The Food Safety and Home Kitchen Hygiene/Sanitation Topic

[NancyH]

As far as making large quantities of dense protein rich stuff, and other liquids (stock, soup, beans, or stew), don't do it too much it's too much of a hassle to cool to room temp.

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I use an Ice Paddle, which I got at a restaurant supply store, to cool off large pots of sauce, stew, and soup safely. I also don't start even trying to cool the pot down until it gets down to about 150 degrees (140 is the start of the danger zone). The paddle was about $25 and it really takes the chore out of cooling things.

[Hawthorne]

As a once was chemistry major - dihydrogen monoxide ...

is water

Funny!

Maliaty

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groooaaann ... so it is :-)

Should we start a new thread on water quality .. ?

Don't get me started!java script:emoticon(':laugh:')

[coquus]

As far as making large quantities of dense protein rich stuff, and other liquids (stock, soup, beans, or stew), don't do it too much it's too much of a hassle to cool to room temp.

Don't make stock or soup or stew? Are you kidding me?

I've never had food poisoning. I make a lot of stock. This kind of paranoia is beyond me.

Paranoia would make sense if you lived 100+ years ago in any American city, when the risk of dying from tainted foods (ie spoiled milk) was quite high. Compared to most any other time in history, our food supply is incredibly safe.

I'm much more concerned about the decline in the quality of food production due to overzealous health dept. rules-making sushi chefs wear gloves, new EU regulations killing artisinal products in Europe, etc.

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I'm just saying for the home cook making vast quantities of anything is asking for trouble, unless you keep it warm until service. How are they going to cool this down, more often than not they stick it in their fridge which, more than likely, is poorly equipped to handle large quantitys of steam and heat radiation it causes. A quart or two of leftovers is one thing, a couple of gallons of hot stock you better have an ice paddle, shallow pans, or some serious cooling set up or your asking for trouble especially if you are serving anybody who is at risk. I for one don't know any home cook who has any of these things. And the argument that it was much easier to die 100 years ago, sure, but are we comfortable with what we acheived?

I hear you on ridiculous rules however.

[rooftop1000]

As far as making large quantities of dense protein rich stuff, and other liquids (stock, soup, beans, or stew), don't do it too much it's too much of a hassle to cool to room temp.

Don't make stock or soup or stew? Are you kidding me?

I've never had food poisoning. I make a lot of stock. This kind of paranoia is beyond me.

Paranoia would make sense if you lived 100+ years ago in any American city, when the risk of dying from tainted foods (ie spoiled milk) was quite high. Compared to most any other time in history, our food supply is incredibly safe.

I'm much more concerned about the decline in the quality of food production due to overzealous health dept. rules-making sushi chefs wear gloves, new EU regulations killing artisinal products in Europe, etc.

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I'm just saying for the home cook making vast quantities of anything is asking for trouble, unless you keep it warm until service. How are they going to cool this down, more often than not they stick it in their fridge which, more than likely, is poorly equipped to handle large quantitys of steam and heat radiation it causes. A quart or two of leftovers is one thing, a couple of gallons of hot stock you better have an ice paddle, shallow pans, or some serious cooling set up or your asking for trouble especially if you are serving anybody who is at risk. I for one don't know any home cook who has any of these things. And the argument that it was much easier to die 100 years ago, sure, but are we comfortable with what we acheived?

I hear you on ridiculous rules however.

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In the time it takes to make a good stock ......make ice bags or bottles. Use clean saved litre bottles to make ice, ziplock bags will work also. Drop these right into the stock pot.

just like the ice paddles at work

tracey

they forgot Dihydrogen Monoxide is also Slippery

[coquus]

Good advice Tracey.

Or you could do what I do and reduce the stock to a more managable quantity and add water as you need it. Some would argue that the overall taste is diminished, but I don't really notice it.

[gruntermen]

All of the instructions I have ever seen regarding the thawing of meat usually forbid thawing things at room temperature. Nonetheless when thawing things like small chickens and game hens I often do the first half of the thawing at room temperature. Is this truly dangerous or ill-advised as long as the wrapped surface of the meat never goes above the temperature it would in the refrigerator (perhaps because it is surrounding a still frozen core) ???

[Pielle]

If you can garantee that the WRAPPED surface of the meat never goes above frigde temp (whith a IR gun thermometer perhaps?) your thawing process should be safe.

[laurelm]

I thaw all the time at room tempertaure. Maybe it is wrong but nothing bad has happened yet...

[Hest88]

I'm not a good person to ask, I suppose. I do all sorts of things that are not recommended. Comes from growing up in a Chinese household without any idea about American food safety practices, I suppose. I've never gotten food poisoning and, yes, I thaw at room temp too.

[orangeman747]

the food code requires that it all be thawed in the refrigerator (unless it is under 4 hrs)... but usually you should be fine (assuming this is not a restaurant)....

[gruntermen]

If you can garantee that the WRAPPED surface of the meat never goes above frigde temp (whith a IR gun thermometer perhaps?) your thawing process should be safe.

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Well an IR gun is a little out of my price range, however my thermometer pressed against the side of the wrapped package says 39 degrees. I figure that if this is inaccurate since it's not actually touching the surface of the meat, the inaccuracy will be on the safe side. The same thermometer says my fridge is 41 degrees.

I thaw all the time at room tempertaure. Maybe it is wrong but nothing bad has happened yet...

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That's been my attitude so far but I'm always a little paranoid that the one time something goes wrong will be the time I have guests over for dinner.

[scubadoo97]

Thawing at room temperature and food safety, I don't think I've ever poisoned anyone

I do it all the time and no one has gotten sick yet. I never seem to be able to plan way ahead to thaw foods in the frige. Seems to take days. One of the great things about my new granite counter tops is how fast they thaw frozen foods. Steak, chicken, fish all thaw very fast on the granite counter.

[jupe]

I just took possession of two choice cryov sealed on-point briskets. I'm going to be dry rubbing and smoking them in the style of the very excellent smoking tutorial here on egullet (I don't have the link on this computer) the weekend of the 21st. My question is this--should I pop them in the freezer for the next six-ish days before I dry rub them, or will they be fine in a cold fridge? Is ten days in the fridge okay for a piece of beast?

Thanks!

[JimmyWu]

Yes... That would be a good wet age.

-Jimmy

[jupe]

thanks!

[Andrew Fenton]

I decided to try a new (for me) method of making chicken stock, using a low oven and a long cooking time. I brought about 15 quarts of chicken, vegetables and water to a boil, then put the pot into a low (225 F) oven, intending to let it cook for 20 hours or so. Everything seemed to be working fine until this morning, when I discovered that my oven has an energy-saving device, and shuts itself off after 12 hours of cooking. That means the oven was off for around 6 hours.

The stock was down to 145 F. According to the FDA, the danger zone for bacteria is below 140 F, but I don't know if the type of food makes makes a difference here. I brought the stock back up to a boil and returned it to the oven. Now I'm trying to decide whether I should finish cooking it, or toss it.

Any food safety mavens have advice here?

Edited February 15, 2009 by Andrew Fenton (log)

[gfweb]

225 should sterilize the oven after 12 hours. The stock only cooled to 145 which is still too hot for most bacteria to grow. The oven stayed closed so no bacteria entered (and pasteur disproved spontaneous generation in the 1800s).

Heat it up again and use it without fear.

[Tri2Cook]

I wouldn't use it at work but, if it passed the sniff test and didn't taste funky, I'd probably still use it for myself at home. Sometimes I'll take small risks on myself, I just don't take risks at other's expense. If it was brought to a boil and cooked at 225 f for 12 hours, it was cooked before the oven shut off. It probably took a few of those hours for that amount of mass to cool down below "food safe" temps in a hot oven. To make a long story longer, nobody can say "no, it won't make you sick" but the odds would be good enough for me to risk it for myself.

[Andrew Fenton]

Yeah, it didn't smell funky: in fact, I tasted a spoonful and it was pretty terrific. I've pretty much decided to eat it. I don't know whether I'll let my daughter (19 months old) eat it, at least until her mom and I have served as guinea pigs...

[gfweb]

Yeah, it didn't smell funky: in fact, I tasted a spoonful and it was pretty terrific.  I've pretty much decided to eat it.  I don't know whether I'll let my daughter (19 months old) eat it, at least until her mom and I have served as guinea pigs...

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Bringing it back to a boil for 15 min should take away all worries.

After all look at the temps used in sous vide.

[Ruth]

I decided to try a new (for me) method of making chicken stock, using a low oven and a long cooking time.  I brought about 15 quarts of chicken, vegetables and water to a boil, then put the pot into a low (225 F) oven, intending to let it cook for 20 hours or so.  Everything seemed to be working fine until this morning, when I discovered that my oven has an energy-saving device, and shuts itself off after 12 hours of cooking.  That means the oven was off for around 6 hours.

The stock was down to 145 F.  According to the FDA, the danger zone for bacteria is below 140 F, but I don't know if the type of food makes makes a difference here.  I brought the stock back up to a boil and returned it to the oven.  Now I'm trying to decide whether I should finish cooking it, or toss it. 

Any food safety mavens have advice here?

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Obviously many new ovens have a similar feature as I had the identical experience a few months ago. Read the instructions that came with your oven. Mine, a Wolf, has something it calls a "sabbath mode" which turns out to be a way of avoiding the automatic turn-off. I can now switch to that mode and the oven will stay on until I choose to turn it off. I make all my stocks over night in the oven now (195°F) and get much more flavor out of the ingredients.

[Andrew Fenton]

Obviously many new ovens have a similar feature as I had the identical experience a few months ago. Read the instructions that came with your oven. Mine, a Wolf, has something it calls a "sabbath mode" which turns out to be a way of avoiding the automatic turn-off. I can now switch to that mode and the oven will stay on until I choose to turn it off.

Yes, I went straight to the manual and saw that the oven has this feature. They don't call it a sabbath mode, however: I guess Kenmore is designed for gentiles.

[Adamsm83]

Just a reminder infants don't have a very strong immune system built up so I might shy away from giving it to your shorties.

[Crouton]

So I put the turkey carcass back in the room temp oven to save counter space after it was carved... It must have been 6-8 hours before I realized my mistake. Would it be ok to go ahead and roast the bones and make turkey stock after it was left out for so long?... or should I just chunk it?

Edited November 29, 2010 by Crouton (log)

[emannths]

I vote to eat it. It was cooked once, so you killed any resident beasties that might have been present due to slaughtering/processing. You're going to be cooking it again (twice!) at high temperature, which will kill any new beasties. Sounds fine to me.

Edited November 29, 2010 by emannths (log)