. We actually used to sell stuff to the jail often - for either those who observe kashrut or halal... but it's been a couple of years. Now we're all wondering who needs this food...

Halal too?

I suppose the salient differences for a Kosher kitchen to be aware of when preparing halal foods are that gelatin must be from halal animals or any fish, alcohol is haram, enzymes in cheeses must be from halal animals and in Islamic slaughter practices each animal is blessed.

Meat and dairy combinations, milk from camels and ritually slaughtered camel meat and shellfish are halal. There's more but I'm trying to keep within the parameters of whats been already mentioned upthread.

Am I correct in this?

[Chris Amirault]

Another awestruck person with his jaw on the floor, Pam, particularly when I saw those boxes of chicken -- "about 1/3 of the boxes." Fantastic work! May your stamina hold out through your seder!

[Pan]

I believe I'd be correct in saying that the only thing that can be kosher that's unquestionably haram (not halal for Muslims) is alcohol. Otherwise, everything that's kosher is ipso facto halal, except for Muslims who've decided that there's some doctrinal reason to avoid foods slaughtered and blessed by non-Muslims, period. (As in the Jewish community, the Muslim community is full of diversity on the details of how to observe various commandments.) Going the other way, however, many halal things are treif.

[touaregsand]

I believe I'd be correct in saying that the only thing that can be kosher that's unquestionably haram (not halal for Muslims) is alcohol. Otherwise, everything that's kosher is ipso facto halal, except for Muslims who've decided that there's some doctrinal reason to avoid foods slaughtered and blessed by non-Muslims, period. (As in the Jewish community, the Muslim community is full of diversity on the details of how to observe various commandments.) Going the other way, however, many halal things are treif.

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Don't some Jews consider gelatin from pigs as well as enzymes from pigs in cheeses to be kosher? (I know, I know two Jews, three opinions. ) I wonder if Pam is concerned about this in her kitchen.

As for the meat many Muslims consider it okay for the animal to be slaughtered by a "person of the book" a Christian or a Jew is fine. But Halal rules are pretty clear about each animal being blessed and not just the general slaughter area.

Going the other way, it wouldn't be possible to prepare Kosher in a halal kitchen.

[Pam R]

Oy! I'm going to answer what I can, then post about my morning.

Im wondering how much the chicken costs? 

I've posted before on another topic regarding the high cost of chicken in Canada. ( Mostly for boneless skinless breasts).  Thus, I rarely buy that kind of chicken here, rather I skip over to Michigan and bring back a stock.  Id love to eat Kosher chicken year round( to me, the flavor is uncomparable), but alas there is NO place in this small town and driving to London when I feel in the mood isnt feasible( especially in winter).

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OK. I asked the expert here (dad). Rather than give you an actual price list, he let me know that on average, the price of kosher chicken (at least in Winnipeg) is about 150% more than treif. It will cost less in Toronto and other large centers.

What kinds of desserts or pastries do you have on the menu for your clients?

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This year's list of baking is:

Chocolate Chip Komish (mandelbroit) (with almonds or without)

Double Chocolate 'Biscotti'

Nothings (keichal)

Almond, Chocolate Chip and Chocolate Meringues

Plum Kuchen

Brownies

Lemon Chiffon (plain)

- Filled with Lemon Curd and that YUMMY whipped topping

- Baked as a flan base and filled with lemon curd, topped with fresh fruit and glazed

- Pavlova's - filled with something, topped with fruit

- Individual pavlova's filled with chocolate cream and strawberries

- Strawberry Shortcake

Chocolate Mousse Log (I'll show you what I do with the cakes that don't work so well)

Chocolate Chip Chiffon Cake

Shmoo Torte

Cream Puffs filled with a Strawberry Cream

Pecan, Cranberry and Orange 'Biscotti'

- whatever else I can come up with in the next day and a half because we need 1400 pieces for the symphony

I'd love the pesachtiker roll recipe.

However arn't these "hookas h'goy" (too close an imitation to levened bread) to be kosher?

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Passover Rolls

Combine:

8 cups matzoh meal

1 T. salt

¼ C. sugar

Bring to a boil:

4 C. water 2 C. oil

16 eggs

-add boiling mixture into dry ingredients – blend well

-beat in 1 egg at a time

-shape and bake at 375 for 50 minutes (I use convection oven)

This batch makes about 27 LARGE Rolls... obviously you can make a smaller batch - divide it by 4

Im wondering how much the chicken costs?

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Sort of adding on to this question, is it significantly more expensive to produce kosher food than non-kosher food? I assume the extra work of having things certified/done in a specific way drives the cost up somewhat.

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Some things are much more expensive. Some things are exactly the same. If you look in your kitchen cupboards, many of the things in it are certified kosher. Flour, sugar, salt, eggs, many spices and soooo many more things are kosher. (If you're in the US even more is kosher than here.) What gets to be expensive is the meats and some dairy products.

Absolutely, jaw-droppingly amazing. (Insert emoticon with jaw dropping down to knees.)

How long did it take you to separate all those eggs?!

The chiffon cakes looks beautiful -- it looks like a chametz cake!!! (That's a compliment)

I would also love the recipe for those rolls, if you're willing. As for them being "too close" to real bread, well, it's a two Jews three opinions deal. There are bound to be some people who will find a reason to turn up their noses at anything. Their loss.  I have never heard of any "overall" judgement that forbids them absolutely.

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Thanks so much. This is only my third year doing all the baking (we used to have a baker), and while they've been good in the past, I think I've discovered the secrets. My recipe calls for 12 eggs per cake, but I get 5 cakes out of a quadruple batch.

As for things looking too close to real bread - I've often questioned these things myself. We can't use yeast and we have to bake unleavened bread.... but we can have a 6" tall, light cake?? Mine is not to argue...

All the talk of eggs from the last page got me wondering: I understand about not mixing dairy and meat, but along the same vein, can you not mix poultry and eggs? For example, can folks who keep kosher eat breaded chicken? Because to get the bread crumbs to stick to the chicken, most folks use egg.  And then to add another question on top of that, what if you were to use buttermilk instead to get the bread crumbs to adhere.  Can you not mix dairy and poultry?  Or how about a turkey and cheese sandwich? Is that not kosher either?

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I should have mentioned that eggs (and fish) are considered Pareve (not milk or meat) and poultry falls under the meat banner.

The most interesting order we had yesterday?? Well the jail of course! It's not the first time they've ordered from us... but not for a holiday. We actually used to sell stuff to the jail often - for either those who observe kashrut or halal... but it's been a couple of years. Now we're all wondering who needs this food...

Halal too?

I suppose the salient differences for a Kosher kitchen to be aware of when preparing halal foods are that gelatin must be from halal animals or any fish, alcohol is haram, enzymes in cheeses must be from halal animals and in Islamic slaughter practices each animal is blessed.

Meat and dairy combinations, milk from camels and ritually slaughtered camel meat and shellfish are halal. There's more but I'm trying to keep within the parameters of whats been already mentioned upthread.

Am I correct in this?

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Pan answered this better than I can. I was going to say that I think a lot of Muslims (at least here) will eat kosher food (without the alcohol) because the laws of kashrut are similar (if not more stict?). We also cannot use gelatin from any foods other than fish or vegetable (that's why the kosher marshmallows have fish allergy warnings on the packages). Enzymes for cheese is an issue for us, that's why we can only eat kosher cheeses.... the blessing over an animal though - that may cause an issue? I don't know if there is anywhere in the city here where the jail could get halal meals...

[Pam R]

Don't some Jews consider gelatin from pigs as well as enzymes from pigs in cheeses to be kosher? (I know, I know two Jews, three opinions.  ) I wonder if Pam is concerned about this in her kitchen.

As for the meat many Muslims consider it okay for the animal to be slaughtered by a "person of the book" a Christian or a Jew is fine. But Halal rules are pretty clear about each animal being blessed and not just the general slaughter area.

Going the other way, it wouldn't be possible to prepare  Kosher in a halal kitchen.

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Some do consider gelatin from non-kosher animals kosher. I have my doubts and I won't use any gelatin that's not fish or animal based. Although, honestly we don't use much gelatin now - but it's something I'm planning on experimenting with in the future (new business venture coming up).

And you're right... I don't believe any Jew who keeps kosher would eat halal food (unless it's certified both ways).

[Pam R]

Before I post the post I actually got online to post, I just want to say how much I'm enjoying the discussions and comparisons of other cultures. Obviously, I know much about Judaism, and I try to learn what I can about other cultures but I think it's often hard to get into discussions with people about these matters. It's hard not to bring religion into a blog like this, and as long as everybody else is enjoying it I hope we continue on for the rest of the week as we started yesterday.

Thanks.

[Pam R]

Canadian Content

While this is a Passover-themed blog, I need to point out that I'm also a proud Canadian - so this is my first Canadian installment.

I moved recently - to the wrong side of the tracks. So a block from home this morning I got stopped by a train. Along the road where my car was stopped is a Tim Horton's, & if I can just squeeze my truck between the car in front of my and the ditch, I can go through the drive-thru and get back on the road before the train is done.

I already had my own coffee so this morning I added 2 chocolate glazed timbits to my breakfast.

(see how the sun is shining off the bag? It's a beautiful spring-day in the 'Peg)

When I got to work, I took over the kitchen radio. We usually have the CBC on - but I'm so tired that I needed some music and thanks to Power97 I got a dose of Our LAdy Peace and a couple of tunes by the Hip. (go Wheat kings!)

I was in a much chipper mood after that. Now we're back to the CBC

[Smithy]

Before I post the post I actually got online to post, I just want to say how much I'm enjoying the discussions and comparisons of other cultures.  Obviously, I know much about Judaism, and I try to learn what I can about other cultures but I think it's often hard to get into discussions with people about these matters.  It's hard not to bring religion into a blog like this, and as long as everybody else is enjoying it I hope we continue on for the rest of the week as we started yesterday.

Thanks.

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I'm really enjoying it too, and glad for the education. Thanks to everyone for the answers so far, and I look forward to learning more this week.

[Jake]

Pam, what a great blog! Thanks for all the information. The kosher discussion had me laughing as I remembered my first encounter with a Jew who was supposed to keep kosher. I was about 7 or 8 and shared my ham sandwich with a young friend. I couldn't understand how it was that she'd never had a ham sandwich before. I learned a lot the next day when the child's mother screamed at me in the schoolyard and later telephoned my mother! She wasn't allowed to play with me after that. Nice parents, huh?

[Smithy]

It's funny, I rarely do more with sweets than admire them here in the States (it's nothing to do with virtue and everything to do with weight). But during my last stay in B.C. we weren't far from a Tim Horton's. Much ado was made over that place, so I had to go...and I kept going every day for breakfast.

Much ado was also made that I had never heard of the chain and didn't know who Tim Horton was. I'm sure they were wondering who let that dumb Yank into the country.

[Smithy]

Pam, what a great blog!  Thanks for all the information.  The kosher discussion had me laughing as I remembered my first encounter with a Jew who was supposed to keep kosher.  I was about 7 or 8 and shared my ham sandwich with a young friend.  I couldn't understand how it was that she'd never had a ham sandwich before.  I learned a lot the next day when the child's mother screamed at me in the schoolyard and later telephoned my mother!    She wasn't allowed to play with me after that.  Nice parents, huh?

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Now, that raises a new question. What happens if you're an observing Jew and break kashrut, even by accident? Is there some kind of penance you can do to erase the sin, or is that black mark with you forever? Or is it neither, just a slip you have to promise never to do again?

Edited April 20, 2005 by Smithy (log)

[touaregsand]

Pam, what a great blog!  Thanks for all the information.  The kosher discussion had me laughing as I remembered my first encounter with a Jew who was supposed to keep kosher.  I was about 7 or 8 and shared my ham sandwich with a young friend.  I couldn't understand how it was that she'd never had a ham sandwich before.  I learned a lot the next day when the child's mother screamed at me in the schoolyard and later telephoned my mother!    She wasn't allowed to play with me after that.  Nice parents, huh?

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I agree it's a great blog and I'm learning alot about Kashrut.

Your story reminds me of the Korean preschool my daughter attended. The kept insisting to us that ham was not a pork product.

[SuzySushi]

This year's list of baking is:

Chocolate Chip Komish (mandelbroit) (with almonds or without)

Double Chocolate 'Biscotti'

Nothings (keichal)

Almond, Chocolate Chip and Chocolate Meringues

Plum Kuchen

Brownies

Lemon Chiffon (plain)

        -  Filled with Lemon Curd and that YUMMY whipped topping 

        - Baked as a flan base and filled with lemon curd, topped with fresh fruit and glazed

        - Pavlova's - filled with something, topped with fruit

        - Individual pavlova's filled with chocolate cream and strawberries

        - Strawberry Shortcake

Chocolate Mousse Log (I'll show you what I do with the cakes that don't work so well)

Chocolate Chip Chiffon Cake

Shmoo Torte

Cream Puffs filled with a Strawberry Cream

Pecan, Cranberry and Orange 'Biscotti'

- whatever else I can come up with in the next day and a half because we need 1400 pieces for the symphony 

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What's a Shmoo Torte?

[cakewalk]

Pam, what a great blog!  Thanks for all the information.  The kosher discussion had me laughing as I remembered my first encounter with a Jew who was supposed to keep kosher.  I was about 7 or 8 and shared my ham sandwich with a young friend.  I couldn't understand how it was that she'd never had a ham sandwich before.  I learned a lot the next day when the child's mother screamed at me in the schoolyard and later telephoned my mother!    She wasn't allowed to play with me after that.  Nice parents, huh?

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Now, that raises a new question. What happens if you're an observing Jew and break kosher, even by accident? Is there some kind of penance you can do to erase the sin, or is that black mark with you forever? Or is it neither, just a slip you have to promise never to do again?

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You are doomed to clean for Passover all year long!!

Oops. No. You just don't do it again. Judaism's concept of confession/forgiveness is very different than its Christian counterpart in many ways. While there is a daily confession (it's part of the morning prayer service), and of course there's the biggie once a year (Yom Kippur), in general two things are necessary if one transgresses, whether knowingly or not: recognition of the transgression, and an avowal (from the heart) not to do it again.

The original post above reminds me of a story about my nephew. When he was in kindergarten, it turned out that another kid in his class had the same lunchbox he had. One day their lunchboxes got confused. When he went home that day, my sister took his lunchbox to clean it and noticed that nothing had been eaten. Then she unwrapped the sandwich and saw that it was ham and cheese. Poor kid. He had no idea what it was, so he just didn't eat lunch that day. (The other kid ate my nephew's tuna fish sandwich.) My sister unraveled the whole thing and called the other kids mom just to say hello and try to prevent it from happening in the future (they put the kids' names on the lunchboxes) -- no yelling and screaming necessary, even if my nephew had eaten the sandwich! Crazy parents up there!