Real, authentic, thai food

[ExtraMSG]

I did a little searching and couldn't find a discussion, so pardon me if I missed it. I just got back from LA where I hit two Thai restaurants. One was just a random restaurant. The other was Ruen Pair.

I live in the Pacific NW and have eaten Thai mostly in Seattle and Portland. People often complain about our Thai food saying that it's not authentic and usually note that it's overly sweet. It's certainly the case that many of the upscale Thai places do have relatively sweet dishes and often fuse northwest ingredients (salmon, orchard fruits, etc) with Thai dishes.

But honestly, I couldn't tell a significant difference between Ruen Pair and some of the decent lower-end Thai places in Portland (although the prices at Ruen Pair seemed phenomenal with almost nothing over $5).

My question is: where's the real, authentic stuff in the US and what differences have you noticed regionally in the US for Thai food?

I probably won't get to Thailand any time soon and I am truly interested.

[jhlurie]

Well Mamster would be the best person to question about PacNW Thai food, obviously, but I think one thing which has been established here is that the "authenticity" argument gets much more, er... bullshitty (for lack of a better term), with Thai food than most other cuisines, because Thai food is already a huge hybrid of other influences, plus is also extremely diverse between its own regional dishes. And nowhere in the US are you likely to get 90% of what's served in Thailand, although that's more a comment about variety as opposed to "quality" or "authenticity".

As predictable as this argument is... I'm guessing the only way to find the "best" Thai food in the US is to play a game of "follow the immigrants". I'd imagine that places with large Thai populations would tend to produce the MOST Thai restaurants numerically, and therefore probably the most "authentic" ones, if you believe the occasionally maligned concept that people of a certain background tend to eat the most authentic versions of their own food.

[fifi]

Here in Houston, I have not encountered the excessive sweetness that I have heard discussed for Thai in your parts. We have a truly excellent place here in the bay area (Galveston Bay) called Thai Seafood. It is not a cheap place but they achieve the right balance of flavors and is always highly rated. I have never been to Thailand but was introduced to Thai cuisine many years ago in Honolulu at Keo's. Keo's was, at the time, judged to be one of the best Thai restaurants in the world. That is the standard that I judge against, right or wrong. The one thing I haven't found here are the delightful little deep fried spring rolls that are served to be wrapped in a lettuce leaf with a mint or basil leaf, a slice of cucumber, and hot peanut sauce.

I used to travel to the PNW fairly often and didn't go to any Thai places just because I had heard from some of my well traveled friends that most of them sucked because of too much sugar.

I have a very good friend that learned Thai cuisine from a Thai family in a previous home town. Her dishes are fabulous and do not suffer from sweetness but have just the right balance.

Maybe someone should start a discussion in your local press about excessive sweetness. I am trying to get that going here about the pervasive practice of screwing up foie gras with sweet glop. But, that is another rant.

[jhlurie]

Maybe someone should start a discussion in your local press about excessive sweetness

Mamster, under the strange alternate identity of "MATTHEW AMSTER-BURTON" has apparently written for the Seattle Times. Maybe he can sell them on this idea.

Do any of your regions have distict differences between Thai restaurants which serve "fancy-plate" food and "homestyle" food? (my own terminology...)

[ExtraMSG]

Fifi:

The only Thai I've had in Texas was in Dallas at the more Pan-Asian Liberty Noodles. It was excellent food, though how "authentic" it was I have no clue. It just tasted great. But I would say it was closer to the upscale places in the PNW than Ruen Pair in LA.

I think it was sweeter, more colorful, and more refined (eg, very smooth sauces and clear broths) using higher end meats and vegetables that were prepared to New American/French standards.

[Raynickben]

Extra MSG: Did you know Liberty Noodles is now closed?! I loved that place.

I had some really great Thai at "Curry in a Hurry" in Lake Oswego. But I'm no expert on Thai.

Edited December 31, 2003 by Raynickben (log)

[ExtraMSG]

Yep, I heard that. Not entirely surprising. They should have kept their original location. They were really slow, too. I think they always seemed busy because they didn't move the people through. Great stuff, though. Loved their soups and curries. Hopefully they'll reopen or open something new but smaller that they can maintain.

[Pan]

I've always been impressed with Thai restaurants in San Francisco. I have no idea how authentic you'd rate them, ExtraMSG, but they seemed pretty real to me. It's too long ago for it to make any sense for me to mention names, though, even if I remembered names (and I don't).

[ExtraMSG]

I would think you'd have some pretty "authentic" Thai in NY. Do you remember at all how it differs from SF Thai? I've had Thai food in SF and didn't find it unusual as compared with Portland or Seattle.

Another thing I found interesting was that some people often complain that Portland Thai isn't spicy enough, but the stuff I had at Ruen Pair was rather mild, I thought, and when they asked I even said "spicy".

[wesza]

Well Mamster would be the best person to question about PacNW Thai food, obviously, but I think one thing which has been established here is that the "authenticity" argument gets much more, er... bullshitty (for lack of a better term), with Thai food than most other cuisines, because Thai food is already a huge hybrid of other influences, plus is also extremely diverse between its own regional dishes.  And nowhere in the US are you likely to get 90% of what's served in Thailand, although that's more a comment about variety as opposed to "quality" or "authenticity".

JHLURIE:

As predictable as this argument is... I'm guessing the only way to find the "best" Thai food in the US is to play a game of "follow the immigrants".  I'd imagine that places with large Thai populations would tend to produce the MOST Thai restaurants numerically, and therefore probably the most "authentic" ones, if you believe the occasionally maligned concept that people of a certain background tend to eat the most authentic versions of their own food.

You are correct regarding Thai Food in the States: Taking into consideration that the most well known Thai Restaurants are not operated by a Thai: "Keo's".

What's quite unusual is that there are almost no Thai Restaurants being operated by Thai Professional Restaurant People. In my experience with this situation is that 2 Thai Chefs whom I assisted in getting Green Cards in the early 1970's is any indication both the Have become owner operators of some of the most popular NYC Bagel Business since they were smart enough to follow the money and profit by the opportunity. Isn't that similar to what has happened in NYC's Retail Produce Business not predominently Korean or the Dry Cleaning Business on both Coasts.

I have been hopping that eventually superior Thai Restaurants will begin to evolve, where the cusine and menus will become available, especially Thai Seafood and Poultry Dishes have a long way to go. In the Seattle/Tacoma area we have several that seem to be heading in this direction.

I think that you should patent the wonderfull new multi-purpose definition that you've invented as it's sure to become popular "BULLSHITY" it is in many case a new and better term. Certainly as a discription of so many of all types of "Contrived Restaurants" but even more things can suit the unique allocade.

Irwin

Edited December 31, 2003 by wesza (log)

[Pan]

I would think you'd have some pretty "authentic" Thai in NY. Do you remember at all how it differs from SF Thai? I've had Thai food in SF and didn't find it unusual as compared with Portland or Seattle.

I had wonderful Thai food when I was in Seattle, but I've never been to Portland, OR so far.

We have lots of very inauthentic Thai food in New York. It's really, really difficult to find Thai food that isn't overly sweet and wimpily unspicy for Americans. The only really authentic-tasting Thai restaurant I've been to in New York in the last few years is Sripraphai in Woodside, Queens. Yet based on my two meals there, I think its quality is about on par with a good neighborhood Thai restaurant I used to go to on Market St. near the Safeway that I think is not far from Castro St. in SF.

What's better about SF (probably West Coast in general) Thai than New York Thai is that it's spicier, tastier, and just plain better.

[fifi]

What is it about Houston? Our Thai restaurants are typically owned by Thai nationals. A work associate of mine is married to a lady from Thailand and they own a restaurant, Thai Gourmet I think, on Richmond. Thai Seafood that I previously mentioned is owned by a Thai family. The same is true of Thai Pepper, an early Thai institution here. Are we just lucky? Houston is an amazingly diverse city. Maybe we are lucky.

[Pan]

You probably get spicier Thai in Houston because the regional American cuisine in those parts often has a lot of chili in it, right?

[fifi]

Hmmm... that is an interesting point. Yes, we are used to chile heat, pretty much. But I don't think that is what is going on. We just have a very diverse population and access to a lot of good ingredients. Well, at least the restaurants do. (My rants about the lack of farmer's markets here is well known.) But our Thai food is not just about heat. They seem to get the balance right. Well, at least to me. I haven't run into "sweet" here at all.

[Pan]

Is barbecue sauce typically sweet in the Houston area? (I ask, of course, because I'm wondering about any correlation.)

[fifi]

Sweet BBQ sauce?

GET A ROPE!

Actually, BBQ sauce is not a big deal here. I can't put my finger on a typical "south Texas" sauce like you can the Carolinas for instance. A worthy beef brisket needs no sauce.

[Pan]

Fifi, you'd be amazed (and disgusted) by the sweet barbecue sauce served at places like the Dallas BBQ chain in New York.

Looks like a big part of the problem is that a lot of New Yorkers like everything sweet. For my part, sweet peanut sauce is OK with me - heck, I'm used to that from Malaysian satay, and the Thai Masaman curries are really just good Thai versions of Muslim - that is, Malay - curries from the former Malay sultanates that were "repossessed" by the Thai Empire for delinquency in tribute payment in the 19th century. But I don't want my Tom Yam Gung, Som Tom, or Jungle Curry (if I'm lucky enough to see it on a menu) to be sweet and wimpy on the spice. Gimme spicy and tasty, damn it!

[balex]

off topic -- but I cooked a truly excellent Tom Yum last night with prawns that was among the best I have ever tasted -- including ones in Thailand because they almost always overcook the prawns there. I was really pleased and proud of myself. Just sharing.

[fifi]

What I have learned from my friend, that learned from excellent Thai cooks and restauranteurs, is that it is all about the balance between "hot, sweet, sour, salty". If you stray too far in any direction you have missed the point.

[balex]

There is some Thai phrase that recipes traditionally end with which translates as 'adjust seasoning until it tastes right'. Not very helpful for beginning cooks.

[fifi]

Yeah balex... You are correct. But, I often do a tasting when making a soup or whatever. After tasting I might add a little lime juice or palm sugar. Thai cooking takes some time to get into. Once you do, it is not all that intimidating. But, having sweet prevail is just wrong.

[Mabelline]

Now I'm just amazed. Up here in frozen Billings (1*), we have Thai Orchid, NaRa Korean, & Korean Groceries, a store/restaurant combo. And all three are very good, very spicy, very delicious.

[Pan]

That is extraordinary, Mabelline. To what do you attribute this?

[fifi]

It is beginning to sound like "fly over country" has it all over SF, NY, etc.

[Mabelline]

I guess it might be the fact that Billings has a couple of refineries, mines close by, two hospitals (BIG ones), a University, and a college.We have Chinese in abundance (restaurants), Greek, Japanese, and a bunch I'm forgetting. But the successful ones are good, for the most part, and they have customers aplenty because there are so many noncooks, I reckon.

As an aside I read a real nice Korean cookbook a while ago that mentioned 5 flavors (bitter). I'd not heard that before.