Making Dim Sum at Home

[Dejah]

"Sizzling hot plate" items were a big attention-getter when we had the restaurant, with our own BBQ sauce, curry, black bean garlic or sechuan sauce. But, I am not sure what the "Black pepper sauce"is.

Do you have an secret ancient Chinese recipe to share?

Edited March 17, 2004 by Dejah (log)

[jo-mel]

I guess the sizzling Black Pepper Sauces started with beef. I haven't seen one with short ribs, but I bet it would be good. My favorite, at the moment is a local restaurant that has it with oysters. I'm sure the oysters are canned, but is the dish EVER GOOD! Sliced onions, and as was said --- heads turn when it is put together!

Another restaurant has it with chicken. Their sauce is light in color. It is popular with shrimp and scallops.

When I first tasted Black Pepper Sauce I looked all over for a recipe. NO WHERE to be found!! Not on the Internet, nor any book. I even asked a Chinese restaurant owner I knew, and he had never heard of it. So I came up with my own recipe.

However, now it comes in jars (don't like it) and I've seen it in some books. The jarred sauce is quite dark.

My feeble attempt follows. It is a light colored, but can be made dark with the right soy.

BLACK PEPPER SAUCE

Ingredients:

1 scallion, finely minced

½ tsp. minced ginger

1 cup chicken broth

1 ½ Tbsp. sherry

1 Tbsp. light soy sauce

1 tsp. or more black pepper (to taste)

salt (opt.)

½ tsp. sugar

1 Tbsp. cornstarch

Preparation and Cooking:

--Combine all ingredients in a saucepan and mix well.

--Bring to a boil, while stirring.

--Cook while stirring until thick and bubbly.

--Combine with stir/fried meat and vegetables.

[Gary Soup]

How long before 1997 did the chefs start to leave HK?  I would guess it would be long before  and because of the changeover. A couple of HK banks opened up early in the 90s in NYC's Chinatown, but they fizzled out.

The exodus (by the more paranoid) actually started after 1984, when Maggie Thatcher and Deng Xiaoping smilingly announced the handover schedule. But I don't necessarily credit the Hongkongese with being innovative as a result of the British yoke. It's equally likely a legacy of the Shanghai International Settlement origins of a lot of HK's culture. Ketchup and mayonnaise are two things my wife knows well ("sala" in Shanghainese argot refers to a potato salad remarkably similar to what you'll be having at your 4th of July picnic) and just tonight she made "Russian" soup (kind of a cabbage borscht) which is in the repertoire of all home cooks in Shanghai. The flaky baked pastries stuffed with ham and egg (or what you like) often associated with Hong Kong style bakeries also probably are descended from a single Russian tearoom, Maxim's, in the old French concession. Maxim's ("Mei Xin") made European-style pastries famous in Shanghai in the 30's and was the likely inspiration for the mega-chain of bakeries by the same name in Hong Kong.

[herbacidal]

Gary, where ya been?

I agree, while Shanghai has always had some foreign influence,

Hong Kong had significantly more until only recently.

It's only because there was a significantly higher degree of foreign interaction,

that Hong Kong chefs experimented to that degree.

That's already shifted somewhat and Shanghai is becoming even more of an international city than it was, but I doubt Shanghai is getting an Alain Ducasse restaurant anytime soon.

Regardless, we're only really talking about a matter of degree here.

How much of an influence did Russia have on Shanghai?

I'm pretty sure Beijing's architecture was built under the Soviet influence, but I thought that influence was limited more to Beijing. I don't doubt that Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, etc. have been influenced by those parts of the former Soviet Union that borders it, but I didn't think that influence made it as far as Shanghai.

I have heard of Russian influence on Shanghai in the past, although I can't recall where. The Bund, perhaps?

Please elaborate, Gary.

[Gary Soup]

That's already shifted somewhat and Shanghai is becoming even more of an international city than it was, but I doubt Shanghai is getting an Alain Ducasse restaurant anytime soon.

No, but there is a Jean-Georges Shanghai, if that's the kind of experience that floats your boat.

I have heard of Russian influence on Shanghai in the past, although I can't recall where. The Bund, perhaps?

Please elaborate, Gary.

I wasn't talking about Soviet influence, which is practically nil, unless you count the Pushkin statue, which for a long while served as a de facto "English corner". I was talking about the influence of White Russian refugees from the Revolution. Most of them arrived destitute, and unlike other westerners, were willing to take on any job, not matter how menial or degrading, including prostitution. The were despised by the Euros, who saw them as an embarassment and a threat to the master/servant relationship they had cutivated, but they operated at an economic scale close to that of the local Chinese, and interacted more intimately with them. The trappings of their portable culture, including cafes and cabaret entertainment, were relatively more accessible (socially as well as economically) to ordinary Shanghainese. As a result, "Russian" soup (luosang tang) and a form of potato salad became an integral part of home cooking, not an affectation, to name some more obvious examples.

I'd like to see some serious research on the origins of "Hong Kong" style bakeries. Similar establishments can be found all around Shanghai, and, according to my mother-in-law, seem to have been there "forever".

I'd add that the French were much less stand-offish towards the Chinese than the British and Americans in the concession era, and may also have had some influence, too. (Who would want to emulate British cuisine, anyway?)

[ecr]

[ecr]

And, apparently I have yet to figure out how to use the "Quote" function. Duh.

[Gary Soup]

Just in the nick of time, and definitely on-topic:

A Trip to the Heart of Dim Sum by RW Apple.

Odd that he came to cheung fun so late in his experience, though.

[gus_tatory]

BLACK PEPPER SAUCE

Ingredients:

1 scallion, finely minced

½ tsp. minced ginger

1 cup chicken broth

1 ½ Tbsp. sherry

1 Tbsp. light soy sauce

1 tsp. or more black pepper (to taste)

salt (opt.)

½ tsp. sugar

1 Tbsp. cornstarch

Preparation and Cooking:

--Combine all ingredients in a saucepan and mix well.

--Bring to a boil, while stirring.

--Cook while stirring until thick and bubbly.

--Combine with stir/fried meat and vegetables.

jo-mel--

thanks for recipe~! eGullet has so many amazing contributors. did you put it in recipe Gullet?

not sure if this is the right forum for this question, but i'd like to make dim sum soup dumplings. to get the "soup" part, i understand i make a strong chicken stock, add gelatin, and cut it into little chunks to put in the dumplings. later, when steamed, the stock "melts". is this correct?

it sounds easy, but i bet it's not... experience anyone?

[HKDave]

Since the Hong Kong chefs are innovative, would they be the logical ones to come up with new ideas? Weren't they the ones who gave us that mayonaise topped shrimp -- or was it a scallop?

Are the Hong Kong chefs innovative, or any more innovative than any other Chinese chefs?

I don't think Hong Kong dim sum is especially creative. I go for dim sum 2 or 3 times a week, and it's good here, but it's better (and costs 1/3 the price) in places like Vancouver. The staggering costs of restaurant rent and imported ingredients means there's less value and innovation going onto your plate. Many famous HK restuarants don't even make their own dim sum anymore, it's coming chilled from central kitchens (see: most of the Maxim's group restaurants). In an increasing number of cases they simply suck compared to a decent restaurant in the Chinese diaspora.

Hong Kong chefs don't get the recognition - or pay - they deserve. It's not an environment that encourages innovation. If you want great, innovative Cantonese food, go to Vancouver. Hong Kong has been getting less 'International' for 7 years, although we still can kick Shanghai's butt - for a while.

[Gary Soup]

I don't think Hong Kong dim sum is especially creative.  I go for dim sum 2 or 3 times a week, and it's good here, but it's better (and costs 1/3 the price) in places like Vancouver.  The staggering costs of restaurant rent and imported ingredients means there's less value and innovation going onto your plate.  Many famous HK restuarants don't even make their own dim sum anymore, it's coming chilled from central kitchens (see: most of the Maxim's group restaurants).  In an increasing number of cases they simply suck compared to a decent restaurant in the Chinese diaspora.

Hong Kong has been getting less 'International' for 7 years, although we still can kick Shanghai's butt - for a while. 

I tend to agree with you on the quality of dim sum in HK, based on the few experiences I had there (at places that the locals in my HK office swore by). You could also say the same about the other mid-range dining places too, IMHO, and the good stuff in HK seems to be pricier than on this side of the pond. Food stalls are another matter.

But I wonder why you people in HK are always looking over your shoulder at Shanghai.....?

[chengb02]

I don't think Hong Kong dim sum is especially creative.

The staggering costs of restaurant rent and imported ingredients means there's less value and innovation going onto your plate.

Hong Kong chefs don't get the recognition - or pay - they deserve. It's not an environment that encourages innovation. If you want great, innovative Cantonese food, go to Vancouver.

I think all of this is true, my dining experience in HK over the past few years has tended to be more hype than anything else. But then again, I don't think people who go to dim sum are looking for creativity. Most customers know what they like and what to expect and thats what they want.

As for "shanghai" dim sum, I don't even know if I would include xiao long bao in this category (more for personal reasons, b/c when I go to eat xiao long bao, thats all i'm planning on eating). This is all coming from a weak memory of past dining experiences, but there were a number of dishes that were very much Shanghai type food and also a few that combined shanghai and HK dim sum. I don't know how much HK can really look over its shoulder at Shanghai, as they are almost equals today. If I was out to open a high end Chinese or fusion restaurant, I'd definitely go to Shanghai before HK, but I still think the tastes in China (for both Chinese and majority of expats) aren't ready for too much over the top haute cuisine right now....Though, if it ever gets off the ground (not sure of recent progress), I'm VERY, very interested in how 3 on the Bund will do...

[herbacidal]

not sure if this is the right forum for this question, but i'd like to make dim sum soup dumplings. :

Quick correction:

Soup dumplings aren't dim sum, or at least they shouldn't be.

Soup dumplings as I've seen them are Shanghaiese food, and dim sum is Cantonese.

Although I suppose it's possible that a dim sum place has decided to serve soup dumplings.

[herbacidal]

Since the Hong Kong chefs are innovative, would they be the logical ones to come up with new ideas? Weren't they the ones who gave us that mayonaise topped shrimp -- or was it a scallop?

Are the Hong Kong chefs innovative, or any more innovative than any other Chinese chefs?

I don't think Hong Kong dim sum is especially creative. I go for dim sum 2 or 3 times a week, and it's good here, but it's better (and costs 1/3 the price) in places like Vancouver. The staggering costs of restaurant rent and imported ingredients means there's less value and innovation going onto your plate. Many famous HK restuarants don't even make their own dim sum anymore, it's coming chilled from central kitchens (see: most of the Maxim's group restaurants). In an increasing number of cases they simply suck compared to a decent restaurant in the Chinese diaspora.

Hong Kong chefs don't get the recognition - or pay - they deserve. It's not an environment that encourages innovation. If you want great, innovative Cantonese food, go to Vancouver. Hong Kong has been getting less 'International' for 7 years, although we still can kick Shanghai's butt - for a while.

I don't think I've ever had dimsum at what would be considered one of the really good places, but yea, it gets expensive wherever.

The only place I consistently had it that I liked was this place in Tai Kok Tsui around the corner from my aunt's place.

I theorize that somehow, the government subsidizes/supports/puts pressure on the restaurant industry to have large staffs and the resulting large payroll to keep unemployment down.

Having never spent more than a week in Hong Kong as an adult, I don't know nearly enough about the situation.

I am suprised about the central kitchen thing you mentioned.

There's always been a degree of regional competition between Hong Kong and Shanghai.

I'd say no different than anywhere else in the world.

[Pan]

not sure if this is the right forum for this question, but i'd like to make dim sum soup dumplings. :

Quick correction:

Soup dumplings aren't dim sum, or at least they shouldn't be.

Soup dumplings as I've seen them are Shanghaiese food, and dim sum is Cantonese.

Although I suppose it's possible that a dim sum place has decided to serve soup dumplings.

So I guess that would also mean that the jiaozi I used to get in Beijing aren't dim sum, for similar reasons: A plate of them (or, if you're really hungry, two plates) is a meal.

[jo-mel]

Where does Dim Sum stop and a 'dish serving' begin?

I would suppose the size/amount would figure in it. I've had Stuffed Eggplant, Fried Rice and Congee as Dim Sum in Dim Sum places ---- and as an ordered dish in a regular restaurant, with the rice or eggplant served in a larger amount.

If Soup Dumplings were served 4 at a time in little steamers, would they qualify as Dim Sum?

As for jiaozi -- I don't care where I get them, as long as I get them and lots of them!! LOL!

[herbacidal]

not sure if this is the right forum for this question, but i'd like to make dim sum soup dumplings. :

Quick correction:

Soup dumplings aren't dim sum, or at least they shouldn't be.

Soup dumplings as I've seen them are Shanghaiese food, and dim sum is Cantonese.

Although I suppose it's possible that a dim sum place has decided to serve soup dumplings.

So I guess that would also mean that the jiaozi I used to get in Beijing aren't dim sum, for similar reasons: A plate of them (or, if you're really hungry, two plates) is a meal.

Yea, I guess so.

Strictly speaking, dim sum would only be small dishes of Cantonese food.

I think the size of the dish definitely figures into it.

There are things I would consider dim sum just because they're served in that time, place and manner.

But when those exact same dishes are served for dinner in larger portions, I wouldn't consider them dim sum.

But maybe that's just me.

[jo-mel]

I rarely see Pearl Balls and Scallion Pancakes in the traditional Dim Sum places, but then again, maybe I go to the wrong places -------But the pancakes will be listed in Dim Sum cookbooks or under appetizers on a regular menu.

Have I read somewhere that both are considered to have originated in Shanghai?

[jschyun]

I don't remember seeing soup dumplings at dim sum, though I think it may be from bad memory.

However, I see xiao long bao (juicy dumplings) at a lot of dim sum places in California these days. I don't remember seeing them 10 years ago, but then there's that bad memory again.

[Gary Soup]

I don't remember seeing soup dumplings at dim sum, though I think it may be from bad memory.

However, I see xiao long bao (juicy dumplings) at a lot of dim sum places in California these days. I don't remember seeing them 10 years ago, but then there's that bad memory again.

Some of the dim sum houses in the San Francisco Bay area offer what invariably turn out to be wretched versions of xiaolong bao. It's usually the places that promote themselves as "Hong Kong style" (part of that HK "creativity", no doubt).

[Gary Soup]

I rarely see Pearl Balls and Scallion Pancakes in the traditional Dim Sum places, but then again, maybe I go to the wrong places -------But the pancakes will be listed in Dim Sum cookbooks or under appetizers  on a  regular menu.

Have I read somewhere that both are considered to have originated in Shanghai?

Onion pancakes (congyou bing) definitely have a strong connection to Shanghai, and are a prominent "street food" item, but I can't be sure they originated there.

I have no idea what "pearl balls" are.

[Sleepy_Dragon]

Pearl Balls are balls of minced pork with bits of ginger and green onion in them, with the entire ball rolled in some glutinous rice to cover it, then steamed and served with a soy sauce based dip.

Couldn't tell anyone if they are Shanghainese though, despite the fact that my parents were Shanghainese.

Pat

Edited April 20, 2004 by Sleepy_Dragon (log)

[jo-mel]

Pearl Balls -- Zhen Zhu Wan Zi. Top row:

http://images.google.com/images?q=Pearl+ba...G=Google+Search

I wish I had a photographic memory!! I have a son and daughter who do, but they sure didn't get it from me!! Somewhere I had read about a Shanghainese connection, but just now I looked in "Tropp's Modern Art, and she relates that a woman told her that they were a specialty in Kunming in the 40s. Since Eastern Chinese fled to that area during that time, could it have been-----??????

[Gary Soup]

I wish I had a photographic memory!! I have a son and daughter who do, but they sure didn't get it from me!!  Somewhere I had read about a Shanghainese connection, but just now I looked in "Tropp's Modern Art, and she relates that a woman told her that they were a specialty in Kunming in the 40s.  Since Eastern Chinese fled to that area during that time, could it have been-----??????

I think you are reaching, Jo-mel. My extended family (3 generations of Shanghainese) doesn't know them, and food traditions don't perish in wars.

It's possible they are a variant on some Yunnan muslim food, in which case they wouldn't use pork, or they resulted from somebody's idea of gussying up shizitou (why?), which would give them a Shanghai region conection, I suppose.

Maybe BT just made the recipe up.

[Gary Soup]

Kem Hom seems to think that Pearl Balls are Sichuanese:

"In The Taste of China, Ken Hom shares his memories of enjoying regional variations in "small eats": jiaozi dumplings in Beijing, pearl balls and spicy wontons (known as huntuns) in the Szechuan province."

Dim Sum Article on About.Com

Any references in Fuschia Dunlop's books? She always seems to know what she's talking about. (Actually she posts here sometimes.....)