Reviewing NYC Pizza

[slkinsey]

In my experience at Patsy's (East Harlem) the crust at the tip of the pizza slices has not once stood up to the cheese and sauce and stayed crisp. And I have never ordered toppings there. Every time, I get slices that droop. But once I eat past the tip, the crust is excellent and crisp.

Huh. I've never been disappointed with the crust there. I think it's a bit of a mistake to expect that the crust will be crisp at the tip of a slice, however. That's not what makes the crust great. If you have a crust that is "crisp" all the way through and "stands up to the toppings" all the way to the tip without being folded, I think you are sacrificing the etherial flexible moist middle layer that is what makes a great pizza crust truly great.

Though I enjoy the place, I've come to realize that what tops the crust at Grimaldi's is bland.

Really?! I think the toppings are Grimaldi's real strength. That sausage is imo hands down the best pizza sausage in the City, and the roasted peppers are also right up there. Now, the sauce may not be as "zippy" as some people prefer (I think it's nothing more than crushed tomatoes, salt and maybe a little evoo), but I like that simplicity.

[emmapeel]

I would agree that Sal and Carmine's is NOT the best pizza in the city, and I'm sorry if my earlier post implied that, but is the best of the common pizzarias IMO. As I said earlier, it is an aquired taste, and at first, is not really interesting, however, after getting to know the pizza, the crust is chewy but not like a dough ball, and you can eat the edges without wanting to throw them in the garbage. And the sauce is simple. I prefer anything out of a brick or coal oven. My earlier advocation of Sal and Carmine's is based on Cru's initial list. If I were to pick my very favorite, it would have to be Patsy's.

[Daniel]

I would agree that Sal and Carmine's is NOT the best pizza in the city, and I'm sorry if my earlier post implied that, but is the best of the common pizzarias IMO.  As I said earlier, it is an aquired taste, and at first, is not really interesting, however, after getting to know the pizza, the crust is chewy but not like a dough ball, and you can eat the edges without wanting to throw them in the garbage.  And the sauce is simple.  I prefer anything out of a brick or coal oven.  My earlier advocation of Sal and Carmine's is based on Cru's initial list.  If I were to pick my very favorite, it would have to be Patsy's.

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Well i have my heart set on this place now.. So i definately am going to walk the 15 blocks it takes to get a slice.. Anyone know of a good restaurant in the area i can eat at after I grab my slice at S+C'S.

[slkinsey]

I would agree that Sal and Carmine's is NOT the best pizza in the city, and I'm sorry if my earlier post implied that, but is the best of the common pizzarias IMO.

Oh, I agree. It is highly rated for a common pizzeria.

Well i have my heart set on this place now.. So i definately am going to walk the 15 blocks it takes to get a slice.. Anyone know of a good restaurant in the area i can eat at after I grab my slice at S+C'S.

There are a few good Mexican places in the neighborhood on Amsterdam. At around 101st Street is Noche Mexicana and at around 108th is Taqueria y Fonda la Mexicana.

[emmapeel]

Well i have my heart set on this place now.. So i definately am going to walk the 15 blocks it takes to get a slice.. Anyone know of a good restaurant in the area i can eat at after I grab my slice at S+C'S.

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Yes, the two Mexican places are quite good, and if you want to spend more you can go to Mama Mexico, but it's too expensive when the other two, especially Noche, is just around the corner.

There aren't any spectacular restaurants, but you might try 107 West or Metisse if Mexican doesn't suit you today.

[jogoode]

In my experience at Patsy's (East Harlem) the crust at the tip of the pizza slices has not once stood up to the cheese and sauce and stayed crisp. And I have never ordered toppings there. Every time, I get slices that droop. But once I eat past the tip, the crust is excellent and crisp.

Huh. I've never been disappointed with the crust there. I think it's a bit of a mistake to expect that the crust will be crisp at the tip of a slice, however. That's not what makes the crust great. If you have a crust that is "crisp" all the way through and "stands up to the toppings" all the way to the tip without being folded, I think you are sacrificing the etherial flexible moist middle layer that is what makes a great pizza crust truly great.

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The crust was soggy at the tip. And when I suggest that I look for a crisp crust, I don't mean that I expect tomato sauce and cheese on a water cracker. Without going into great detail about crust strata, I think that the outermost part of the crust should have a wafer-like crispness. Patsy's has never served me a pie with a crust that's entirely crisp in that way. To say that the entire crust is ideal, I'd have to cut out of the pie a circle in the center of the pizza with a diameter of about five inches. If you're still not happy, Kinsey, put your money where you mouth is an buy me a pie.

Though I enjoy the place, I've come to realize that what tops the crust at Grimaldi's is bland.

Really?! I think the toppings are Grimaldi's real strength. That sausage is imo hands down the best pizza sausage in the City, and the roasted peppers are also right up there. Now, the sauce may not be as "zippy" as some people prefer (I think it's nothing more than crushed tomatoes, salt and maybe a little evoo), but I like that simplicity.

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Sorry, I was only talking about the plain pie. I'd rather eat Grimaldi's pizza without the tomato and cheese and with olive oil and salt. The combination of sauce, cheese, and olive oil at Una Pizza is so tremendously flavorful that it has become my standard by which I judge other pies.

[tcavallo]

Has anybody been to Angelo's on W57th Street? My brother just moved to the city and got a server job there almost the same day. I read that it is coal fired and pretty good, if expensive. I'll be headed up there soon to check it out I'm sure.

[slkinsey]

The crust was soggy at the tip. And when I suggest that I look for a crisp crust, I don't mean that I expect tomato sauce and cheese on a water cracker. Without going into great detail about crust strata, I think that the outermost part of the crust should have a wafer-like crispness. Patsy's has never served me a pie with a crust that's entirely crisp in that way. To say that the entire crust is ideal, I'd have to cut out of the pie a circle in the center of the pizza with a diameter of about five inches.

Hmm. I've never found that to be the case, but I'll have to pay attention to that specifically the next time I go. I will say that "wafer like crisppness" isn't one of my particular criteria, though.

If you're still not happy, Kinsey, put your money where you mouth is an buy me a pie.

Oh it's on, you bottomless-gulleted freak! I'll make you eat that pie, too! Er... yea!

The combination of sauce, cheese, and olive oil at Una Pizza is so tremendously flavorful that it has become my standard by which I judge other pies.

No arguments from me there, although you need to go to Franny's too. Somewhat different aesthetic, but every bit as outstanding IMO.

[Daniel]

Went to Sal and Carmines tonight... I must say, the slice was great.. I loved the crust, it was very airy and light. Interesting pizza sauce.. I think I agree with everyone when they say its really good for a "common" pizza place.. Maybe the best. In terms of it being a destination place.. Well i say its up for debate.. Is it a re-occurring destination place for me? No.. Do i think its worth trying once, yes. Does Di Fara's make this place look like sabarros, yes.

Edited February 23, 2005 by Daniel (log)

[Pan]

[...](then again, I also thought L&B Spumoni Gardens was horrible, so Cru and I clearly don't share the same pizza aesthetic)[...]

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Sam, you were much more nuanced in this post in the NYC Pizza Survey thread:

[...]In many ways, it is the exact opposite of the style of pizza we have explored up to this point.  But, in many ways it also works.[...]

[...]How did it taste?  The sausage was nicely spicy and gave a lot of flavor to what was otherwise a fairly pedestrian pizza.  As I said before, using the best ingredients is not part of the L&B aesthetic.  Still, though, it wasn't bad.[...]

[...]All in all, we had a good time and I'm glad I went there.  In the end, one had to throw away old conceptions about what makes good pizza and experience it on its own terms.  Is it worthy of its quasi-legendary status as one of NYC's go-to pizzerie?  Probably not, in my opinion.  We might have been there on a bad day, but I just don't feel that the quality is there.  It's a unique style and worthwhile considering on that basis alone, but I was still left with the feeling that they could be executing their style at a much higher level.

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[Pan]

Daniel, it's too late to help you this time, but another good restaurant near Sal & Carmine's (at least based on one trip so far) is Turkuaz. I'm frankly unfamiliar with those Mexican places up there.

[Daniel]

Daniel, it's too late to help you this time, but another good restaurant near Sal & Carmine's (at least based on one trip so far) is Turkuaz. I'm frankly unfamiliar with those Mexican places up there.

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Yeh.. I went to Noche.. Not a big fan.. Had some spicy chicken soup that was tasteless.. My girl had shrimp diabla.. That was good.. Healthy portion of shrimp served in a red spicy chipotle sauce. Prices were reasonable. I picked up the menu at Turkuaz and a Hatian restaurant called Krik Krak.. Havent perused the menus.

edit: Read the krik krak menu.. I am going to vegas tomorrow, but looking forward to grabbing some kingfish over there when i get back.

Edited February 23, 2005 by Daniel (log)

[jogoode]

edit: Read the krik krak menu.. I am going to vegas tomorrow, but looking forward to grabbing some kingfish over there when i get back.

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Krik Krak is awesome. Try the griot (deep fried pork chunks and fat).

[jogoode]

The cheese and sauce was oily and full of flavor.  If only that slice could trade crusts with one at Grimaldi's, which I had last week, at the height of its crust perfection. Still, it was underwhelming. Though I enjoy the place, I've come to realize that what tops the crust at Grimaldi's is bland.

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While eating Grimaldi's for lunch today, I decided that I had to ammend this statement. I might have been there on an off night; the plain pizza today was great, crust and topping.

[slkinsey]

That's the big downfall of Grimaldi's: they're maddeningly inconsistent. JosephB has been there many more times than I, and he says that it's important to arrive soon after they've fired the oven (they only substantially fire the oven twice a day: once for lunch and once for dinner). The time the NY Pizza survey went there, we were the first ones in the door after they opened for lunch and the pizza was etherial. Other times it has been quite pedestrian.

[banquo]

The one, and only, time I've been to Grimaldi's we were one of the first customers through the door. Even so, I found the pizza much less appealing than what many have said it would and should be. The crust was excellent, but the one problem we all had with the pizza was the fact that the cheese congealed and became unpleasantly hard and chewy after about the first 5 minutes of its arrival. So, while the first slice was decent enough, the remaining slices were not good (this happened when I went to Arturo's as well; and, come to think of it, at Lombardi's too). Is it the mozz. cheese used or what is going on?

By contrast, this has never happend in the many times I've been to DiFara's. Again, what's the difference?

Incidentally, I was at DiFara's last week and had an incredible porcini mushroom and artichoke pie. He puts the porcinis (which he keeps sitting--along with olive oil?--in a huge glass jar) on the pie after baking. Anybody venture a guess as to why he would put the mushrooms on after as opposed to prior to baking?

[slkinsey]

In a companion piece to his newsday article on pizza, which kindly mentions the NY Pizza Survey and myself, Josh "Mr. Cutlets" Ozersky provides a list of "Where to get a great pizza" including the following pizzerie:

Manhattan:

• Patsy's East Harlem
  
• Una Pizza Napoletana
  
• Gnocco Caffe
  
• DeMarco's Pizzeria
  
• Sal & Carmine's Pizza
  

Queens:

• Sac's Place
  
• Rizzo's Pizza
  
• Nick's Pizza
  
• Gino's
  
• Singa's Famous Pizza
  

Brooklyn:

• Di Fara Pizza
  
• Totonno's Coney Island
  
• Peperoncino
  
• Grimaldi's
  
• Lento's
  

Long Island:

• Original Umberto's of New Hyde Park
  
• 34 New Street (Huntington Village)
  
• Massa's Coal Brick Oven Pizzeria (Huntington Station)
  
• Timothy's Pizza (Centerport)
  
• Eddie's Pizza (New Hyde Park)
  

Thoughts?

I have to say that I'm a bit taken aback that pizzerie like Franny's and Fornino -- places I consider among the very best in NYC -- aren't on the list. It also seems a bit odd that Arturo's isn't there either. It may not be as good as Patsy's East Harlem, but it's better than Sal & Carmine's for sure, and better than the two times I've been to DeMarco's as well. Then again, it's not a "best of" list but rather a "some good places" list. As such, it's reflective of Josh's likes and dislikes (which, as a major Di Fara partisan, includes a healthy enthisiasm for DeMarco's even though they admittedly have some kinks to iron out). Overall, though, I think it's a good list. I've been meaning to try Singa's.

[Pan]

Yeah, Sam, we should try New York pizza to an Indian taste. There's a branch of Singa's on Kissena Blvd. (I forget the cross street), but with all the Chinese, Korean, and Malaysian food in that neighborhood, I haven't gotten to it yet.

The name that got me to take notice is Gnocco Caffe. They're on 10 St. near Av. B, and I didn't realize they made pizza. I really have to go back there some time in the reasonably near future.

[EricaL]

Does anyone in this forum remember the Reliable Bakery on 86th Street between 23rd & 24th Avenues in Bensonhurst? I believe the place closed sometime in the late 70s or early 80s. Absolutely the best square slices on the planet! I was so sad to see it go. Not even L&B rivaled the squares that came out of Reliable's oven.

Erica

[Jason Perlow]

It also seems a bit odd that Arturo's isn't there either. It may not be as good as Patsy's East Harlem, but it's better than Sal & Carmine's for sure, and better than the two times I've been to DeMarco's as well.

Yeah, I thought it was a bit strange as well. Arturos is a very under rated pizzeria. its clam pie alone makes it a destination pizzeria, if not for the fact its an anthracite coal joint.

I also think that its a bit odd that no Bronx pizzerias are mentioned either. Considering what an enclave of Italian-American activity Belmont/Arthur Avenue is, and the general quality of foodstuffs and ingredients in that neighborhood, there has to be a few pizzerias there that are worth eating at. Especially Full Moon on 187th and Arthur, which I thought was excellent, even if it is a steel deck gas-fired pizza.

I'm also not convinced Staten Island has no decent pies either.

[R Washburn]

and the general quality of foodstuffs and ingredients in that neighborhood, there has to be a few pizzerias there that are worth eating at.

The only remarkable thing I have found about pizza in that neighborhood is the size of the pies (20"?). I will have to try Full Moon again, but when I was there 2 years ago it was no better than Ivana's.

Arturos is a very under rated pizzeria.

I like Arturo's, all though I am a little concerned about the vermin situation. When we were there a few weeks ago a small rat caromed off of my wife's foot in the middle of our meal.

[Jason Perlow]

and the general quality of foodstuffs and ingredients in that neighborhood, there has to be a few pizzerias there that are worth eating at.

The only remarkable thing I have found about pizza in that neighborhood is the size of the pies (20"?). I will have to try Full Moon again, but when I was there 2 years ago it was no better than Ivana's.

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We had an Ivana's slice and a Full Moon slice a week ago, the Full Moon slice had a much better crust, it was thinner, and a more acidic sauce than the Ivanas slice. Overall it was a much better pizza.

[R Washburn]

Thanks for the update Jason. I will give Full moon another try after my next Teitel Brothers run.

[emmapeel]

Arturos is a very under rated pizzeria.

I like Arturo's, all though I am a little concerned about the vermin situation. When we were there a few weeks ago a small rat caromed off of my wife's foot in the middle of our meal.

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I like Arturo's also, but I had a similar experience. While waiting for my pizza a cockroach (german, not waterbug) boldly walked across my table. Arturo's is in a very old building and long overdue for a gutting and remodel. It might help.

Edited March 7, 2005 by emmapeel (log)

[GaijinGirl]

For your consideration as to REALLY good pizza - a new entry:

Nicky's Pizza - 280 E 204th St # A, Bronx (Perry and 205th cross)

Last night, I had a chicken and veggie slice that was piled up to the SKY - and huge slice - and delicious? Don't get me started!!!! Amazingly good. Anyone tried them before? They're worth it! (Of course, the fact I'd just finished a martial arts belt test only helped with the appetite...but still, very, very good.)