Historical food

[Adam Balic]

I know that many (some?) people on this site have an interest in historic food. Some even have images I hear.

To encourage and to share the following is a 17th century English recipe for stuffed chicken based on Robert May's recipe(s), with an anachronistic sauce of rhubarb and ginger on the side.

Edited July 27, 2004 by Adam Balic (log)

[Maison Rustique]

That looks fabulous! The recent thread here on historical cooking encouraged me to rummage through the cookbooks and pull out a couple to re-read. I'm also on a quest to pick up a couple of the other books that were mentioned in that thread--Food in History, Much Depends on Dinner and Near a Thousand Tables.

[Pan]

Adam, I'm not being allowed to view the image:

You don't have permission to access /picture/sraid131/p2613aeb27c01a686726ac054b8f91626/f7adfe4a.jpg on this server.

Do you have any idea what's going on? I wanna see that food!

[Carlovski]

I could see it before - Can't now.

[Adam Balic]

Eh, no idea. This is my first image post ever, so I am no expert. Maybe there is an evil filter on. Are you evil for instance? I imagine that this is when computer geeks will come in handy.

Appologies to computer geeks, fixed my own stupidity (in this instance hopefully).

Edited July 27, 2004 by Adam Balic (log)

[slbunge]

How'd it taste?

[Adam Balic]

It tasted very fine thank you. Because of the format I doubt anybody would have picked it as being Ye Olde Cooking without being told.

[balmagowry]

Yes, Pan and Carlovski must definitely be evil. Speaking as a computer geek and a food historian, I can tell you that that image normally ought to be visible to all here because it resides on ImageGullet. I have occasionally encountered a similar problem (Jinmyo faced it on my blog, I believe), but only with images that were stored off-site. Some people's browsers are set by default to refuse images that reside on a different server from the page that displays them - it's a security thing. OTOH, I see that Pan's browser is identifying the image as being on a different server even though it's not - said server ID clearly being an evil one.

Another possible explanation, I suppose, is that Adam's original post referred to an off-site image and that he then edited it to refer to a copy on ImageGullet. This would explain his reference to fixing his own mistake, but would be far less exciting.

That looks fabulous! The recent thread here on historical cooking encouraged me to rummage through the cookbooks and pull out a couple to re-read.

Damn! I missed a historical cooking thread???? take pity on me; point me to it, please. Phooey - the things that happen the minute my back is turned - it ain't fair.

I'm also on a quest to pick up a couple of the other books that were mentioned in that thread--Food in History, Much Depends on Dinner and Near a Thousand Tables.

Pick all of 'em up for a song via ABE.Every one of them is well worth having, though the Tannahill book is a bit of a dry read.

I know that many (some?) people on this site have an interest in historic food. Some even have images I hear.

So - spose I really need to pull myself together and start posting those pie and archipelago images, eh, Adam?

Edited July 27, 2004 by balmagowry (log)

[Carolyn Tillie]

I could see it before - Can't now.

Go figure -- I couldn't see it before but can now!

I'm like Balmagowry -- buy 'em all! I can't get enough Historical Cuisine books and continually fight the urge in buying more and more. While I am concentrating on researching and writing about Victorian cuisine, I can't say I really have a preference. I started out doing culinary historical recreation for the Renaissance Faire. Then some Freemasons hired me to create a feast honoring the supposed meeting between Richard the Lionhearted and Saladin (a la The Crusades). Then a group wanted to do ancient Greek and Roman feasts.

It has been downhill from there!

[Maison Rustique]

Damn! I missed a historical cooking thread???? take pity on me; point me to it, please. Phooey - the things that happen the minute my back is turned - it ain't fair.

I'm also on a quest to pick up a couple of the other books that were mentioned in that thread--Food in History, Much Depends on Dinner and Near a Thousand Tables.

Pick all of 'em up for a song via ABE.Every one of them is well worth having, though the Tannahill book is a bit of a dry read.

Here is the historial food thread that I was referring to. (I think!)

Thanks for the tip on ABE. I'll check it out. I also just remembered reading that you had written such a book. I'll definitely add that to my list!!

[Bux]

That's a mighty find looking meatloaf. Okay chicken loaf. Seriously, it rather looks like a nouveau gallantine with or without the garnish, although photographs are deceiving and it could be tutti-frutti ice cream frozen in chicken skin. So, fess up, what's in the matrix and is the matrix starch or chicken?

[Squeat Mungry]

though the Tannahill book is a bit of a dry read.

I do admit she's not in your league stylistically, Lisa! Still, there's lots of good information in there if you're willing to plow through it.

Cheers,

Squeat

[balmagowry]

Here is the historial food thread that I was referring to. (I think!)

Ah - that one. Thank you! Yes, I do remember the beginning of it, but had lost track since. Will go back and bring myself up to date.

Thanks for the tip on ABE. I'll check it out. I also just remembered reading that you had written such a book. I'll definitely add that to my list!! 

Ahhhh... that's what I love to hear. Hope you enjoy. Oh - you'll probably find that one cheaper (at least I hope so) to buy new from Amazon or its like than from ABE. Unless of course you're determined to get the hard-cover. PM me if you are but can't find it....)

BTW, you might want to add to your list the Toussaint-Samat book fifi mentioned on that thread - it has its off-the-wall moments, but it is indeed great fun. Then again, Carolyn is right about the collecting mania for these things: once you get started it is awfully hard to resist continuing. I have more such books on my shelves already than I can ever seriously expect to read, and I keep getting more. The thing is, even if one doesn't read them through they are the most marvelous references when arcane questions come up, so it's not as if they go unused. I guess I've just confessed that my attention span for non-fiction is not what it probably should be. I can lose myself in browsing through antique cookbooks and food history books, but my attention tends to go off on tangents and make me pounce from one to another because of some vaguely remembered connection. Next thing I know I'm sitting in the middle of the floor surrounded by open books and scribbled notes, and damned if I can remember what I set out to read in the first place. I'm telling you, life is rough. And speaking of tangents, I'm not sure what sent me off on this one. But no matter....

Go figure -- I couldn't see it before but can now!

Probably for the very reason I suggested when I got my tongue out of my cheek- I'm betting Adam moved the image and your browser hasn't figured that out. Hit "Refresh" - or right-click where the image oughta be and click "Show Picture" - one of those oughta do it.

EDITED to add Carolyn's quote & response, also more details re acquiring L&SD.

Edited July 27, 2004 by balmagowry (log)

[balmagowry]

though the Tannahill book is a bit of a dry read.

I do admit she's not in your league stylistically, Lisa! Still, there's lots of good information in there if you're willing to plow through it.

:blush: :blush:

Aw... thanks, Squeat!

Yup, there definitely is. Actually, I think there's a reason for the dryness. I'm too lazy to go look it up, but if memory serves Food in History was written at a time when food books, and especially food history books, were far less popular and salable than they are now; I think that the dry scholarly tone was necessary to get people (i.e.,publishers) to take the subject matter at all seriously. I have another Tannahill book which is much lighter in tone; indeed we writers on food history have all benefited from the ground-clearing done by FiH back when it was still the go-to book on the subject instead of one of so delightfully many.

[Maison Rustique]

Lisa, I always want hardcovers when it comes to cookbooks (unless they're really old). I will indeed let you know if I can't find it anywhere.

Now that this has all come up I've hit on a great idea. Don (DH) and his daughters (who live the SF/Bay area) are always trying to think of things to get me for BD and Christmas. They all love to browse book stores (online and storefront). So I think I'm gonna make a wish list for them!! That will make all of us happy and I won't have to send back any sweaters that I'll never wear!

And now just a little aside. When DH and I decided a good many years ago to take our French (language) to a much higher level, we enrolled in classes at a local JC for several semesters. As we advanced and had to write essays, no matter what the subject matter--art, history, literature, etc.-- I always turned it to food and made a recipe from that era/area. Do I need to say that I always got good grades?

[andiesenji]

I could see it before - Can't now.

Go figure -- I couldn't see it before but can now!

I'm like Balmagowry -- buy 'em all! I can't get enough Historical Cuisine books and continually fight the urge in buying more and more. While I am concentrating on researching and writing about Victorian cuisine, I can't say I really have a preference. I started out doing culinary historical recreation for the Renaissance Faire. Then some Freemasons hired me to create a feast honoring the supposed meeting between Richard the Lionhearted and Saladin (a la The Crusades). Then a group wanted to do ancient Greek and Roman feasts.

It has been downhill from there!

I trust you have visited Acanthus Books?

Acanthus Books

[Squeat Mungry]

Actually, I think there's a reason for the dryness. I'm too lazy to go look it up, but if memory serves Food in History was written at a time when food books, and especially food history books, were far less popular and salable than they are now; I think that the dry scholarly tone was necessary to get people (i.e.,publishers) to take the subject matter at all seriously.

Lisa, I think you're spot on in this. I checked, and FiH was originally published in 1973.

From the "About the Author" page:

While she was working on [The Fine Art of Food (1968)], she discovered that, although histories of gastronomy abounded, no one had ever attempted a serious overview of food as a catalyst of social and historical development throughout the world and across the ages.

From the Preface:

When the idea of Food in History first occurred to me, I was mystified by the fact that no one had already written such a book. No one had written a world history of food across half a million years; no one had studied the question of how, over that same period, food and the search for it had influenced both human and historical development; no one had tried to correlate the information turned up by all the twentieth-century 'ologies' -- archaeology and anthropology, biology, ecology, technology and zoology among them.

She adds,

During the next seven years I discovered why. It was not the kind of book anyone with a grain of sense or sanity would have embarked on...

Cheers,

Squeat

Edited July 28, 2004 by Squeat Mungry (log)

[Adam Balic]

That's a mighty find looking meatloaf. Okay chicken loaf. Seriously, it rather looks like a nouveau gallantine with or without the garnish, although photographs are deceiving and it could be tutti-frutti ice cream frozen in chicken skin. So, fess up, what's in the matrix and is the matrix starch or chicken?

Well technically it is a galantine. Another slight anachronism, in 13th- 17th century England 'galantine' refered to a red coloured spiced sauce, orginally containing 'Galingale' (yes the same stuff used in Thai cooking. In the 18th century the word came back from France attached to the preparation that we are know familiar with.

May's recipes aren't in modern recipe format, they assume that the cook knows many of the details of how something should be done and in many cases are more inspirational then instructional.

The are a few 17th century recipes for forcemeat that refer to the use of cream, so I made a basic chicken moussline forcemeat (from the TIMELIFE series actually, so still historical ) and stuffed the chicken with this after adding: Artichoke hearts, preserved ginger, barberries, green herbs, pistacio nuts and interlarded bacon (=streaky/pancetta), flavouring was ginger, mace and cloves.

[Carlovski]

Yes, Pan and Carlovski must definitely be evil. Speaking as a computer geek and a food historian, I can tell you that that image normally ought to be visible to all here because it resides on ImageGullet. I have occasionally encountered a similar problem (Jinmyo faced it on my blog, I believe), but only with images that were stored off-site. Some people's browsers are set by default to refuse images that reside on a different server from the page that displays them - it's a security thing. OTOH, I see that Pan's browser is identifying the image as being on a different server even though it's not - said server ID clearly being an evil one.

I don't consider myself as particularly evil!

I am a computer geek (well by profession anyway) though - the original image appeared to be hosted on imagestation (The sony thing), not imagegullet.

[jackal10]

Galantine, as well as meaning galingale was originally a sauce; some etymologists derive it from the same root as "Gallant", meaning spirited, dashing, agreeable. I give the original, which despite the spelling is reasonably understandable.

Sawse Madame Take sawge, parsel, ysope and savray, quinces and pears, garlek and grapes, and fylle the gees therewith and sowe the hole that no grece come oute and roost him wel, and keep the grece that fallith thereof. Take galyntyne and grece and do in a possynet. When the gees buth rosted ynouh, take him and smyte him in pecys, and taht, tat is withinne and do it in a possynet and put therinne wynne if it be to thyk. Do thereto powdor of galyngale, powder-douce [sweet spices], and salt, and boyle the sawse and dresse the gees in disshes and lay the sowe onoward

Edited July 28, 2004 by jackal10 (log)

[FaustianBargain]

Sawse Madame Take sawge, parsel, ysope and savray, quinces and pears, garlek and grapes, and fylle the gees therewith and sowe the hole that no grece come oute and roost him wel, and keep the grece that fallith thereof. Take galyntyne and grece and do in a possynet. When the gees buth rosted ynouh, take him and smyte him in pecys, and taht, tat is withinne and do it in a possynet and put therinne wynne if it be to thyk. Do thereto powdor of galyngale, powder-douce [sweet spices], and salt, and boyle the sawse and dresse the gees in disshes and lay the sowe onoward

sawge? ysope? savray?..sigh..translation, please?

[Adam Balic]

This is more easy to read:

Sauce Madame:

Take sage, parsley, hyssop and savoury, quinces and pears, garlic and grapes, and fill the goose and sew the hole that no grease come out and roast him well, and keep the grease that comes out. When the goose is roasted enough, take him and smite him in pieces, and when this is done put the pieces in a pot with wine and cook until reduced. Add powder of galingale, powder-douce [sweet spices], and salt, and boil the sauce and dress the gees in dishes and lay the sauce on.

Don't recognise the recipe looks to be Medieval? 13th-14th century? Looks quite tasty.

[Adam Balic]

Galantine, as well as meaning galingale was originally a sauce; some etymologists derive it from the same root as "Gallant", meaning spirited, dashing, agreeable. I give the original, which despite the spelling is reasonably understandable.

Yes I have read this as well. My guess would be that the origins involve both the name of the spice and the French word, I would lean towards the latter, but that's just a guess.

[Pan]

Jack, I actually did get almost all of that, but what is a "possynet"?

[Adam Balic]

Jack, I actually did get almost all of that, but what is a "possynet"?

The only source for this word I can find is from "The Forme of Cury" (oldest collection of English recipes), so it is proberly Anglo-Norman Frenchy talk for a small pot or a pot with three legs. Very common before modern range type pots. Legs prevent the pot from tipping over.