Beef: Choosing, Preparing, Cooking

[rotuts]

@gfweb  have you made GF short ribs ?    vs grain finished ?

 

@AlaMoi  ditto above ?

 

good tips here ,  my guess is that w a braise , independent of ' cut ' , there is going to be a big difference in results

 

using the exact same cooking method , GF  vs Grain finished .

[Smithy]

@Victual Vignettes, I think you can see from the posts above that there are many, many seasoning and flavor methods in a standard braise... and I suspect that @rotuts has the right of it: grass-fed beef will behave differently than grain-finished beef. Let us know more about what you've done in the past, and maybe post some photos of the beef you're working with now.

[gfweb]

50 minutes ago, rotuts said:

@gfweb  have you made GF short ribs ?    vs grain finished ?

 

@AlaMoi  ditto above ?

 

good tips here ,  my guess is that w a braise , independent of ' cut ' , there is going to be a big difference in results

 

using the exact same cooking method , GF  vs Grain finished .

 

 

I have done  SV short ribs.  I like the old school  braise.  SV is perfectly nice but not what I think of when I hear braised short ribs.  I like the veg and the sauce  that results from a braise.

 

Re GF vs GF...I imagine all were grain finished but I don't know

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 07:04 PM by gfweb (log)

[rotuts]

echoing what @gfweb has said

 

braise is probably more about the sauce , then the meat on its own.  

 

Id suggest always letting the braise cool , and be refrigerated overnight, where hopefully some of that flavor

 

in the sauce re-enters the meat.

 

also , ' tradition ' requires temps that have some bubbling .

 

why not try a lower temp , 170 F ?  and thus longer ?

 

traditional cooking techniques , under expert hands , have been tasty for a long long time.

 

but can be adapted , with fairly current knowledge , to yield a better result.

 

and the fat you take off then next day , will not just be beef fat  ( currently a Cure-All )

 

but flavored w other fat soluble flavors.   why not use ( some ) of that for a steamed dumpling ?

[Rickbern]

15 hours ago, gfweb said:

I use a pyrex dish and add a cup of red wine, 1 tbsp tomato paste, two tbsp soy, an onion in wedges and a carrot sliced (don't omit the carrot, it matters).

 

Th liquid should come halfway up the meat. Add water as needed.

 

Cover with foil and bake at 250 or 300 for 3 hours.

 

Although I use lots of SV, the product  is different than the braised beef and I like braised here.

I think the biggest trip up for a lot of people with oven braising is the lid. Get one of those colorful cast iron pots and put the lid on tight and your braise will overheat even in a very slow oven (ask me how I know!). Lately I’ve been following a small variation of this method, but instead of using aluminum foil I make a parchment paper cartouche on top of a small roasting pan. I have an anova oven so I’m at about 250 with 30% steam. 

Edited yesterday at 09:15 AM by Rickbern (log)

[Duvel]

1 hour ago, Rickbern said:

Get one of those colorful cast iron pots and put the lid on tight and your braise will overheat even in a very slow oven (ask me how I know!).

I’d like to know what “overheat” means  …

 

Keeping the lid on or using foil, a cartouche etc. simply controls the rate of evaporation. Of course the rate of evaporation affects thermal equilibrium in your braise, but the thermal mass of your cooking vessel  the temperature of your oven controls the heat transfer and thus the temperature above the water. As long as there is water in your braise, the temperature under the liquid level remains at 100oC. And without pressure it cannot exceed that, “tight” lid or not …

 

I usually caramelize veggies, reduce wine, etc. and keep liquids below what is recommended, but evaporation at the minimum. Temp at 110-120 oC, 3-4h …

[Rickbern]

1 hour ago, Duvel said:

I’d like to know what “overheat” means  …

 

Keeping the lid on or using foil, a cartouche etc. simply controls the rate of evaporation. Of course the rate of evaporation affects thermal equilibrium in your braise, but the thermal mass of your cooking vessel  the temperature of your oven controls the heat transfer and thus the temperature above the water. As long as there is water in your braise, the temperature under the liquid level remains at 100oC. And without pressure it cannot exceed that, “tight” lid or not …

 

I usually caramelize veggies, reduce wine, etc. and keep liquids below what is recommended, but evaporation at the minimum. Temp at 110-120 oC, 3-4h …

just found this from a search, but this is what I mean by overheating, particularly the kenji reference. Heats builds in a covered pot. Follow the kenji link, he goes into (surprise!) considerable detail near the end of the article.

 

Harold McGee, in his "Guidelines for Succulent Braises and Stews," advises braising with "the pot lid ajar to allow some evaporation" (On Food and Cooking, p. 163). J. Kenji López-Alt, in his Food Lab article on Great Chile Verde Without Hatch Chiles, notes that a pot with its lid left slightly ajar "stays a good 20°F lower, keeping the meat inside at a temperature far closer to the ideal."
 

Edit- here’s another from Thomas Keller. There’s a link in the bottom to his short rib recipe 

 

https://www.masterclass.com/articles/cooking-101-learn-how-to-cook-with-a-cartouche

Edited yesterday at 12:25 PM by Rickbern (log)

[Duvel]

31 minutes ago, Rickbern said:

just found this from a search, but this is what I mean by overheating, particularly the kenji reference. Heats builds in a covered pot.

It does not. Beside the marginal effect of evaporation, the pot and its content is in equilibrium with the oven environment. No build up. It will not magically heat up above the boiling point of water. The volume above the liquid may have a different temperature, as the saturation of steam will depend on how much you let escape. But that’s not your point. The chart given by Kenji is worthless without the external temperature. 
 

It’s all about the rate of evaporation. 

[gfweb]

Then there's the whole issue of "flavors building overnight".

 

The only test of this that I know of is tasting in the morning and noting improvement.

 

But I've routinely sampled dinner leftovers 30 min after dinner when I'm cleaning up.  Flavors are better t hen too.

 

I suspect that our tastes get dulled during a meal and everything tastes better after our taste buds "reset" in a short while.

 

So I propose that sitting overnight is pointless as far as taste development.

 

 

[rotuts]

Its very difficult to accurately , in a scientific sense , if not impossible , to measure  flavor.

 

its subjective .  its also temperature dependent .

 

and overnight ' rest ' is simply a ... simple unit of time. 

 

Vivian Howard made an interesting point in her second show.  She was making a casserole .

 

One of the major units in the casserole was ground beef w alf dozen ground apices  mixed in.

 

she noted that after throughly mixing the burger , then cooking , you could taste the individual spice components.

 

after letting the mixture rest overnight ( refrigerated of course )  then cooking , you tasted 

 

' one ' flavor .   its an interesting point .

 

She's as pretty insightful and honest chef.  Id say she tried both , and came to that conclusion .

 

on the other hand , if you are braising for 3 hours , at a temp well above room temp , your flavors are probably

 

evenly distributed .  equilibrium is reached faster at higher temps.  

 

my feeling is that resting results in , at least , water soluble flavors , possibly also fat soluble ones

 

moving back into meat , as the fibers relax at cooler temps .  they probably also move back into

 

say a cooked carrot , as the cellulose has degraded . but probably in vegetable terms , not that far.

Edited yesterday at 01:41 PM by rotuts (log)

[Rickbern]

1 hour ago, Duvel said:

It does not. Beside the marginal effect of evaporation, the pot and its content is in equilibrium with the oven environment. No build up. It will not magically heat up above the boiling point of water. The volume above the liquid may have a different temperature, as the saturation of steam will depend on how much you let escape. But that’s not your point. The chart given by Kenji is worthless without the external temperature. 
 

It’s all about the rate of evaporation. 

I dont think a braise at the boiling point of water would be very succesful. Thats much too hot. Thats the 20 f difference he’s talking about 

Edited yesterday at 01:58 PM by Rickbern (log)

[Duvel]

3 hours ago, Rickbern said:

I dont think a braise at the boiling point of water would be very succesful. Thats much too hot. Thats the 20 f difference he’s talking about 

Yeah … 

 

How do you explain the surprisingly successful pressure cooker stews ?!

[rotuts]

I personally think for a P.C. stew to be edible , the meat itself has to be reasonably fatty , if not more so .

 

for very lean meat , top // bottom round , or grass fed , there better be many tasty add-ins for that sort of

 

meat to make a tasty PC. stew .

 

or , you might have to be famished , which would work .

 

 

[Duvel]

I agree. Plenty of fat, plenty of connective tissue - same success factors as for a good braise. Temperature renders connective tissue into gelatin, and tightens muscle fibers. The equilibrium between both determines your final product. Tenderness can be achieved at any temperature depending on time - and the question of covering the braise ultimately affects the liquid part more than the solids …

 

 

[Tropicalsenior]

36 minutes ago, Duvel said:

Yeah … 

 

How do you explain the surprisingly successful pressure cooker stews ?!

I do it all the time.

 

32 minutes ago, rotuts said:

personally think for a P.C. stew to be edible , the meat itself has to be reasonably fatty , if not more so .

There's no such thing as marbled fatty beef in Costa Rica. In order to make it edible I have to use the pressure cooker or braze it for more hours than I care to do. The trick to making it tasty and tender is to Brown it thoroughly and not overcook it. Even if it is nicely marbled, meat that is overcooked in the pressure cooker is going to be stringy and tough.

[Rickbern]

@Duvel I think there’s a lot of approaches to braising. If cooking at a hard boil works for you , more power to you. In my experience, I like to keep the temperature lower, I find the parchment paper helps me out. May not work for you.

 

As far as the pressure cooker goes, there’s danger in quick releasing the pressure, every pc braise recipe I’ve ever looked at encourages natural release, perhaps it’s the same problem kenji was pointing out. I’m not that knowledgeable on the subject. 
 

I’ve made brisket in a pressure cooker, it turned out pretty good, I don’t tend to do it so much anymore because I like the lower temperature approach and I’ve gotten away from using brisket all that often. Nowadays my pressure cooker is only used for making stock, just personal preference. 

[rotuts]

@Rickbern

 

the danger w quick release of P.C.s is 

 

1 ) getting burned w steam

 

2 ) creating a rapid boil of the contents of the pot , a sort of foaming action .

 

the temperatures in a PC ( high or low pressures )  are well above the temperature issues mentioned in the Kenji article.

 

quick release does not increase the temperature of the pot.

Edited yesterday at 07:10 PM by rotuts (log)

[Tropicalsenior]

5 minutes ago, rotuts said:

creating a rapid boil of the contents of the pot , a sort of foaming action

I don't know the science behind it but I've always heard that using quick release with meat can toughen it. I can't prove it because I never use Quick Release with meat.

[rotuts]

@Tropicalsenior

 

I think that is incorrect .

 

fast release,  releases a lot of steam , which concentrates the liquid portion of the PC contents by  evaporation .

 

I use this feature all the time when making stock .  if i start w 3 cups of water , use quick release , there is less water left in the pot.

 

in terms of toughening meat  , I cant think of a mechanism for toughening the meat .  there still might be one, but

 

I doubt it.   quick release might dry the meat , if the meat is not totally submerged in the liquid :  the exposed meat will

 

' boil ' making that portion dry 

 

here is a ref.  

 

https://www.hippressurecooking.com/meat-openings-pcs/

 

you have to read it carefully .  

 

dryness is not the same as toughness .

Edited yesterday at 07:33 PM by rotuts (log)

[Tropicalsenior]

4 minutes ago, rotuts said:

quick release might dry the meat , if the meat is not totally submerged in the liquid : 

As I said I know nothing about the science behind it so you could be right. I have mainly heard it in reference to making pot roast and other types of meat that would not be covered by a liquid. I've never tried making them in an IP. I've only used it for stews and soups.

[rotuts]

another way of looking at rapid release of meat might be this :

 

say you pressure cook meat , and the meat is partially submerged in liquid , or not at all : pressure steamed.

 

the PC temp is well above 221 F , sea level boiling.

 

rapid release creates a rapid boil in the pot , and on the surface of the meat .  that surface , above the liquid will be dry.

 

the problem is the dry meat will seem tougher than wet meat , but I see no way that can be true 

 

dry and wet have different mouth feel .

 

on the other hand , dry meat has mouth feel similar to toughness , but was tender when moist.

 

extreme example :  jerky 

 

so rapid release will dry meat that's above the ' water line '

 

but the meat under the water line will stay moist and feel in the mouth  tender .

 

one last thought :  the dry parts of meat , above the waterline @ quick release , may ' chew ' tought

 

as is , but left in the liquid will re hydrate w time .  

 

a tough piece of meat will remain tough in any liquid .

Edited yesterday at 08:29 PM by rotuts (log)

[AlaMoi]

quick pressure release . . . 

 

at lower pressure, water boils at a lower temperature.

this is the whole point of a pressure cooker - increase the pressure, boiling point also increases, makes things 'cook faster' at a higher temperature.

 

it's not impossible that quickly releasing the pressure could result in (some) moisture inside the meat 'boiling off' rapidly, leaving the meat dry / drier / tougher.

[rotuts]

OK  , but that drier will rehydrate w time , getting back to a mouth-feel of tender 

 

tough will not get tender by soaking in a liquid .

[gulfporter]

3 hours ago, Tropicalsenior said:

I do it all the time.

 

There's no such thing as marbled fatty beef in Costa Rica. In order to make it edible I have to use the pressure cooker or braze it for more hours than I care to do. The trick to making it tasty and tender is to Brown it thoroughly and not overcook it. Even if it is nicely marbled, meat that is overcooked in the pressure cooker is going to be stringy and tough.

 

Same is true in Mexico as far as larger cuts of beef being marbled.  However, there are fatty beef pieces.  I buy and IP oxtails in Mexico (colas de res) and they are heavenly!  

[rotuts]

 

@Tropicalsenior

 

there is no marbled beef in Costa Rica , because :   the beef is not grain finished ,and is pasture finished on pasture that is marginal ?

 

@gulfporter  similar situation ?