Observer Food Monthly

[Fat Guy]

If anybody is interested in reading a relatively comprehensive article on the subject of online defamation, please have a look at:

http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/defamation-in-cyberspace.html

I don't agree with everything in there, in part because I think discussions of defamation law, at least in the US, must begin with some basic principles that the author above doesn't exactly acknowledge. Such suits are a lot harder to win than one might surmise from reading this article. You have to realize that a counselor at law takes a very conservative approach, advising clients -- wisely -- to play it safe. Safer than they have to play it. My background is as a litigator, and when cases come to me they're usually already in court. So I look at it more from the perspective of whether a victory is possible. And I assure you defamation suits in the US are among the absolute most difficult for the complainant to win.

[Jon Tseng]

If one assumes:

i) People have access to the same ingredients

ii) People have a common culinary heritage

iii) People think about food alot

could it be remote possible that:

iv) People think of similar dishes independently of each other?

what's the probability of that?

just a thought.

Jonny T

Proud (independent) inventor of the fried risotto cake, which was somehow copied by several notable italian bistros located in the vicinity of upper street.

[Andy Lynes]

I have definately read about instances where this has happened, but can't remeber specifics. I will try and dig around my completely un-indexed and un ordered food archive and see what I come up with. Anyine else have any examples of this. Strict evidence critieria does not apply in this case by the way!      

[robert brown]

Not having eaten at The Fat Duck or El Bulli, I'm in no position empirically to know the nature of the alleged lack of originality or plagirism that the posters are talking about; but is there some reason way the situation here is any different than in creative endeavors generally? Is what Blumenthal is accused of being any different than what a young Mozart might have been accused of vis a vis Franz Joseph Haydn? And don't early Beethoven quartets sound a lot like late Mozart ones? Also, the discussion reminds me of when in the mid-1970s one could go to Michel Guerard's and have the Troisgros Bros. "Saumon a l'oseille", Bocuse's "Soupe de truffes a Valerie Giscard d'Estaing and a few other dishes by Guerard's 'Nouvelle Cuisine" colleagues. In this instance, however, this special part of the printed menu was identified as a tribute to these chefs. Maybe the problem is that Blumenthal isn't giving credit where credit is due, but borrowing or being unduly influenced by contemporaneous colleagues or even competitors is a natural step in a gifted talent eventually finding his own muse. I assume that Blumenthal is still a young chef, and if form holds true, he will hit his creative peak somewhere between 32 and as late as 40. The only caveat I can think of is that if you're going to cop someone's idea, make sure you do it just as well.  Let me know if there is something in the argument that I missed as I am too lazy to review the thread.

(Edited by robert brown at 4:38 pm on Oct. 19, 2001)

[Lord Michael Lewis]

Andy,

        Who are you to define parameters in which 'evidence' may or may not be admitted?

I could at this very moment post the recipe and photos for Olivier Roellinger's salted peanut and pistacho caramel, I would do the same with Martin Berasategui's bacon ice cream and pain perdu, Blumenthal mentions in a Caterer article from two years ago an unusal pre meal 'sour' that he impressed him on a chef's day out to El Bulli,  curiously it turns up on his menu some months later. Martin Berasategui created the smoked eel, apple and foie gras starter and Olive Oil ice cream well before they reared their heads on Blumenthal's menu.  Michel Bras' biscuit coulant also played its part at Blumenthal own admission. The list goes on and on and is clearly not a monkeys and typewriters thing.

I can and will substantiate any claim that I have made, should Blumenthal be willing to reply in a public forum ie e-gullet (he probably won't) or should he decide to sue (he certainly won't). I won't be browbeaten into doing things the other way around for the simple reason that I have nothing to gain from doing so and don't wish to waste an inordinate amount of my time. In all my posts on the Fat Duck both here and on Chowhound my only motive is to inform others on what I have seen as incorrect goings on.

Should Blumenthal not have been the recipient of such overwhelming praise I could not quite frankly have given a fig. But this was not the case and I having eaten at several occasions at ALL the restaurants concerned found myself to be holding this unique if controversial  perspective.

Besides I really don't care whether anyone believes me or not, least of all Andy 'Nez-Brun' Lynes, and I have never made any effort to persuade, rather it suffices for me to merely inform and let others make up their own minds.

By all means let's leave it at that, Fat Guy and Lynes, but just because I am in a minority amongst the half a dozen or so contributors to this thread I am, like it or not, the most well informed on the subject.

I am also probably the only person who thinks this kind of thing is important so I shall let this post serve as full stop in my crusade and post only in unrelated subjects.

Vive la ignorance!

[Jon Tseng]

Mikey boy; chill dude. no need to start name-calling!

strikes me that debating whether a chef copies another chef is like wondering whether it was michel or albert who ate all the pies (answers on a postcard) . ie sort of amusing but ultimately several omelettes rothschild wide of the point.

hestons cooks stuff. hestons stuff tastes really nice. as a true foodie, that's actually all need to know (apart from what the number is, is there parking and do they do set lunches on the weekend). personally i couldn't care less if he was cooking from the ready steady cook party funbook. go fig.

right, i'm off to start a decent thread on restaurant reviews. anyone coming?

J

PS anyone seem Restaurant magazine. (published by the guys behind restaurantgame.com) a great cross between caterer and [insert name of fairly credible glossy magazine here]. go buy.

[Fat Guy]

Quote: from Jon Tseng on 5:45 pm on Oct. 19, 2001

hestons cooks stuff. hestons stuff tastes really nice. as a true foodie, that's actually all need to know.

I wouldn't go that far. Everything takes place in a context, and a truly fraudulent restaurant should be exposed as such whether its food is good or not. If Lord Michael has the evidence, I'll join him in condemning Heston Blumenthal, or at least I'll join him in insisting that the argument has evolved to the point where only a response from Mr. Blumenthal would suffice to allay the suspicions raised here. Not that he has given any indication that my support would mean anything to him. :)

Quote: from Lord Michael Lewis on 4:59 pm on Oct. 19, 2001

Besides I really don't care whether anyone believes me or not

Obviously, you care quite a lot, since you've taken the time to stir the pot once again. Yet your steadfast refusal to provide the slightest bit of evidence in support of your attacks on Heston Blumenthal's character should be sufficient to convince anybody except you that you simply are not in possession of such evidence. Your attempt to invert the rules of rational discourse, whereby he who makes an argument is expected to be able to support that argument, makes you both impossible to refute and impossible to believe.

This is not some idiosyncratic rule of evidence imposed by Andy Lynes for his amusement; it is simply the way rational people debate one another. And while you continually reference your argument elsewhere, as though you proved something there, the reality is that Heston Blumenthal answered you elsewhere and you never addressed his answer. I wish he'd post the same thing here, just to nail the coffin shut on your argument everywhere it appears, but I certainly sympathize with him if he doesn't want to spend the time. We've extended you every courtesy here, given you the benefit of the doubt, and given you repeated opportunities to make your case. Your only response has been to say you could support your claims but won't, because you possess superior knowledge on the subject.

"I have never made any effort to persuade," you say, "rather it suffices for me to merely inform and let others make up their own minds." Yet nowhere do you inform; you only accuse. Your own conduct serves as the most compelling answer to your accusations.

[Bux]

I hate to join in on this, but it's already so long and boring that I can't do any harm. LM is annoyed because he feels Blumenthal is an exceptional plagiarist (how far our expectations of fine restaurants have come from the time all important chefs strove to follow a classic example for each dish) and because of Blumenthal's press coverage. This topic which took over the thread was in response to a little article about taking some two year old children out to diner to experience their reaction to some unusual and interesting food. I believe the restaurant was described as most interesting. I don't recall a focus on creativity or global originality. It strikes me that one would have to have some prior deep seated feelings about the chef, the restaurant or the journalist involved for that article to trigger such a response.

I've not been to the Fat Duck, but, some time ago, a friend living in the area thought I'd enjoy seeing a menu and sent a copy of it to me. It was interesting and I noted some similarity to some dishes served at Martin Berasategui, but I've noted many similarities between some dishes on many restaurant menus. It's a small world and getting smaller every day. Restaurants that truly serve dishes composed of flavors and tastes no one has ever thought of before are usually really truly awful. It the meantime the Fat Duck and Blumenthal seem to have received some good press in American glossy food and wine magazines as well as in Britain, where all the reviewer journalists are insular if LM can be beleived. One of LM's points seems to be that no one in the British food press has ever eaten outside the UK. I'm sure many American food writers have and they still find Blumenthal interesting subject matter. LM claims to have proven his case of plagiarism elsewhere although he also seems to suggest he stands alone in his conviction. I admire LM's confidence, if that's the best word.

... just because I am in a minority amongst the half a dozen or so contributors to this thread I am, like it or not, the most well informed on the subject.

I am also probably the only person who thinks this kind of thing is important ...

I seriously doubt that Blumenthal's menu is entirely composed of exact copies of dishes first produced elsewhere on the continent, but if it is, LM is correct in understanding that no one else cares. From what I read about Blumenthal, I have every reason to believe he understands what he is doing in terms of the food, seasonings and techniques he is using and that's all I really need to know until I get the chance to taste his food. The idea of taking some toddlers there to eat was a fine idea for an article, by the way and we should consider ourselves fortunate to have an eccentric or two among our posters. It's really boring when everyone's both correct and on the same side of the issue.

[Andy Lynes]

"Who are you to define parameters in which 'evidence' may or may not be admitted?"

Why, I'm the UK community co-ordinator of these here egullet boards, thats who. I of course have no authority what so ever, but was simply attempting to draw this pointless circular arguement to a close.

"Blumenthal mentions in a Caterer article from two years ago an unusal pre meal 'sour' that he impressed him on a chef's day out to El Bulli....Michel Bras' biscuit coulant also played its part at Blumenthal own admission."

Micheal, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the basis of your whole arguement that Blumenthal steals recipes from other chefs trhen passes them off as his own? Yet here you provide examples of where he acknowledges his debt to others. (If you can hear a bumping sound, thats my head meeting with the nearest wall, repeatedly).

   

"I can and will substantiate any claim that I have made, should Blumenthal be willing to reply in a public forum"

You know very well that Heston responed to your claims on chowhound Micheal. Can you tell me why you are #### bent on going through this all over again? You say you have nothing to gain, well you've got peoples attention for one thing, is there anything else you'd like to tell us?  

"I don't wish to waste an inordinate amount of my time."

But you seem to be more than happy to waste mine, having to re run through all this all over again when we have been through this every step of the way else where.  

"Andy 'Nez-Brun' Lynes"

Please explain, I never went to university, I was working in a coal mine at the age of 12.

"I have never made any effort to persuade, rather it suffices for me to merely inform and let others make up their own minds."

Micheal, what you do is make groundless attacks and then refuse to provide evidence to back them up. That is not informing and it is certainly not persausive.

"I am, like it or not, the most well informed on the subject."

We certainly like informed people on this site, I think that's the joy of egullet. We have an excellent mix of passionate amateurs and the very best professionals who can benefit from each others view points, experience and expertise.

What I don't like is when people try and use that to unconstructive and devisive ends.

[Jason Perlow]

Please explain, I never went to university, I was working in a coal mine at the age of 12.

Thats like, an english joke right?

[Andy Lynes]

Well, it's my joke, so I guess it's English, South if you want to be exact, except we don't have any coal mines this way. I was really just trying to take the wind out of a certain person's sales.  

[Bux]

You must mean "sails," as I don't think anyone was buying his line of goods.

[Rachel Perlow]

Real cookbook reviews! (again I guess the Books section would scream bloody murder - but I never see them review Dornenburg-Page's latest...).

Reminder: Andrew Dornenburg and Karen Page are online for an eGullet Q&A right now.

[JasonCampbell]

I'll be honest and admit that the plagiarism argument is over my head- I haven't got the finances or time to eat in any of these restaurants. I've never met the chefs so I don't know their personalities. I saw Heston on a TV show and found it entertaining and informative. But then I am a prole.

One thing I do know is that plagiarism is rife in the 'foodie' world, Delia borrows from Acton and so on. If I take Delia's steak and kidney pudding recipe (borrowed from Beeton who borrowed it from Acton) and adapt it, through experiment and numerous attempts at what point (if any) can it become mine? And if it can never be mine who should I acknowledge as the source of my inspiration?

As to Jay and the Observer, I enjoy his writing, but I do accept that the OFM isn't very good.

Finally, anyone got the latest news on how many angels can stand on the head of a pin?

[wgallois]

After the deeply embarassing crowning of Nigel Slater in first, second and third places in the OFM Food Books of the Year Award (well dissected by egulleteers in Food Media and News), we now have this in the current issue:

Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall

Sunday May 16, 2004

The Observer

My latest tome, The River Cottage Meat Book, comes out next week, and I'm thrilled to hear that the OFM editor reckons it's perfectly OK -appropriate and desirable even - for me to plug it here in my column. So here goes.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/foodmonthly...1214937,00.html

Is it just me, or is anyone else beginning to really, really tire of the endless self-promotion and mutual-back-slapping of the OFM set? I love reading about food but when the OFM mix consists of such advertorials and thrilling insights into Gstaad's top Sloaney chalet-cafes ('Penne a la Geoffrey', Jesus...), I think in future I shall just plonk it straight in the bin and stick with the magazine's much more credible and digestible set of recipes, restuarant reviews and wine column.

[Steve Martin]

Is it just me, or is anyone else beginning to really, really tire of the endless self-promotion and mutual-back-slapping of the OFM set?

It is tiresome and not entirely unlike this board.

I imagine the back-slapping is to compensate for the self-promotion.

I would prefer just the self-promotion.

[bainesy]

I agree the back-slapping and the 'froth' are irritating (Kirsty Wark: "I keep cookbooks by my bed to read at night (my favourite is Nigel Slater))", and it's a shame to have to read HFW merely plugging his latest book, because I enjoy his columns normally.

There's clearly an editorial policy to combine 'serious' food articles with 'lifestyle' ones. I enjoyed the article about vietnamese 'pho', and the (rather slanted against science) one about additives, but "I've never had good sex with a vegetarian" complete with preposterous photos...gawd help us.

I think the biggest disappointment is that it doesn't seem to have developed at all (see the comments from 2001 earlier in the thread).

Mind you - it's better than nothing isn't it?

bainesy

(wondering if anyone else is fed up with Nigel Slater using the odious word 'toothsome' at every opportunity)

[calimero]

There is a discussion on metafilter about this article.

[Paula Jonvik]

I'm new to this site, and I admit that I am confused.!?!

I read all of the rules and regulations before I joined... not something I do all of the time... But I feel that this topic has struck a nerve with more than one of you.

Why don't you all write a review of Fat Duck yourselves and post them all to one forum? Then compare.

All chefs are thieves of sorts at one time or another, as are most writers... It is just down to who gets the copy in for publication fastest!

There is nothing new under the sun fellas, It's all been done somewhere, by someone before, even if in a podunk town or village on the other side of the world.

Where is the generosity? The friendly, inviting support and respect of other people's opinions? Is fine dining in the UK simply about seeing and being seen? Or is it about the enjoyment of the entire experience, food, wine, atmosphere, quality service and most importantly, the bonding between family and friends around the table?

I am not certain that I know anything about anything, but you have gotten off base on this one... Oh, and by the way, I think you must be a Lord in order to call yourself one... Don't be disrespectful to anyone. It isn't attractive to new members to your site.

[MobyP]

Paula - I think if you look at the dates on the posts, you'll see that most of them were made 3 years ago. That's not a piece of vitriol that's ongoing. Still, the arguments here (occasionally) get pretty heated. Do you mean Lord Micheal Lewis by your Lord comment? No - he wasn't - or isn't one. Nor is he a member of the site any more. He apparently was a chef though, who (allegedly) got his start cooking at the Fat Duck (before or during Blumenthal, I'm, unsure). If you're back-reading through old threads (which is a lot of fun to do), keep an eye on the dates.

Bainsey and Calimero - welcome to eGullet!

WGallios - it's been my job to collate the restaurant reviews and food press in the UK Digest every week (haven't had a chance to do it this week yet). Occasionally the OFM was a pleasure - but as you say - G Moore in bloody Gstad? Sex witth vegetarians? It's unbearable (though it depends on the vegetables, obviously). The biggest Sunday food section, and I haven't mentioned the last two in the round-up. And I used to love Nige and his cookey ways - but it's become like listening to 23 versions of Cocacabana in a hotel lobby.

Hmm - did I say the vitriol was gone?

[Stigand]

(wondering if anyone else is fed up with Nigel Slater using the odious word 'toothsome' at every opportunity)

God, yes. That and 'slather'.

'Toothsome' sounds like it might have broken bits of teeth in it. Crunch.

And to slather something sounds like covering it in lather: mmm, soapy.

But having said that, I like his books a lot.

[MobyP]

Toothsome sounds like a desperate replacement for al dente invented by an accountant.

[Steve Martin]

Fearnley-Whittingstall on Slater:

"I applaud the chefs and food writers who have demonstrated that cooking great food from fresh ingredients of quality and integrity doesn't have to be difficult or time consuming. Most notable of these (by far) is Nigel Slater. His distinctive brand of "high-speed real cooking", always prescribed with infectious enthusiasm, is one of the most important contributions to the literature of modern home cooking. Nobody does it better, and I would urge any Slater virgins, vegetarian or carnivore, to pop their cherry with him at the earliest opportunity."

[vserna]

There is nothing new under the sun fellas, It's all been done somewhere, by someone before, even if in a podunk town or village on the other side of the world.

That statement is not really correct - unless the name of the village is Roses, in Spain, where there's a guy named Ferran who really makes a few things no one else ever made before...

[Andy Lynes]

He apparently was a chef though, who (allegedly) got his start cooking at the Fat Duck (before or during Blumenthal, I'm, unsure).

There was no "before Blumenthal" at The Fat Duck, it has been his restaurant since day one. Personaly, I wouldn't believe a word anyone says about our departed (from this site) friend Lord Michael Lewis unless it was his mother, and then I'd still want a polygraph test.