Defining Barbecue

[tighe]

I've had this one rolling around in my head for awhile and think maybe we need a different framework for the discussion. So far, this has been an attempt to establish what criteria can be used to define whether something is or is not barbeque, in or out, black or white...

As with many issues in life, maybe its more helpful to think about it as a continuum, with high heat, direct grilling at one end, cool temp, cook it for days barbecuing on the other end, and a universe of methods in between.

[mnebergall]

Barbecue is a lot like obscenity: you know it when you see it.

[jgould]

Trying to define something that's as old and widespread as barbecue is pointless, really.  Regional variations and customs trump linguistic precision every time.  So you may sneer at the NC gas cooked pork and say it's not real barbecue, but the people buying it couldn't care less.

Not caring doesn't equal not wrong.

Difficult to define doesn't equal pointless to define.

Widespread incorrect usage doesn't make that usage correct; it makes it something that should be corrected. Those who labor to create real barbecue deserve to have that term properly utilized by those who care about good food, and especially by those who write and communicate about food.

Without language communication becomes extremely difficult; without precise language precise communication is nearly impossible.

excellent points & totally agree, particularly when attempting to communicate a concept to someone who has never tasted a certain dish or cuisine.

however, as much as i am a stickler for "classic" Q, even i must admit, & through excellent threads such as this, that BBQ can be described by dictionary definitions, but in reality, it exists as a state of mind!

being originally from the South, BBQ meant PORK ( preferably boston butt) being slow-cooked over wood, preferably green hickory or in a converted oil drum cooked by a combination of heat (low) & smoke - "low & slow". for me, sauce is an essential element, but would never argue that point with anyone from no. carolina.

[Mayhaw Man]

BBQ equaling pork is not always true. In Texas BBQ, when used as a stand alone term, almost always means beef (and probably beef brisket) more often than pork. While you will certainly find lots of pork sausage and pork products in Texas, the predominate meat of choice there is brisket.

To me the term " low and slow" would come pretty close to covering all bases (as long as it is over wood). Other than that there are lots and lots of variables that can be applied and the result would still be able to be defined as BBQ. The type of meat has very little to do with what should and should not be called BBQ. Sure there are classic, regional preperations of the dish-but they do vary from region to region and often vary wildly. It is a pretty long stretch from classic Texas brisket to N.C. pulled whole hog and sauced BBQ (both culturally and geographically), but they both have a legitimate right to be called "Real BBQ".

A rotisserie type set up does not always mean that it is not BBQ. I have had many whole hogs cooked on very elaborate homemade rotisserie set ups that absolutely qualified as BBQ. Come to think of it, I have eaten more than one goat cooked on the same kind of setup.

[mnebergall]

In Kansas City, where I grew up, it depends, barbequed ribs meant pork and most everything else was brisket.

[Varmint]

If you haven't already done so, please go back and read this thread from the beginning. I mention this because we weren't trying to discuss the different variations of barbecue, but whether we could come up with a single definition of barbecue that applies to each of its variations.

[Mayhaw Man]

To me the term " low and slow" would come pretty close to covering all bases (as long as it is over wood). Other than that there are lots and lots of variables that can be applied and the result would still be able to be defined as BBQ. The type of meat has very little to do with what should and should not be called BBQ. .

I was trying dammit! I would try harder, but once again-"low and slow" pretty much covers it to MY satisfaction.

[Varmint]

OK OK OK, Brooks!!!! I know you were, but if folks just read the current page, they'd misunderstand this thread. Plus, I'm still trying to figure out how to explain to the majority of North Carolinians who eat gas or electric-cooked barbecue that it ain't barbecue!

[Mayhaw Man]

Plus, I'm still trying to figure out how to explain to the majority of North Carolinians who eat gas or electric-cooked barbecue that it ain't barbecue!

Sometimes calmly explaining in a civilized manner just isn't enough when it involves important matters (such as nuclear politics or BBQ).

I find that by yelling loudly right in someone's face I can usually get my point across pretty well. I have also found that grabbing people by the collar and pulling them really close while I yell at them is effective (politicians call this buttonholing, because you are grabbing them by the buttonhole on the lapel of their jacket).

You could also send them to their room or ground them, but this only works with your own children and I suspect the Little Varmints already know what BBQ is and what it ain't.

[mnebergall]

In Kansas City, where I grew up, it depends, barbequed ribs meant pork and most everything else was brisket.

I was merely agreeing with the previous post that "BBQ equaling pork is not always true." My point was that in some places BBQ might mean pork, in others it might mean beef and in others it can be both.

[jgould]

In Kansas City, where I grew up, it depends, barbequed ribs meant pork and most everything else was brisket.

I was merely agreeing with the previous post that "BBQ equaling pork is not always true." My point was that in some places BBQ might mean pork, in others it might mean beef and in others it can be both.

in the SOUTH, BBQ IS PORK!! brisket is beef, & texans call that, in error, bbq!!

[Jaymes]

In Kansas City, where I grew up, it depends, barbequed ribs meant pork and most everything else was brisket.

I was merely agreeing with the previous post that "BBQ equaling pork is not always true." My point was that in some places BBQ might mean pork, in others it might mean beef and in others it can be both.

Right.

And where I live, if you're at a BBQ joint and you order "ribs," the next question is: "beef or pork?"

[jgould]

And where I live, if you're at a BBQ joint and you order "ribs," the next question is: "beef or pork?"

& out of curiousity, what area of the country do you live?

[Jaymes]

And where I live, if you're at a BBQ joint and you order "ribs," the next question is: "beef or pork?"

& out of curiousity, what area of the country do you live?

Texas.

[fifi]

Then again, Texas barbecue is often cooked at temperatures up near 600 degrees, which presents a problem for the Schlesinger definition.

I actually read this whole thread and am astonished that no one challenged this from FG on page one. Anything other than low and slow cannot be called BBQ in Texas without the perpetrator being run out of town on a rail. While brisket is the odds-on favorite here, we do our share of pork, especially ribs. It is also not unusual for a pork butt to go on the "pit" and get pulled off at about the 12th hour while the brisket basks for another 6 hours or so.

It is also quite common to throw some chicken parts and sausage in there for munchies. A regional favorite sausage called "hot links" are typical. I think you can say that they are BBQ'd but I am kind of on the fence on that one. You don't have the same collagen conversion and fat basting going on that you have with that big hunk of meat or slab of ribs.

I have bemoaned the near disappearance of beef ribs on other threads. I am not talking about short ribs but those honkin' big beef ribs with about an inch of meat still tentatively clinging to the bone. I suspect two reasons for this. One is that they take up too much room in the "pit" to make them commercially viable. Then, unless you have them custom cut, you can't find any beef ribs with any meat left on them.

For some reason, around here the BBQ apparatus is usually referred to as "the pit" and you don't find many actual pits in these parts. The person tending the fire and directing the whole process is referred to as "the pitmaster". Generally speaking, a good pitmaster will not allow the temperature where the meat is lounging to exceed about 225F. So we are back to low, which means, necessarily, slow. How you can have BBQ without wood, smoke, or at least charcoal escapes me.

Any definition has to include the essentials:

Low temperature

Slow cooking - many hours

Wood, smoke, charcoal or some combination

Then you can sort the sub-species by type of meat and cut, region, seasoning method or whatever.

[Mabelline]

Man, what a can of hot worms. You could cook a piece of meat off the machines. I only want to get in this for the hell of it, but what do you guys reckon the vaquero and indio descendents in Arizona, New Mexico, California and Texas would say if you tried to say that a whole spitted beef cooked two days, or a cabrito or porker that came out of a pit in the ground with no fire ever touching the meat, and they've called barbiqoa for 'bout 450-500 years, did not qualify as bbq? That's barbeque to me, as soon as it's on a plate, sauced or not. BBQ is like sex appeal; a highly subjective thing by it's nature. To each their own.

[Jaymes]

Man, what a can of hot worms. You could cook a piece of meat off the machines. I only want to get in this for the hell of it, but what do you guys reckon the vaquero and indio descendents in Arizona, New Mexico, California and Texas would say if you tried to say that a whole spitted beef cooked two days, or a cabrito or porker that came out of a pit in the ground with no fire ever touching the meat, and they've called barbacoa for 'bout 450-500 years, did not qualify as bbq?

No kidding.

And in fact, most "experts" agree (and I know this because they've PM'd me) that we get our words, barbeque, and barbecue, and BBQ FROM the word "barbacoa" which is what the Mexican cowboys (vaqueros) called the meat that for centuries they've roasted over open fires.

But now, we're saying that doesn't "count"?

Fortunately for us all, I'm sure they could not possibly care less.

Edited February 15, 2004 by Jaymes (log)

[Mabelline]

Well, there's perfectly well-intentioned folks all across our great country that take pride in slopping Bullseye on a chicken and turning it black (including my dear little landlady, for whom I had to do this this summer, after I'd smoked a pork roast and a brisket---but she's a star with her interpretation of cooking corn in the shuck) and calling that bbq. And if they're happy with it,so cool. It don't bother me.BBQ is one thing for sure-- an American ritual.

[mnebergall]

If you haven't already done so, please go back and read this thread from the beginning. I mention this because we weren't trying to discuss the different variations of barbecue, but whether we could come up with a single definition of barbecue that applies to each of its variations.

"I mention this because we weren't trying to discuss the different variations of barbecue, but whether we could come up with a single definition of barbecue that applies to each of its variations."

I think the sum and substance of this entire thread demonstrates that there is no "holy grail" single definition of "barbeque" that egullet can agree on. Like I said before, it is like obscenity, you know it when you see (taste) it. Who gives a shit?

[Pan]

It's fun to discuss things even if the result is a long thread with no conclusion. If you don't give a shit, there are plenty of other threads for you to check out.

[Mayhaw Man]

Who gives a shit?

Well, now that you bring it up, I suppose I do.

We "Read, Chew, Discuss". Giving a shit is not a requirement, although it is often the case.

[ExtraMSG]

And in fact, most "experts" agree (and I know this because they've PM'd me) that we get our words, barbeque, and barbecue, and BBQ FROM the word "barbacoa" which is what the Mexican cowboys (vaqueros) called the meat that for centuries they've roasted over open fires.

Well, 30 Helens agree that the etymology of the word is barbacoa, but not from cowboys, but rather the Caribbean:

http://www.wordorigins.org/

Barbecue

This American contribution to international cuisine actually originated in the Caribbean, and the word comes to us via Spanish from its Indian roots. The original sense of barbecue is that of a raised, wooden (later metal) framework used for either sleeping upon or curing meats. The Indians of Guiana called it a babracot and the Haitians a barbacoa. The Spanish evidently acquired the Haitian word and it came into English from the Spanish.

The earliest English cite, used for a sleeping platform, is from 1697. By 1733 the word was being used for an open-air, social gathering featuring the grilling of meat.

Barbecue has one false etymology that is commonly promulgated on the Internet and elsewhere. It is claimed that it comes from the French barbe (beard) and queue (tail); the idea being that an entire pig is roasted, from head, or beard, to tail. This is simply not true.

I think this is the same as the OED's explanation, but I don't have access to the OED.

I just read through the entire thread and I think MatthewB's comments are closest to my heart (or maybe we've just read too many similar books and taken too many similar classes):

5. Perhaps we should consider two usage communities within the context of this thread:

A. Common everyday usage = barbecue, BBQ, or whatever is putting food on a fire or adding a "bbq" sauce, etc.

B. "Expert" usage = something along the lines of "grilling" is like "roasting" & "bbq'ing" is like "braising."

6. All attempts to conflate meaning between lay audiences & experts is doomed to failure.

7. And there will still be disagreement.

Along with A and B, you could split A into both the unreflective and reflective understanding of barbecue. eg, I may use barbecue very loosely, but when reflecting on the word recognize the difference between grilled foods and barbecue.

It seems to me most obvious to say that the average person uses barbecue in relation to flavors and methods that they associate with both a) traditional barbecue, and b) the social act of "barbecuing". However, the average person rarely attempts to be strict about their usage. Thus, barbecue chips, barbecue chicken, only hot dogs and hamburgers at a barbecue, anything with barbecue sauce being called barbecue, etc.

These are all correct uses of the word because they effectively communicate. They may not perfectly communicate due primarily to regional and generational variation in the term, but this really isn't a problem. There are many worse words -- "love", "happiness", "freedom", "spicy". I'm sure the variation increases the farther outside a traditional barbecue community one gets because there is less linguistic history to ground the word and hence a less established usage.

You could probably also split the expert defintions into two branches as well, traditional uses and modern uses, though I'm not sure how much they differ outside of regional variations. But it seems that with all the barbecue books and barbecue contests and barbecue aficionados and barbecue joints that have been around for decades out there, that the way they use the term would comprise the modern usages, whereas it would merely be a historical undertaking to find out the traditional usages. Pinpointing these historical definitions, though, wouldn't say much about the meaning except as it gives an insight into the development of the meaning. These are no longer necessarily meanings of the word because they're historical usages, usages of the past, not present.

To fulfill FG's requirement, here is the "expert" definition I'd offer up: noun, meats cooked low and slow using wood-fired heat. verb, to cook meats low and slow uising wood-fired heat.

I think there are meats that are traditional for barbecue, generally fatty cuts or cuts with lots of connective tissue because these cuts are served from low and slow methods. However, I'd say that anything can be barbecued, it just may not be good that way.

[Mabelline]

It might be that we are agreeing about the same thing. When Jaymes and I were talking indios and vaqueros, the vaqueros were not cowboys in the sense of a typical American cowboy. The Spaniards made real extensive use of the mission natives, and indios from Mexico to do the herding. The later vaquero evolved with a style still very much alive in Mexico today.I have heard that babracot explanation, as well, and the only reservation (no pun intended) I have with the word itself is that it does not sound like indigenous language. I have heard another explanation saying it was another indigenous word for the spit pole itself. So who knows? But it is indeed certain that it has meant exactly what we are talking about for several hundred years. The Spaniards bringing the word up with them is totally logical.

[ExtraMSG]

It makes sense that the word came up with the Spanish. And I've read disputes over the source of the word from babracot. However, from my reading it seems pretty solid that the source is Caribbean and that the Spanish word was first applied there to a style of cooking that was then extended elsewhere, probably as much by slaves as anyone, which would explain the bastardization of barbacoa. But that's just a guess. All the later references, of course, are written and not by slaves.

This has the OED explanation:

http://www.cbbqa.com/history/secondary/Oxf...Dictionary.html

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.cbbqa.com/dove/Essay_2.html

( same as: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~CLASS/MA95/dove/history.html )

[Mabelline]

That is fascinating. And sure enough, the first mention is the one I was trying to think of about the spit pole: "1661: Some are slain, and their flesh forthwith babau'd and eat." I have read one interpretation of that claiming that's supposed to read as a barbe, some obscure pike thing for killing folks.

But here's my favorite, maybe the ancestors of eGullet: "1884:At the Brooklyn barbeque, which Governor Cleveland attended, 5000 kegs of beer were dispensed." You go, gov!

Thanks EMSG. That was entertaining!