Dave the Cook's Kitchen Reno On the Cheap

[marie-louise]

Once again-WOW-painting those cabinets made the room look brighter and nicer!!!

I'm so confused about these lights. It appears that your ceiling could be about a foot higher without them. Do you think there are heating ducts and wiring in other portion without the lights? Is there a floor above you? Waht I'm really getting at is, could you knock out that ceiling & make the room a foot higher?

You could put a new top on that worktable-and make it extend over the sides a little in each direction. You could get a 30x56 inch piece of John Boos butcher block! If you are not very tall, you could cut down the toekick by a few inches to give a finished height of 34 inches. For ideal chopping and kneading, you want it about 2 inches lower than your most comfortable counter height.

[halland]

Dave,

Are you planning to put a bookcase on the back of that worktable? Either way, an oversized top would allow you to park some stools on the back side, somewhere for your adoring fans to sit and watch you work.

Hal

[lovebenton0]

Looking much better and happier for the cook, Dave.

If you're going with the red possibly red ceramic knobs on the cabinets and drawers pulls . . . even a painted red backboard in the top of the new work space.

[Rachel Perlow]

Are you planning to put a bookcase on the back of that worktable?  Either way, an oversized top would allow you to park some stools on the back side, somewhere for your adoring fans to sit and watch you work.

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Ooh, and then you won't need the table by the proposed pass-through (B), and, if you put another counter-bar at the pass through, with stools in the dining room, you'd have two rows of seating for your cooking show.

I like the idea of red knobs & pulls for the newly painted cabinets, especially since you are doing the floor in red & white checkerboard. If you can't find the right red in stock, you can always paint cheap wood or metal ones -- and do the exposed hinges on the penninsula as well. You're taking the doors off to paint them white, so easy enough to paint the hardware too.

[Richard Kilgore]

Looking good, Dave. My only question about the lighting is, does it throw a shadow over the range top and adjacent work areas when you are standing there? There may be enough reflected light from the now white surfaces for that to be a non-issue.

[Priscilla]

Wow what an improvement. Looking lovely!

Re: individual tile removal, I noticed at the Dremel display, which I always visit longingly, there is a Dremel bit especially for routing out grout! Or at least one that works for that job. Got me thinking maybe there's a little something similar I could plug into my Makita.

The cabinet looks great. Ikea butcher block, not as thick or as sturdy as Boos, as aforenoted, ain't too too bad, and, inexpensive verging on cheap, and might be applicable.

[Dave the Cook]

Rather than add a bookcase to the back, I'm thinking I'll add on to the end with something maybe 24"w x 34"h x 12 d. This will let me extend the work table another foot, as well as provide some support for a somewhat oversized top. (Would a drawing help here?) I won't be able to get all of my cookbooks in there, but I can put the essentials in it. I like the idea of setting the backside up as alternative or additional eating space. I'm still investigating granite vs. wood. (If we had an Ikea here, the wood would be hard to pass up.)

The worktable itself really just needs sanding and painting. It's a very sturdy piece that my parents had custom built about 40 years ago. It's in two parts: the base, which is what I want to use, and the top, which is a bookcase of the same width. The interesting thing is that the bottom of the bookcase is actually the top of the cabinet, so that when you take the bookcase off, the cabinet is topless, making it about 34". I'm six feet tall, so this is almost an ideal height.

I like stainless knob with white cabinets, too, but I think red is essential for this application.

marie-louise, I have exactly the same question about the ceiling. There is a room above the kitchen, but it has a level floor. So why make part of the ceiling 7 feet, and one part eight? Ductwork is the answer that came to mind, but it's an odd solution for a problem like that. I'll see if I can find out anything else.

The lights do cast shadows on the existing counter, but 1) they're not too harsh, because the sources are widely arrayed; 2) undercabinet lighting will soften them even more. But I do expect a problem with the worktable. I need a plan to get light onto the surface from the other side.

I wish I hadn't sold my Dremel when I gave up building model cars.

[fifi]

On lighting for your table... I have seen these track light set-ups that you hook up to the outlet, like where your ceiling fan is, and then the bar that holds the track lights is hung from chains or cables anywhere you want. One of the chains carries the cord from the ceiling outlet. There is a finish plate that hides the place where the fan was. I was going to do that in my house because I wanted lighting over my desk, work area. I was using the "formal" dining room as an office and the only ceiling outlet was in the middle of the room, intended for an over the table chandelier, and the work area was against a wall. I had found one that had the little halogen lights and I loved the quality of the light for working. I looked on the web for what I found and I can't find it now, but I first saw things like that at one of the big lighting supply stores and I think I found something similar a Lowe's. That was about 3 years ago and I never did it because I sold the house.

Your white cabinets are about to convince me that that is what I want in the new kitchen. Almost all of mine are undercounter, but I think the white is the way to go. Man... What a difference. I agree about the red knobs. I have seen those, I think at Lowe's.

Hey! You can shop Ikea from home now... Check this out!

I am all a-lather to see that floor. When are you going to do that?

[andiesenji]

One of my friends had a similar ceiling light problem.

They took out the dropped ceiling, removed the florescent fixtures and put in track lights which were quite inexpensive and could be moved anywhere along the track and positioned to put light at the best angle over the counter prep areas and over the sink and stovetop and one that particularly illuminated anything that was pulled out of the ovens.

The additional ceiling height allowed her to have an overhead pot rail, not a manufactured rack.

It was a piece of U-shaped thick aluminum, made for the top of a hand rail (the open part of the U fits down over the tops of the square aluminum tubes that form the supports) and it was hung from either 3 or 4 hooks, by drilling through the bottom of the 'U' and suspending the rail across the kitchen from the ceiling joists, in a diagonal to get the most coverage. One end, near the prep area and sink, has colanders, choppers, a mandoline, graters, etc., and the other end, near the stove, has pots, lids, cooking utensils, etc. Her husband bought flat aluminum rods, slightly wider than thick, and made a template by drilling holes in a piece of wood and placing a dowel slightly thicker than the rail where the bend that would go over the rail would be and a larger dowel the size of a clothes rod to make the bend where the pots would hang.

I whatched while it took him about an hour to make about 30 hooks, bending, cutting and filing the rough spots off. I helped with some of the filing.

He made a few longer ones for hanging smaller objects.

As I recall, the rail hangs about 4 inches from the ceiling.

[Toliver]

marie-louise, I have exactly the same question about the ceiling. There is a room above the kitchen, but it has a level floor. So why make part of the ceiling 7 feet, and one part eight? Ductwork is the answer that came to mind, but it's an odd solution for a problem like that. I'll see if I can find out anything else.

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Dave,

Lowered ceilings aren't usually lowered to hide ductwork. I've always assumed (yes, I know where that gets you) that the lowered ceiling was just to hide the lighting hardware so the light would look/be recessed into the ceiling. I see by the pics that you started poking around up there. Did you find anything other than the lamp kit (and perhaps a dead critter or two)?

Were there any blue prints of the original renovation made (when the ceiling was lowered)? That would show any pipes/ducts that the lowered ceiling might be hiding.

What if you 86'd the light panels, hacksawed off the metal grid and go with the suggestion of track lighting? Removing the panels & grid would also free up room for a hanging pot rack.

[marie-louise]

Dave,

Lowered ceilings aren't usually lowered to hide ductwork.

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While I find the idea of the low ceiling of an attic dormer a desirable place to read in an overstuffed chair, the idea that someone would CHOOSE to make a kitchen more claustrophobic by dropping a ceiling is very sad. Very, very sad.

Go for it, Dave. (At least start poking around in all the panels-don't they just lift up?)

If this is true, then you can store things on top of the cabinets!

PS One of my kitchen books has the formula for the ideal height of a counter (it is measured from the height of your bent elbow.) I will find it for you. Since this is such a well-built piece, you may want to take it with you when you move. You should get the height right.

[snowangel]

So, as I puttered and pattered around the house today, I wondered just why Dave has a dropped ceiling in his kitchen. Appears I'm not the only one who was wondering such thoughts. So, have you removed some panels and poked and prodded to see if this drop ceiling can be removed?

Shit. Home Depot here had true lipstick red knobs clearanced for $.10/knob a few weeks ago. When I quit puttering and paddering around the house, went to yoga, and stopped at Home Depot today (for roundup), they were gone. Sigh. I'm still hopeful that I will, one of these days, happen on a treasure like your new floor, which I really need.

[andiesenji]

Regarding dropped ceilings. Sometimes the only reason is because the owner doesn't like a period accent.

One of my friends lives in an old house in Pasadena that had been "modernized" in the early 70s, including every room with a "new" lowered ceiling with that awful "cottage cheese" acoustic stuff, however she didn't know that this had been done until there was some damage to the house.

About a year after Gloria bought the house was the Whittier Narrows earthquake and a lot of stuff dropped out of the ceilings. When the contractor doing the repair started in he found that the real ceilings were 18 inches above the new false ceilings which were hung from stringers that crisscrossed the rooms and rested on original molding. The original ceilings were arched, with hand done plaster finishing details and absolutely beautiful. The kitchen had a hammered tin coffered ceiling that was just remarkable.

Removing those false ceilings and restoring the originals cost a fair amount, however it increased the worth of the house considerably more than the cost. The kitchen ceiling alone increased the worth of the house a minimum of 8000.00.

One would think that if someone wanted a modern house they would buy one, instead of a period house and then screw it up by making inappropriate alterations. Really dumb.

[marie-louise]

The formula for determining your correct counter height*

Measure the distance between your bent elbow and the floor. (ex: I'm 5-7, mine is 39-inches, but my 6ft. 4-inch husband's is 45!)

Three inches less than this measurement is the best height for most of your countertops (for me, that's 36 inches; for my husband, 42 inches.)

EXCEPT for tasks that require leaning into the job, such as kneading and rolling out dough-these should be 6-7 inches below your elbow. (for me, that's 32-33 inches, and for my husband, 38-39 inches.)

So, designing a kitchen that's comfortable for the two of us requires different heights! My note-I find my 34-inch high worktable the perfect height for me to chop at.

*from Kitchens for Cooks by Deborah Krasner. THE best book on designing a kitchen I've ever read. the whole book is filled with practical information like this.

[Dave the Cook]

The more I think about it, the stranger this ceiling thing seems. For instance:

-- the top of the light "box" is finished in that "cottage cheese" (andiesenji's term; Usually I hear it called "popcorn") style. Why do that if you're going to cover it up with a dropped grid?

-- the ceiling in the adjacent room is eight feet -- the same height as the top of the light "box."

-- there's nothing above the kitchen that accounts for the dropped ceiling. The room above has same floor level as the rest of the upstairs.

So I'm almost convinced that this is an entirely cosmetic (and stupid) modification, as several of you have suggested. I'm sure this has been keeping everybody up nights. In the absence of blueprints, is there any way to prove this other than cutting a hole in the light box and looking? And if it turns out that there's another ceiling in there, what do I do?

If not, for sure we're looking at some sort of track or monorail lighting for the far side of the worktable. Or, given that the existing fluorescents pump out plenty of ambient light, maybe I can do something stylish with two or three mini-pendants over the table?

As for the table itself, I'd like to go a round or two about the best surface. I know it's well-trod ground, but it's always fun because we never settle it. The choices are: granite, butcher block, ceramic tile, laminate. So far, we're doing well enough on budget that I think any of them are possible, though as always, any money saved goes towards replacing the range. Please discuss.

[andiesenji]

I have butcher block in much of my kitchen, except right next to the sink.

This was installed in '96 and has seen a lot of action.

You have a cutting board just about anywhere. When the cuts get too noticable it gets sanded down, rubbed with a bone hone to "seal" the surface then oiled.

If I can find the hone, I will take a photo of it. My dad made it for me about 30 years ago when I was doing some wood carving. It is just part of a shank bone that has been boiled, had all the fat baked out of it, dried, then ground down so it is about the size and shape of one end of a French pastry pin, that is tapered and rounded at the ends.

My dad told me that at one time that was the way that baseball bats were finished as it made the surface harder or so they thought.

It does make the surface slicker and even without the oil, water will bead up on the wood right after it is done.

Anyway to get back to the butcher block, although a lot of people think they are had to keep up, I have never had a problem. I like the way they feel and I can set anything down on them without worry. If they get a little scorched, that sands out too, however I just think it give more character.

I saw one of the "my kitchen" segments on Food TV a couple of years ago and one of the women chefs said almost the same thing. She showed that everywhere in her kitchen the butcher block counter tops show signs of use but she likes it that way.

I have areas that are marble (for pastry) and one area that is stainless steel, with a slightly raised lip around the edge and drawers under it that can be filled with hot packs or ice packs.

This is for working sugar. I don't use it much any more but it is there if I need it. Right now it has a bunch of stuff stacked on it. (in fact there is stuff stacked all over my kitchen except right in my normal working areas. I am waiting for another storage unit to be delivered...

Granite is ok but I have a lot of cast iron and I learned in my old kitchen that slapping a cast iron Dutch oven down on a granite countertop will chip it........ I was having a little temper tantrum so it was my fault.

I wouldn't have laminate. I have ruined a lot of it over the years, same with tile.

If I had it to do all over again and an unlimited budget I would still have the butcher block.

[intraining]

that me settled then, when i get a place of my own i'll have butcher block, just seems logical really and i love the lived in look.

my kitchen table is a freebie redwood park bench that fed a family of seven for over 25 years, the last 12 of which was in the garden. it was grey and old looking but i sanded it all down and it looks a million with separate benches too. so you see the butcher block theme for me would work as well.

[snowangel]

Counters. Nix on the laminate. It chips, discolors, and gets really sticky. I have had a combo of laminate and butcher block, and liked the butcher block. But, I really love my new granite counters. I didn't have much counter space in this new kitchen, and walked out of the old house with a lot of cash, and the new house was a deal.

Ceiling. The low ceiling clearly bugs you. You have mentioned it several times. It doesn't look quite so low in the photos until you see a door. If I were your wife, I would have already taken that thing past the point of no return. Mayhaw Man would have probably done the same thing! Sure, I have a plan. A higher ceiling!

The potential pitfall with this is that the cupboards go to the current ceiling. Perhaps there are soffits there? One of the coolest things we did in our former house's kitchen was put in a couple of ceiling fans (the ventilation and circulation was well worth it). What was especially cool about these ceiling fans is that they had both up and down lighting. Downlighting was great for tasks, uplighting great for ambiance, and with the two together, wow.

Seriously, think about a higher ceiling before you do more. It would dramatically change the look of the kitchen. (And, yes, I did think about this, this morning, as I got up at 3:00 am to check on Heidi, and noticed how much I hate our sprayed ceilings which are complete with glitter).

[Dave the Cook]

Well, if my ceilings had glitter, I'd just replace the fan with a mirror ball and call it done.

If I had it to do all over again and an unlimited budget I would still have the butcher block.

That's a pretty compelling endorsement.

I've had both laminate and tile counters, and never had a problem with either, so I suppose a lot of it has to do with 1) what you learned to cook with; 2) what kind of cook you ended up being; 3) your tolerance for "imperfections," or, I guess, your definition of imperfections. And I'm waiting for fifi to register an opinion here, as I think she's a laminate person. Right now, I'm leaning towards a red laminate top with an inset tile or granite area. Partly, I'm thinking about the point when I have to change out the rest of the counters. I will always be able to afford laminate. But if I can afford granite or maple for the big runs, replacing the work table top as well won't be that much more.

You're right about the ceiling, Susan. But whatever happens with that won't change what I do about the counter. I can measure and get the top ordered while I explore the upper atmosphere.

I used to have access to huge amounts of redwood, intraining. It's really amazing and beautiful stuff.

[snowangel]

Been thinking a lot about your kitchen. I redid one on the cheap (huge difference) not 18 months before we sold the old house.

Anyway, I see your desire for a stove.

But, when I think about a kitchen, so much more happens in a kitchen than just the stove. One can learn to deal with a stove. In my former house, it was an old electric (prior to the reno). Use two burner; one high, one medium, one medium, one low, whatever.

The kitchen, at least in my mind, is more about the place to be. The place to chop. The place to do homework, mull over life's problems, kiss kids' wounds, ponder meals to be eaten. I would not have immediately replaced the stove in this new house had more than one burner worked, and had the oven got to temp (350) faster than the 1.5 hours it did.

I know what I'd do, but I'm impetuous, and inclined, as I stated before, to take projects to the point of no return without thinking. I'd take care of that ceiling. So, you have holes in the ceiling? Shove some drywall compound in them and paint it (paint is the cheapest fix possible). Go to several kitchen places and fondle counters. Fifi likes laminate. Andiesenji likes butcher block. I love my granite. Pretend you are working with these counters. What speaks to you?

How long will you live in this house? For me, the next time I move, it will be in a body box, so I have gone for just what I want. Lots of living and loving goes on in that kitchen/dining room area here. Just what do you want the place you sit and have morning coffee and read the paper to FEEL like?

My husband just bought me a paint sprayer (to attach to my very big compressor). The glitter (and decade of cigarette smoke on all of the ceilings in this house) will soon be a thing of the past.

[Priscilla]

I've got granite countertops, but also a butcher block table. The table has been with me lo these 21 years or so since I got married, is quite scarred, but I just love butcher block more and more. I think if I was revamping I'd do like Andiebasenji and have miles of it, linear feet anyways. I do like the granite, which came with our present house, for working with pastry directly upon, and it is blessedly groutless. Not a thing wrong with granite, really.

I had laminate on purpose in a former house, where we replaced condo-white generic tile (bye-bye grout) with groovy flecked Wilsonart®. I loved it, would not hesitate to have laminate again. I think one gets a LOT of utility and design depth from laminate for not a lot of money. Course I also had the aforementioned butcher block table along with, but found laminate to be a great work surface for bread and pasta and similar.

DtheC have you ever seen a photo of the late Craig Claiborne's kitchen? He had the most beautiful and inviting marble-topped work surface, separate from his countertops, not at all unlike what you're putting together.

[marie-louise]

My thoughts on kitchen surfaces:

BUTCHER BLOCK IS ESSENTIAL I've had a butcher block surface in every kitchen. For many years it was a 24 inch x 24 inch one that had a top about 1 foot deep; now it is this 30 inch x 60 inch worktable. The first one was even sturdier than my current one. One kitchen had an island stove surrounded by an end-cut butcher block counter-now THAT was handy. I can't imagine not having a kitchen without a run of butcher block somewhere; honest, it's not the same chopping on a cutting board. So that gets my vote for part of the kitchen (not by the sink, of course.)

CONCRETE IS OKAY At the moment I have concrete counters in my kitchen. They are fine but I want to get rid of them. (see my link early in this thread to some pictures and my rationale.)

I VOTE FOR LAMINATE I've had laminate in three kitchens and I liked it a lot. I never had any problems with staining or chipping-one kitchen looked perfect after sixteen years. All of these kitchens had white or cream-colored countertops- I REALLY liked that it looks so clean all the time. I loved being able to roll out dough on something that I could see was spotless.

I WANT CORIAN My next counter in my current kitchen is going to be a soft white (bone) Corian with one big integrated sink. I know some of you think that Corian stains, but I was recently in someone's home that had a 4-year old Corian counter, and I thought it looked fine. She had few scuffs and scratches-that's all. I want a surface that looks as clean as my white laminate countertop-and I want that integrated sink-so this gets my vote for surface worth spending a lot for. It will fade into the background & you'll notice other things in the kitchen.

I WOULDN'T GET GRANITE I don't care for the look of granite. It looks pretty in the pictures, and I know it wears well and is useful, but personally I find it too hard and cold a surface to convey the warmth I want in a kitchen. Also, I'm in my 50's. I've been around the kitchen trend block a few times. Granite may theoretically last forever, but it's trendy. Someday soon granite is going to seriously date a kitchen, and that's going to be a pretty expensive cosmetic remodel. I'd rather have a trendy color on the wall (note my green kitchen) or on a run of laminate, and keep the expensive things very neutral and classic. Edited to add-I think plain black granite, and the black & white flecked granite, will become classics. When I think about ones that will likely be dated, I'm talking more about those colorful patterned ones.

TILE Life is too short to clean grout every day. Makes a terrific backsplash, though-

Edited October 15, 2004 by marie-louise (log)

[forever_young_ca]

Since 1978 each of my kitchens has had some mix of butcher block and laminate. I find that I do 90% of my kitchen work on the butcher block. It is a wonderful surface for a cook. I put hot pots directly from the oven onto it and I chop directly onto it. It wipes clean and always looks great. One large piece of butcher block is much more useful than a traditional cutting board. I would never have a kitchen without butcher block somewhere.

The only thing that I don't do on my butcher block is pastry work. I do that on the laminate. It has seen chopped fruit, vegetables, carved roasts of all sorts, and cut up hundreds of salmon. Depending upon what I have done on it I give it a quick wipe, or get the detergent and give it a good scrub. In 26 years of cutting everything on it in my kitchen I have never "poisoned" anyone. I am a fairly clean cook, but not absolutely paranoid. It has the added benefit of being gentle on the knives, compared to laminate cutting board surfaces.

I would definately suggest that you include a large piece of integrated butcher block somewhere in your kitchen. I would recommend that you do it where you feel that you are going to be doing the majority of your prep work - you will never regret it

[Marlene]

So here's a dumb question. If you chop things on butcher block, don't you get knife grooves in the surface?

[marie-louise]

So here's a dumb question.  If you chop things on butcher block, don't you get knife grooves in the surface?

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Not a dumb question at all. The answer is yes. It gets cuts, but they are superficial. Think patina. My experience has been that they look better w/ age. At first, the wood looks "dry" and every cut shows. After awhile,once you've oiled it enough times, the surface is a little more seasoned and the cuts either show less or the pores get swelled shut-I'm not sure which. End cut maple shows the cuts less than flat grain maple, or maybe it's harder so it cuts less...