Story of Varmint's Kitchen Renovation

[Milt]

We had planned to do a major revamp of our kitchen, when the icemaker on our refrigerator began to leak and earped the floor. It seemed wasteful to repair the floor and rip it out a year later - so we did the kitchen two years ago. Our redo included more as we progressed. Initially, we were just going to do the kitchen - cabinets, floor, countertops, appliances and lighting. While we were at it, we added hardwood floors not just to the kitchen, but to the half bath, dining room, living room and entry hall as well. With all of that torn up, we decided to put new tile in the utility room - so we wouldn't have another mess later on. Some of the old kitchen cabinets ended up in the utility room - since it was torn up anyway. The rest were taken to the garage and installed there.

My wife credits luck with much of our kitchen success, but I beg to differ. She did her homework. She contacted friends regarding their kitchen remodeling, looked at model homes, talked to contractors, checked prices, read voluminously - and it worked. Our project was estimated by our contractor to be a three week job. Had there not been a cabinet shipping error, he would have finished on schedule. The replacement cabinet arrived within the week and the kitchen work was completed within four weeks of having been started. Final details, paint, paper, drapes, upholstery, etc. for the dining and living rooms (which weren't a part of our original plans) are still being tweaked - two years later.

As upsetting as delays are, I suspect that the additional time to plan will serve you well. Our actual kitchen job came in about where we expected it to be. The additional costs were the add on projects, which were less expensive overall by doing them at the same time. I kept getting reminded of how much we were saving by spending it all at once.

[Special K]

Ah! "While we were at it . . ."

Right up there with "This will be a very simple renovation when you get right down to it."

I was really lucky; the folks we bought this place from had just done the remodel (exactly as I would have done just about everything) before deciding to sell. I've seen "before" photos! Guess I'm lucky I am right-handed -- I'd hate to have to rip the left-handed faucet out of the granite!!

[Varmint]

Well, it's been nearly a year since I truly focused on this thread. I just wanted to give you an update. I'm hoping that we'll be able to increase our budget on the project so I can do a full fledged renovation. It still may be cost-prohibitive, but I'm now comfortable with doing a complete renovation with which I'll be happy.

As you know, I currently live in a maze. THis is what the design essentially looks like, based on a drawing by Dave Scantland:

When I last posted, I had come up with a compromise set of plans, one that could be done within my meager budget. They looked like this:

After a year of reflection, I've decided to open up the kitchen entirely, and I'm looking at this plan:

What I've done is do what I and nearly everyone else has suggested from from the beginning: get rid of the ovens and closet that just appear to get in the way. I've solved the oven problem by now acquiring a 48" dual fuel range that has 2 ovens. Another problem arises, however, as I don't currently have the wall space for such a large range. Moreover, we need to replace the closet. Where two problems converge, a glorious solution arises!!! We'll build a new closet in the current hall area next to the bath, creating 2 more feet of wall space. This also eliminates the clear line of sight from the living room to the bath near the kitchen, which is a great thing. The center of my kitchen is filled with this strange openness, something that is totally unfamiliar to me. I'm not sure I can handle this!!

What will this cost? Beats the hell out of me. I'll wait until the end of the year, see what my bonus is, and then go from there. I don't need fancy cabinetry. I don't have to replace the fridge or freezer. I'll just be buying a new range and a hood and a couple of new sinks. Flooring? I'm not sure what I'll do. Maybe tinted concrete, as I don't mind working on that. The current tile doesn't bother my legs.

So, there it is. Note that we've already closed off the back door near the driveway, so that step is done. We'll be expanding our pantry by a foot or two.

Comments?

[snowangel]

I think you'll love the more open plan. I went from a huge kitchen to a small kitchen, but the floor plan of the kitchen/dining/living room in the new house is very open, which is what sold us on the house (that and the 2nd bathroom and the tandem 2 car garage which is really a 4 car garage).

But, one of the things I have really liked about my old kitchen and new kitchen is the very tight triangle. I have always been just about able to open the fridge and wash my hands in the sink while cooking at the stove. Your sink looks so far from the stove.

Unrelated to your current kitchen...in our former kitchen, the stove was located in an island. Bad thing if you have kids. Kids just want to run circles around islands which at times, is not particularly safe if the island contains heating elements, hot oil, etc.

Edited to add: Good luck with remodeling hell. This is the second kitchen I've redone in less than 2 years. I'm vowing never again.

Edited December 4, 2004 by snowangel (log)

[Dave the Cook]

I had the same thought as Susan about the sink, but it looks like you've put a prep sink in the counter by the range. Also, I'm not religious about the triangle concept -- the result, I suppose, of having worked in so many kitchens that didn't employ it.

Beyond that, all I have to say at the moment is, "At last! Someone with a decent budget!"

[MobyP]

Wow. That's a football stadium compared to mine. What are you doing about the load-bearing wall between the kitchen and the living room?

[Varmint]

What are you doing about the load-bearing wall between the kitchen and the living room?

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See that little black rectangle at the eating bar? That'll be a post that goes smack-dab through the middle. It'll tie into the steel I-beam supporting the ceiling running above the eating bar.

Obviously, I need to get an engineer in here to check it all out.

[Malawry]

Looks good to me, Varm!

If the bonus is sizable enough to commence work, do you plan to have this completed before the next pig picking?

[fifi]

I think your solution to the oven problem is just brilliant. I also opted for the dual fuel range because, even in a rather large kitchen, the wall ovens just didn't fit anywhere. I have had the range concept before, and do now, and I like it. I am short. With wall ovens, I could never see down into that braising pot in the top oven.

Adding the two feet to the pantry is a very good thing. You can never have too much pantry.

With all of that open space, there may be a use for one of the roll around workspaces like this.

Susan, I had never thought of the safety issues with an island cooktop. I have never had one and it is a long time since I had little ones underfoot. You make a very good point. I will remember that when friends ask advice.

[marie-louise]

It's looking good! Inspired idea about the closet.

My two cents: Whenever I look at this floorplan, I still see a galley kitchen w/ a little bump-out addition. Varmit, I love cooking in a tight space more than I tell you. It is so nice to be able to pivot and reach without taking lots of steps back and forth across a kitchen There's a reason most professional kitchens are set up this way!

If this were my kitchen, I would delete that whole area of cabinets next to the driveway. It looks gratuitous to line each and every wall w/ cabinets. I'd put a window seat and a little table there, or an armchair and some low bookcases to sit and read, or a desk. On the blueprint, it looks like it wants to be its own little breakfast nook area.

One last suggestion-I would line up one, if not both, edges of the "little varmit counter" with something. It seems odd-at least on paper-that it takes a little jag. I'd line it up w/ the edge of the Sub Zero plane. I'd also make it deeper-probably 3 ft. wide or so, and instead of the sink, square off the edge and have a piece of chopping block counter right by the stove. In other words, the entire counter that faced the living room would be one surface, and once it turned a right angle, there would be a chopping block. Actually, I'd think about one of those free-standing chopping blocks that are about 1 ft. thick & 24x24 I once had one next to a stove and it was a wonderful surface for prep work.

I much prefer kitchens that are not lined with cabinets (I especially dislike over-the-counter cabinets) so forgive me for showing my bias in offering you suggestions.

[Varmint]

Looks good to me, Varm!

If the bonus is sizable enough to commence work, do you plan to have this completed before the next pig picking?

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Yes, if we can do it, the kitchen will be done well in advance of the pig pickin'. Yeah!

[Varmint]

It's looking good! Inspired idea about the closet.

My two cents: Whenever I look at this floorplan, I still see a galley kitchen w/ a little bump-out addition. Varmit, I love cooking in a tight space more than I tell you. It is so nice to be able to pivot and reach without taking lots of steps back and forth across a kitchen There's a reason most professional kitchens are set up this way!

If this were my kitchen, I would delete that whole area of cabinets next to the driveway. It looks gratuitous to line each and every wall w/ cabinets. I'd put a window seat and a little table there, or an armchair and some low bookcases to sit and read, or a desk. On the blueprint, it looks like it wants to be its own little breakfast nook area.

One last suggestion-I  would line up one, if not both, edges of the "little varmit counter" with something. It seems odd-at least on paper-that it takes a little jag. I'd line it up w/ the edge of the Sub Zero plane. I'd also make it deeper-probably 3 ft. wide or so, and instead of the sink, square off the edge and have a piece of chopping block counter right by the stove. In other words, the entire counter that faced the living room would be one surface, and once it turned a right angle, there would be a chopping block. Actually, I'd think about one of those free-standing chopping blocks that are about 1 ft. thick & 24x24 I once had one next to a stove and it was a wonderful surface for prep work.

I much prefer kitchens that are not lined with cabinets (I especially dislike over-the-counter cabinets) so forgive me for showing my bias in offering you suggestions.

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Even though I'll have more pantry space, I need the cabinets by the driveway, as I'll have very little effective cabinet space as a result of this renovation. Because of the sink, icemaker, dishwasher and wine fridge, the lower cabinet space across from the Sub-Zeros is almost non-existant (except for silverware drawers, for example. Plus, the cabinets by the driveway will be lower only, as we have huge windows along that side. Yes, that would give me even more reason to make that a breakfast nook in theory, but again, I do like some cabinets in my kitchen.

Yeah, the little jag the eating counter takes is not ideal, but we may be at the mercy of the structural elements of the house. We'll see about that.

As far as countertop is concerned, I'm likely to use tile for the entire cooking area and eating counter. I like tile, particularly because I can put red-hot pans on it. I don't anticipate having bright red tile anymore, but something colorful nonetheless. Green or blue, for example. The counter on the short side of the driveway cabinets will be a piece of white marble we already have -- that's my pastry area. The longer side of that "L" can be almost anything. Even cheap stuff. But I'm somewhat partial to stainless. This is open for discussion, but this area will be a busy prep spot when we have guests. I'm not a fan of built in wood countertops. I don't want to worry about it and like the mobility of my cutting boards.

Yes, this is open, but this kitchen isn't nearly as large as this drawing appears. Yes, I may be able to put in some sort of island in the open space, but that can come later. I've been cramped for so long, that it'll be a great change to be wide open.

[Varmint]

I met with the contractor last week, and it looks as if this project is a "go." I've made a slight change in the plans, and this also makes a lot of sense.

First, we're bringing the pantry all the way out to the end of the wall that's beside the range. Second, I'm moving the wine refrigerator and ice maker underneath the eating bar. That consolidates some plumbing in that area, and it makes it easier to get drinks for guests.

With the expanded pantry, I'll go with the 36 inch range, which has a BIG oven. This is what I'm getting: GE Monogram 36" Dual Fuel Range.

Over by the driveway windows, near my baking/pastry station, I'll add a 27" convection oven: GE Monogram 27" Oven. It'll be easy to install in this location, as we're already wired for 220.

I'm likely to go with stained concrete as my flooring. It's easy, I can put down commercial rubber mats if necessary for my legs, but I'm really focusing on durability and ease of use (and low cost!). Regardless, once we remove the existing tile, we're going to have to pour concrete anyway, so this'll be the simplest solution.

The counters will be mostly tile. We'll need to look and see what's available, but our contractor is a tiling genius. We'll go with large tiles with minimum grout.

[marie-louise]

I like all your changes. You can never have too big a pantry!

I still wish you'd make that peninsula deeper-so it lines up w the edge of your Sub-Zero on the inside of your kitchen. That way, you will only have to pivot from the stove to get your mise-and the living room side can be set for eating at the same time as you are cooking. A very deep counter is such a useful thing to have in a kitchen.

What did the contractor say about the support beam in the middle of the peninsula? Can you strengthen the ceiling so it's not required?

That baking area is looking good! Now that you moved the pantry wall and shortened the DW counter, it looks like it belongs there: you've got a main cooking area and another area for baking. Inspired! This would be a nice place for granite.

Edited December 14, 2004 by marie-louise (log)

[forever_young_ca]

This looks so good - I am insanely jealous of anyone with the luxury of two ovens.

Such an improvement over the original!

Just a couple of questions:

Over by the driveway windows, near my baking/pastry station, I'll add a 27" convection oven:

Does a half sheet pan fit into a 27" oven? I have half sheet pans that just fit into a 30" oven, but I know ovens vary considerable depending upon self cleaning insulation widths etc.

I'm likely to go with stained concrete as my flooring

What is the cleanability of stained concrete? I have seen stampcrete floors in some restaurants that are uneven surfaces and they always seem to have bits of food stuck in the dips and angles. However, I am assuming that stained concrete is a smoother surface and therefore very easy to clean.

What is the stain factor of concrete? If you or the kids drop mustard on it and it doesn't get cleaned right away will you end up with a permanent stain? Perhaps this adds to the character of the floor?

[Varmint]

I like all your changes. You can never have too big a pantry!

I still wish you'd make that peninsula deeper-so it lines up w the edge of your Sub-Zero on the inside of your kitchen. That way, you will only have to pivot from the stove to get your mise-and the living room side can be set for eating at the same time as you are cooking. A very deep counter is such a useful thing to have in a kitchen.

What did the contractor say about the support beam in the middle of the peninsula? Can you strengthen the ceiling so it's not required?

That baking area is looking good! Now that you moved the pantry wall and shortened the DW counter, it looks like it belongs there: you've got a main cooking area and another area for baking. Inspired! This would be a nice place for granite.

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This drawing has lost some semblance of scale, but the counter won't be as offset from the SubZeros as it appears. I do understand your concern!!

We'll need the post, and, in fact, it'll create a great design element, as we'll likely cover it with tile, too!

We've already got lots of existing marble to go in the baking area, so we're fine for now. My contractor can cut the existing pieces to size. Yeah!

[Varmint]

This looks so good - I am insanely jealous of anyone with the luxury of two ovens.

Such an improvement over the original!

Just a couple of questions:

Over by the driveway windows, near my baking/pastry station, I'll add a 27" convection oven:

Does a half sheet pan fit into a 27" oven? I have half sheet pans that just fit into a 30" oven, but I know ovens vary considerable depending upon self cleaning insulation widths etc.

I'm likely to go with stained concrete as my flooring

What is the cleanability of stained concrete? I have seen stampcrete floors in some restaurants that are uneven surfaces and they always seem to have bits of food stuck in the dips and angles. However, I am assuming that stained concrete is a smoother surface and therefore very easy to clean.

What is the stain factor of concrete? If you or the kids drop mustard on it and it doesn't get cleaned right away will you end up with a permanent stain? Perhaps this adds to the character of the floor?

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I currently have two 27" ovens, and a large cookie sheet fits in them. With the large oven in the range, I can go with the 27" as my "second", baking oven. I haven't ruled out a 30" oven, but I'm not sure if the incremental cost is justifiable.

I'm still researching the concrete angle. It'll be fairly smooth, with just enough grit to avoid me busting my ass! We do seal it, to avoid the stain problems. I'd love to hear others' thoughts about concrete.

[forever_young_ca]

but I'm not sure if the incremental cost is justifiable

Agreed - especially since you have the luxury of a 36" oven as well

[Varmint]

I just noticed that the oven in the range is 27", so I may end up going with a 30". No big deal, regardless.

[Rachel Perlow]

If your second oven in the baking area is electric, then why bother with the added expense of the dual fuel range? You may as well go all gas over there.

[marie-louise]

If your second oven in the baking area is electric, then why bother with the added expense of the dual fuel range? You may as well go all gas over there.

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Yes, then he could have one of those nice gas ceramic broilers! Gas ovens heat faster & cook moister-good for roasting. It would be ideal to have one of each.

Make sure your pans fit in THAT oven-interior size varies, I believe.

Marble baking area-that sounds nice.

Okay, when do 'ya start-I want to see the finished pictures!!!

[Varmint]

If your second oven in the baking area is electric, then why bother with the added expense of the dual fuel range? You may as well go all gas over there.

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Two words: Self Cleaning

[Daddy-A]

I just noticed that the oven in the range is 27", so I may end up going with a 30".  No big deal, regardless.

Glad you noticed that! I was just about to check my spec books since I was pretty sure the oven in the range was smaller. My oven rule-of-thumb with my clients is "go as big as you can afford" with afford refering to both cost and space. With a range AND the extra wall oven, I think you'd regret not going with the 30" wall oven. I won't mention the 36" wall ovens offered by Wolf, Dacor and others

A.

[fifi]

I am guessing that you don't have room for the 48 inch range. That is my baby. I like that little oven as it can be set to proof bread and make yogurt. That also gets me a griddle.

[Varmint]

I am guessing that you don't have room for the 48 inch range. That is my baby. I like that little oven as it can be set to proof bread and make yogurt. That also gets me a griddle.

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It's not that the 48" wouldn't fit, it just leaves precious little space in the corner near the sink. Plus, the cost of the 48" range and 48" hood is more than a 36" range, a 36" hood, and a 30" oven!