Q&A -- Knife Maintenance and Sharpening

[Samhill]

I dont see anything wrong with what Chad is suggesting.  Why would buffing out the side of your blade be detrimental?  Perhaps you should describe the process you are imagining.

It's useless. [edit] Decent kitchen knives are already ground right.

Silly.

Edited April 3, 2004 by Samhill (log)

[docsconz]

It would seem to me that buffing and grinding are not exactly the same thing. Please, Samhill, expound upon your apparent expertise. I, for one, am on this thread to be educated.

[winesonoma]

Except on the top of the blade where one's fingers rest. Gotta knock off that hard 90 degree angle or have 30-year calluses. All blades can use a polish now and again.

[Chad]

eGulleteer rbm has done a tutorial on Sharpening with Waterstones in the General Cooking forum. He's done a great job and also covers sharpening single beveled Japanese style knives. Definitely worth a detailed read.

Chad

[misstenacity]

Thank you for this amazing tutorial. Read it a while back, finally got my Spyderco tri-angle thingy this week and sharpened one of my 3 good kitchen knives last night.

I KNOW they need sharpening (its been *gasp* two years since I bought them...), but the difference that a good edge makes still was shocking to me.

Going to do the other 2 tonight, and then move on to some fine-edged kitchen work. Hooray!

Andrea

[hathor]

Thank you Chad! I bought the EdgePro system and my knives are spectacular!

I followed your comments and the instructions that came with the EdgePro, and then finished off the blades with a ceramic steel. Much better results than any time I've taken them to a knife professional. It was a little tricky at first, but practise does make it easier.

I'm almost ready to tackle my pretty Damascus steel knife...

Again thank you for the tutorial.

[jayt90]

For about 5 years I have used Japanese and American whetstones on a variety of knives, but mainly Sabatier carbon, and a stainless cleaver by Sekizo.

I would finish with an old Henckels steel.

It would take a long time to refurnish an edge this way, and I tended to put it off.

I would use the steel, or try various fast fixes, such as ceramic hones or rollers.

Nothing was very satistfactory, and when I went thru the tutorial here, it was more of the same: 1000x stone plus the steel, and go at slowly for 15 minutes.

Recently I revisted the Lee Valley catalog, and purchased some of their newer item, such as the 600-1200x diamond stone, and a diamond steel, 600x.

And now, finally, I can get a quick reshaping of a dull blade, and ginish with their $10 Sabatier steel.

I can even take the folding diamond honer to friends' kitchens and reshape a crude knife if need be.

I feel like I am finally getting somewhere, satisfying my impatience as wel as OCD!

[bleachboy]

I use an F. Dick steel (the flat kind) pretty much every time before I use my knives. I get them sharpened professionally once a year. Frankly, this seems like an ideal plan as I've never suffered from a dull knife.

Anyone care to tell me that I'm doing something wrong?

[jayt90]

I use an F. Dick steel (the flat kind)+

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I haven't seen a flat steel, can you describe it or suggest a website for it?

[winesonoma]

I haven't seen a flat steel, can you describe it or suggest a website for it?

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Dick steels ; http://www.knifemerchant.com/products.asp?...facturerID=3#21

[MobyP]

Surely you don't mean the "Famous Dick" flat steels?

I bought a flat steel, but I find the grain a little harsh. It tends to grind, rather than straighten. But then again, I tend to suffer from SAD (Sharp Anxiety Disorder). so maybe what I really need is a Famous Dick.

Edited October 7, 2004 by MobyP (log)

[Chris Amirault]

I just wanted to say thanks, Chad, for this great tutorial. I bought the EdgePro system and just did my entire set. It's just fantastic -- and I will add well worth the $120. I used to spend $30-40 to sharpen my knives poorly once, so I've already worked off 1/3 of the price and will have paid it off by year's end.

But I have a question for folks. Hathor noted that he, like I, got much better results than any time he's taken them to a knife professional. What's up with that? How come we get better results our first time with this system than "pros" get? I'm asking this sincerely; I'd be interested to hear from people who do this for a living.

Thanks!

[winesonoma]

I just wanted to say thanks, Chad, for this great tutorial. I bought the EdgePro system and just did my entire set. It's just fantastic -- and I will add well worth the $120. I used to spend $30-40 to sharpen my knives poorly once, so I've already worked off 1/3 of the price and will have paid it off by year's end.

But I have a question for folks. Hathor noted that he, like I, got much better results than any time he's taken them to a knife professional. What's up with that? How come we get better results our first time with this system than "pros" get? I'm asking this sincerely; I'd be interested to hear from people who do this for a living.

Thanks!

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How long did one knife take with the Edge-Pro? How much would you have to charge per knife to make money with it? Pro's use grinders which are fast quick and easy. But never as good as the EdgePro. I have one and love it.

[Chris Amirault]

How long did one knife take with the Edge-Pro? How much would you have to charge per knife to make money with it? Pro's use grinders which are fast quick and easy. But never as good as the EdgePro. I have one and love it.

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After getting used to it, the EdgePro takes only about five minutes per knife for me. How long does a grinder take? It also seems that a grinder can very easily take off shiteloads of metal without much effort (or with carelessness) -- at least, that's what it has seemed when I've brought in dull chef's knives and they come back sharp but thick slicing knives....

[D & R Sharpening]

chrisamirault wrote:

But I have a question for folks. Hathor noted that he, like I, got much better results than any time he's taken them to a knife professional. What's up with that? How come we get better results our first time with this system than "pros" get? I'm asking this sincerely; I'd be interested to hear from people who do this for a living.

Hello, this is my first post/reponse here at eGullet. I've been reading these forums for a couple of years now (lurker mode) and I finally took the plunge.

I decided to start with this thread mostly because of the above request.

I'm a professional sharpener who faces these same ideas every day. Try convincing a chef, or hairstylist, to hand over their expensive tools for sharpening when they've been burnt on the last 10 sharpening jobs they got. It's not easy.... trust me. These pro sharpeners (I refer to them as "grinders" rather than sharpeners) have really put a sour taste in so many people's mouths.

Sad, but true, most pro sharpeners ("grinders") are just plain no good. Many don't have the knowledge, the tools, the motivation, the skills, or desire to put quality edges on knife blades. Even when a pro has all the "right stuff" he most likely will still fall short because he's chasing the buck rather than the burr.

For most pros the biggest issue to overcome is time. The idea is to sharpen as many knives in a day that one can handle regardless of the results. I really don't understand this. This type of thinking, at least in the short term. will work fine but what about long term? When trying to attract clients you are not only trying to get today's business but build a relationship for the future. One that both customer and sharpener can enjoy. Wouldn't the best thing be to take your time, use the best equipment available, and sharpen his/her knife as if it were you're own? I think so but so many "grinders" don't.

Anyway, I'm personally an advocate of learning to sharpen your own knives. It's a great thing to know how to do. This is part of the reason why I finally signed up here. I'm hoping to be able to share some of what I know (about sharpening) in the hopes that people here will share what they know about cooking. Sharing is the best part about forums.

I look forward to future conversations and I'm glad to finally be here at eGullet.

--Dave M.--

[snowangel]

I posted this question on a santoku topic elsewhere, but dope that I was, someone had to remind me about this course and Q & A!

Is there a distinct advantage to getting a knife with those dimple things on the blade? Cutting advantage, or does a maintenance hell outweigh the benefits?

[zilla369]

Susan -

The dimples are a distinct advantage in one way - they form air pockets that keep moist ingredients from sticking to the side of your knife as you slice. Example: slicing a wet potato to make fries - you know how the slices just hang onto the side of the blade and you have to stop slicing and unstick before you make the next cut?

As for maintenance, it's not really a big issue, as far as I can tell (although I don't own one and have never sharpened one manually). Hope this helps!

[ghost]

I just got a my first Global knife. It's really nice and the only knives I've had that were nearly as sharp out of the box were my Shuns. The little booklet that came with the knife suggests you don't use a metal steel to hone it, and they recommend their ceramic one. This poses some interesting questions. I use the Shun steel I bought a while ago on all my knives. Aren't the globals and the shuns made out of the same vg-10 steel? If so... can I use my shun metal steel on the globals? Or will I hurt my globals by using the shun metal steel on them? The other thing that I was curious about is that the little booklet recommends a 10 degree angle when honing and sharpening. I've always been told that a 17-22 degree angle is ideal. What do you all suggest? What angle would you suggest for the Shuns as well, because I've always used a 17-19 degree angle when honing with them, do they have a really low angle as well? I was pretty sure of what I was doing, but now I'm confused. Oh the fun!

(Crossposted from Cooking)

[tamiam]

Well, I certainly do not claim any expertise, but the shop that just sharpened my knives, advised me to use the steel on my Global. I trust their expertise as knife makers as well as sellers of wonderful Japanese blades.

[winesonoma]

I just got a my first Global knife.  It's really nice and the only knives I've had that were nearly as sharp out of the box were my Shuns.  The little booklet that came with the knife suggests you don't use a metal steel to hone it, and they recommend their ceramic one.  This poses some interesting questions.  I use the Shun steel I bought a while ago on all my knives.  Aren't the globals and the shuns made out of the same vg-10 steel?  If so... can I use my shun metal steel on the globals? Or will I hurt my globals by using the shun metal steel on them?  The other thing that I was curious about is that the little booklet recommends a 10 degree angle when honing and sharpening.  I've always been told that a 17-22 degree angle is ideal.  What do you all suggest?  What angle would you suggest for the Shuns as well, because I've always used a 17-19 degree angle when honing with them, do they have a really low angle as well?  I was pretty sure of what I was doing, but now I'm confused.  Oh the fun!

(Crossposted from Cooking)

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Global knives have a different angle than other knives. Go with what they tell you.

[IanL]

Global knives have a different angle than other knives. Go with what they tell you.

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The Yoshikin Global website suggests a 15 degree angle sharpening with a whetstone (so 30 deg for double bevels). It may be that specific knives have different directions, but that's what their general sharpening instructuions are.

[Chris Amirault]

Chad, I've got a new question. I just had a marathon EdgePro session with my knives today, including taking a very deep breath and tackling my Wusthof butcher knife, from which I probably took off a few ounces of steel. It's now in great shape, but I fear that my 180 stone needs replacing. It's no longer perfectly straight and flat, but has a concave well in the center, maybe 1/16 of an inch deep.

Makes me wonder when I should get a new one. Thoughts?

[Chad]

Yup, it happens. The coarser stones will dish a lot faster than the finer ones. You probably don't need a new stone, though. I only replace mine when they become really, really thin. Did your EdgePro come with a small bag of sand? I've heard that the new kits don't anymore. I'll have to check my notes to see if it is a particular kind of sand. I don't recall at the moment. The idea, though, is to put a small pile of sand on a flat surface (a garage floor, for example) and, applying even pressure on the stone, rub in circles to flatten out the stone. The sand will pulverize and leave a powdery coat on the bottom of the stone. The distribution of the powder shows you where you still have low spots. The low spots will be darker than the flat areas. I just grind until the surface is uniformly coated.

That should flatten out your stone and get it back into shape. I did this to my coarse & medium coarse stones a couple of times before they needed to be replaced. And, heck, replacement stones are only $14. If you do order new stones, be sure to get either the 8" travel ceramic "steel" or the 10" home model if you don't already have one. They're 1200 grit and are better than just about anything else for keeping edges aligned and honed between sharpening.

Take care,

Chad

[mpr86]

Hi everyone,

I have been reading numerous post’s on the forum and specifically like Chad’s Knife Maintenance and Sharpening post. I did have some questions and concerns and would be delighted if anyone could give me any input regarding a few things…

Let me first start with my background story, and go from there…

I purchased a 3-piece set of Kershaw Shun Chef’s Knives from a local retailer. When I got home, the knives cut amazing, but there was a slight problem aesthetically with the set. I took them back and had them exchanged for the same ones. When I got home, the knives were less than perfect in the sharpness department. I contacted Kershaw Shun and they were very nice to replace the set once again with a new one. Now, I received this final set, but there were some differences in how the knives were sharpened. Originally with the first two sets, the Back Bevel and Primary Edge Bevel of the knives were fully polished as depicted by the image below.

(Higher resolution image available and/or I could take new pictures if needed. In addition, I am referring to the polished portion of the knife in newbie terms)

When I received the final set from Kershaw Shun, the Primary Edge Bevel was not polished, but instead seemed to be much coarser as seen in the photo below.

I called Kershaw Shun asking what the difference was between the two, and they explained that one of their sharpeners opened a set, and sharpened the knives for me to make certain that they are properly sharp. I still was wondering a few things though which is why I decided to ask here. Please pardon the fact that I am not that knowledgeable with sharpening and maintenance and just overly paranoid on some aspects.

Let’s assume both bevels were polished from the factory on my final set as in the first image, and I used the knives for a few months. After they became slightly dull, I decided to either sharpen them myself with the Sypderco product, or send them in for sharpening. After the sharpening, would the knives polished bevel appear the same as the second image, or would it remain polished? Also are there any negative side effects to the way this final set came compared to if they were never sharpened again by a sharpener? I recall speaking to Kershaw Shun regarding sharpening prior to this incident and they explained that these knives need an angle between 16-18 degree’s. I am assuming this is what my final set was sharpened at, but I have read elsewhere that 15 degrees is the general angle at which Japanese knives are sharpened at.

I am mainly concerned that they way they sharpened my knives may have been somewhat out of the ordinary and just wanted to see what you experts might think regarding this. Then again, I may be completely wrong, regardless I enjoy very much using these knives and appreciate the awesome customer service at Kershaw Shun.

If you guys needed any other information, photos or details, let me know as I would be glad to add anything necessary.

Thanks!

My set:

Chefs Set DMS300

- 3.5-in. Paring Knife

- 6-in. Utility Knife

- 8-in. Chef's Knife

(Photo from http://www.CutleryandMore.com)

[Shalmanese]

I'm not an expert but I believe this is a personal choice. Finishing with a slightly rougher stone creates micro-serrations in the blade which makes it "grippier" and better able to cut through fibrous matter like meat. Polishing it very smooth makes it better at slicing things like vegtables cleanly.

It all depends on what your using it for.