Why do waiters make more than cooks?

[TJHarris]

A few people have stated some of the reasons for the disparity, but I'll add another.

I hate to admit it, but it's the truth.  Most cooks are monkeys, and most cooking can be done by monkeys.  I mean honestly, what jobs really take skill in the kitchen?  At age 19 I was a Chef de Partie in a fine dining restaurant, at age 21 I was a first cook, and now at age 22 I'm a pastry chef (after turning down a few exec jobs).  I've worked every station you can in a restaurant, I've been a manager at several, and I've cooked styles of food ranging from classical French, Italian, Ukrainian to Barbeque...  When I was a manager in one kitchen, I trained the 15 year old dishwasher to be a better line cook than the monkeys we got rid of...  I remember days at another restaurant (fine dining), the chef would send every other cook home, and just the two of us would run the kitchen - and we were still putting out food that was above anything else the city has to offer....  The job I'm at right now, I don't have to deal with them, but the hotline staff are almost retarded they're so dumb... 

Cooking is manual labour - anyone can cook good food, you just have to follow procedure.  If a chef can teach well, and push them enough, then any monkey can produce results.  I've come into jobs so drunk I could barely stand up (in my younger, wilder days - I don't drink anymore though), and had the chef come up to me at the end of the night, and tell me great job.  I've walked out of shifts before, come back the next day and kept my job.  I've told chefs to go @#$% themselves, I nearly knocked out one chef with an elbow (he thought it would be funny to go around grabbing cooks' asses, I didn't) - he told me later he was actually out cold on his feet, but recovered quickly - and yet I still kept all my jobs.  A few chefs were even afraid to confront me about anything (showing up hours late for instance), fearful I'd quit, because despite my behaviour and shortcomings, I'd get work done better than any of the monkeys.  I even applied for one job, was told that there wasn't any space for me, but if I really wanted to work there the chef would just find someone to fire to make space for me. 

Recently a few of my old chefs have offered to set me up in restaurants abroad - anywhere I want in Canada, NY, or France, they'll try to find a place.  But honestly, working for next to nothing in top restaurants isn't something I want to do. 

Anyhow, just a little rant - in my experience (most of) the cooking profession is a joke, I'm getting out myself. 

Oh, and do cooks deserve more money?  They still work for their shitty wages, they still come in to work, so as long as they're willing to do that they don't deserve anything more.

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I'm So Sorry, but most of the kitchens that I have worked in or lead have been staffed by highly educated and dedicated culinary professionals. To refer to most cooks as monkeys is beyond insulting to my chosen profession. I am a chef, that means that I lead my kitchen, it does not mean that I am not a cook. I cook everyday in my restaurant. Before I could be called chef, I was educated and apprenticed and taught to be a good cook. I spent years working every station in many kitchens. I am a professional as are the rest of my staff. No Monkeys here!

[leviathan]

I'm somewhat surprised that no one has has acknowledged the real reason for the disparity in pay between BOH and FOH. It's something that everyone in this business is aware of, but generally either denies or ignores. 

I could, for probably 95% of the kitchen positions out there, take an undocumented (read:illegal) worker and plug him into the line while paying him sub-minimum wage.

However, in FOH, where both communication skills  and appearance are critical, this would be impossible.

The pay disparity referenced in this thread is in reality nothing more than none too subtle form of economic racism.

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How big of a role do undocumented workers play in the highly regarded, high end restaurants? I can see how undocumented workers would negativley affect wages at the local lower tier and mid tier restaurants and diners but my argument is that you're seeing the biggest wage disparity at the high end restaurants. Would these high end restaurants really need to turn to undocumented workers and train them to execute the restaurant's dishes? I always thought that there was an oversupply of chefs who were willing to work at these restaurants to gain experience and to learn from the work, where they were willing to get paid less money. These same chefs and cooks could probably make more money if they worked elsewhere.

[CaliPoutine]

I could, for probably 95% of the kitchen positions out there, take an undocumented (read:illegal) worker and plug him into the line while paying him sub-minimum wage.

Not where I live. Not even in McDonald's or other fast food restaurants. When I first started traveling here to visit my spouse, I was shocked that everyone working in fast food places were white.

[Miami Danny]

I could, for probably 95% of the kitchen positions out there, take an undocumented (read:illegal) worker and plug him into the line while paying him sub-minimum wage.

Not where I live. Not even in McDonald's or other fast food restaurants. When I first started traveling here to visit my spouse, I was shocked that everyone working in fast food places were white.

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White does not equal Legal. I live in Miami and there are plenty of illegal white people working in the hospitality industry (both FOH and BOH). It's the kind of industry that's very hospitable to illegals for many obvious reasons. Edited February 26, 2007 by Miami Danny (log)

[Truc]

A few people have stated some of the reasons for the disparity, but I'll add another.

I hate to admit it, but it's the truth.  Most cooks are monkeys, and most cooking can be done by monkeys.  I mean honestly, what jobs really take skill in the kitchen?  At age 19 I was a Chef de Partie in a fine dining restaurant, at age 21 I was a first cook, and now at age 22 I'm a pastry chef (after turning down a few exec jobs).  I've worked every station you can in a restaurant, I've been a manager at several, and I've cooked styles of food ranging from classical French, Italian, Ukrainian to Barbeque...  When I was a manager in one kitchen, I trained the 15 year old dishwasher to be a better line cook than the monkeys we got rid of...  I remember days at another restaurant (fine dining), the chef would send every other cook home, and just the two of us would run the kitchen - and we were still putting out food that was above anything else the city has to offer....  The job I'm at right now, I don't have to deal with them, but the hotline staff are almost retarded they're so dumb... 

Cooking is manual labour - anyone can cook good food, you just have to follow procedure.  If a chef can teach well, and push them enough, then any monkey can produce results.  I've come into jobs so drunk I could barely stand up (in my younger, wilder days - I don't drink anymore though), and had the chef come up to me at the end of the night, and tell me great job.  I've walked out of shifts before, come back the next day and kept my job.  I've told chefs to go @#$% themselves, I nearly knocked out one chef with an elbow (he thought it would be funny to go around grabbing cooks' asses, I didn't) - he told me later he was actually out cold on his feet, but recovered quickly - and yet I still kept all my jobs.  A few chefs were even afraid to confront me about anything (showing up hours late for instance), fearful I'd quit, because despite my behaviour and shortcomings, I'd get work done better than any of the monkeys.  I even applied for one job, was told that there wasn't any space for me, but if I really wanted to work there the chef would just find someone to fire to make space for me. 

Recently a few of my old chefs have offered to set me up in restaurants abroad - anywhere I want in Canada, NY, or France, they'll try to find a place.  But honestly, working for next to nothing in top restaurants isn't something I want to do. 

Anyhow, just a little rant - in my experience (most of) the cooking profession is a joke, I'm getting out myself. 

Oh, and do cooks deserve more money?  They still work for their shitty wages, they still come in to work, so as long as they're willing to do that they don't deserve anything more.

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BRAVO, I applaud you and you're rant. I 100% agree haha but monkey is a little harsh, meh...I love that last statement there.

[K8memphis]

I asked Chef-boy about this disparity in wages when he was here last month. He's a degreed chef currently in a 5 star establishment. He has a hefty school bill and all the accoutrements of a typical 22 year old.

He said he didn't care. God I do. But he said he makes sure that when they go out that the foh buys him a drink and he was happy building his career and he loves to cook and he was fine with all of it.

Viola.

[CaliPoutine]

I could, for probably 95% of the kitchen positions out there, take an undocumented (read:illegal) worker and plug him into the line while paying him sub-minimum wage.

Not where I live. Not even in McDonald's or other fast food restaurants. When I first started traveling here to visit my spouse, I was shocked that everyone working in fast food places were white.

←

White does not equal Legal. I live in Miami and there are plenty of illegal white people working in the hospitality industry (both FOH and BOH). It's the kind of industry that's very hospitable to illegals for many obvious reasons.

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ok, maybe I wasnt clear enough. They are caucasian Canadians.

[srhcb]

Supply vs Demand?

[Allura]

Not even in McDonald's or other fast food restaurants.  When I first started traveling here to visit my spouse, I was shocked that everyone working in fast food places were white.

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Actually, I would guess that McDonald's is going to be scrupulous in hiring only legal workers. There's too much money to be made in fines against them otherwise, especially since so many groups love to hate them.

I'd guess a lot of the corporate chains (all?) are going to use only legal employees. Of course, this is why they use so many prepared, etc foods - they have to cut costs somewhere, and they don't have as much room to cut in salaries.

I get the impression it's not that illegal BoH workers aren't being paid minimum+ wages, but rather that most legal workers could do something else for more money, so there's not as much economic pressure to raise the salaries.

What if the BoH suddenly had to be paid a decent wage? With or without the FoH being paid a salary as well (as opposed to mostly tips). What would it do to the industry? I suspect we'd lose a LOT of restaurants, particularly low to mid level places. Alternately, there might suddenly be a lot more automation, although I'm not sure exactly where that would come in. I could see, say, a fast food place going to automatic ordering, and maybe even more automatic cooking, etc, but I don't know what form that could take, if any, in a sit down restaurant.

[WHT]

Working at TGIMcFunster is closer to assembly line work than cooking. You are not allowed to even taste what you are cooking. So to work at Monday’s the skill set is more about keeping up and proper timing than techniques. All you have to do is follow and learn the steps from the corporate manual.

In small shops or high end places you may have to know a lot more especially at the better positions. I will admit that most people can be trained to perform a task even if they don’t understand what they are doing. Most of us that drive no little about how a car works, you don’t need to in order to drive but most have some understanding of the basics.

In most businesses Sales makes more than Technical and some management. Look at a car dealership for an example. The sales people make way more than the mechanics ever do. If you look at it closely the same lines come into play the way the ground is broken up. Those who perform and can apply there skills earn more and work in better positions with better pay. The FoH/BoH lines even seem to be roughly the same as how you advance and what you do. BoH you start in prep and work up to basic mechanic (oil changes and stuff) than to more challenging but limited repairs like brake jobs and tune-ups then on to full tech and possibly management. FoH the same thing come in as a trainee and advance to sales from there to closer and then to team leader and finely Desk. Think of desk as Mater D’s of sorts as they handle business flow.

Edited February 26, 2007 by WHT (log)

[Busboy]

A few people have stated some of the reasons for the disparity, but I'll add another.

I hate to admit it, but it's the truth.  Most cooks are monkeys, and most cooking can be done by monkeys.  I mean honestly, what jobs really take skill in the kitchen?  At age 19 I was a Chef de Partie in a fine dining restaurant, at age 21 I was a first cook, and now at age 22 I'm a pastry chef (after turning down a few exec jobs).  I've worked every station you can in a restaurant, I've been a manager at several, and I've cooked styles of food ranging from classical French, Italian, Ukrainian to Barbeque...  When I was a manager in one kitchen, I trained the 15 year old dishwasher to be a better line cook than the monkeys we got rid of...  I remember days at another restaurant (fine dining), the chef would send every other cook home, and just the two of us would run the kitchen - and we were still putting out food that was above anything else the city has to offer....  The job I'm at right now, I don't have to deal with them, but the hotline staff are almost retarded they're so dumb... 

Cooking is manual labour - anyone can cook good food, you just have to follow procedure.  If a chef can teach well, and push them enough, then any monkey can produce results.  I've come into jobs so drunk I could barely stand up (in my younger, wilder days - I don't drink anymore though), and had the chef come up to me at the end of the night, and tell me great job.  I've walked out of shifts before, come back the next day and kept my job.  I've told chefs to go @#$% themselves, I nearly knocked out one chef with an elbow (he thought it would be funny to go around grabbing cooks' asses, I didn't) - he told me later he was actually out cold on his feet, but recovered quickly - and yet I still kept all my jobs.  A few chefs were even afraid to confront me about anything (showing up hours late for instance), fearful I'd quit, because despite my behaviour and shortcomings, I'd get work done better than any of the monkeys.  I even applied for one job, was told that there wasn't any space for me, but if I really wanted to work there the chef would just find someone to fire to make space for me. 

Recently a few of my old chefs have offered to set me up in restaurants abroad - anywhere I want in Canada, NY, or France, they'll try to find a place.  But honestly, working for next to nothing in top restaurants isn't something I want to do. 

Anyhow, just a little rant - in my experience (most of) the cooking profession is a joke, I'm getting out myself. 

Oh, and do cooks deserve more money?  They still work for their shitty wages, they still come in to work, so as long as they're willing to do that they don't deserve anything more.

←

I like a good fight and this is an interesting thread, but the trained monkey comments were a little close to the edge. Obviously, I don't think any ethnic slur was intended (or the post would be gone) but given the racial divide that often exists between the front and the back of the house, I'd urge everyone to be careful in selecting the metaphores used to describe what is -- in many restaurants -- an admittedly assembly-line like task. Not (and I say this as a former waiter) that most serving positions are rocket science, either. And, as a general matter of courtesy, let's all think twice about reducing professions that people spend years pursuing to a cheap stereotypes. It's not only unfair and needlessly provocative (I like provacative, but the 4th-grade kind of provactive is needless) but -- speaking strategically -- makes your own argument less persuasive.

Cheers.

[Michaeltheonion]

I read a wonderful book awhile back by Charlie Trotter called ‘Lessons In Service.” Its very gimmicky and hyperbolic in the descriptions of what the serving staff wil do to provide the guest with an un paralleled dinging experience. It also detailed how Trotter was influenced by Author Anne Rand, the novel seems to have some very socialist leanings which have shaped the business practices of Trotters.

In one of the chapters Trotter goes on to say how all the employees there are on salary. The salaries are all based on seniority/experience/ job description. This means that a chef at Trotters might be making more than a waiter there because 1) he is more valuable or 2) he deserves more because hehas put in more time. This is achieved through pooling of the tips. At the end of the shift the waiters hand over their floats and the tips are broken up in the aforementioned way. Trotter does this for a few reasons. First he believed that it was unfair that an untrained waiter could make more than a chef who has been through years of culinary school. Moreover this offers financial stability to the workers at the restaurant, something that is hard to achieve especially in front of the house. This way servers don’t have to worry about having a string of bad nights. It also allows them to know exactly how much money is coming in on pay day. Trotter goes on to say that if the pooled tips that month wont cover the fixed salaries than the restaurant will cover the cost. Another benefit of this is the reduction in jealousy between front and back of the house, everyone knows that they are being payed a wage that is based on an assessment of their skills and credentials. Trotter also believes in cross training. This gives chefs an appreciation for the nuances of serving and visa vie for the wait staff.

I found this all to be quite wonderful and mesh well with my meshed belief in anarchy/capitalism/socialism. I have, since I began cooking, been aware of the wge disparity. I remember sitting around one night after the shift when I was 16 smoking with these old grizzled cooks. Across the way the waiters were smoking a joint of doing cocaine or something, and I remember the cooks bitching about how they made so much more money. The oldest and most despondent of the cooks pointed at a busboy my age and told me I should be in his shoes. Everywhere I have gone this fact has hung over my head. The thing that really irritates me the most I think is that the knowledge base (especially in ym city) of the wait staff is sub par. If you go to future shop and you ask about a TV, the salesperson will be able to go on at length detailing the wonderful specifications of this particular product. In my neck of the woods, if you as where the “Ce Bon,” goats cheese come from you’ll usually get a blank stare.

During the Christmas season I took some assistant shifts (grandiose word for busboy) at my restaurant. The job was very straight forward, polish cutlery, open bottles of wine, pour bottles of wine, fill bread basket, carry food from kitchen to table, clear food. Once again the problem of knowledge came up. A couple of guests asked some of the servers what some of the food items were, these were not hard questions. Things like “What is gnocchi?” “Will this bottle of Valpollecha go with scallops and fennel? (NO!)” The support staff were happy to tell the customers that they I was actually a chef in disguise and that I could actually answer their questions. This gave me a shocking revelation into the ability of the servers. Two hours later I had donned my comfortable cooking jacket and apron, the floor manager came in and handed me a few bills and random change. I had made $30 in tips for almost three hours work. This was in addition to my assistant salary of $8 an hour. It worked out to slightly more than $18 an hour for filling breadbaskets. A few hours later I was preparing beurre monte and the insane amount of vegetable garnishes that were on the menu that night, and making slightly over $13 an hour. The worst part was the looks my fellow cooks gave me.

That experience has gone a long way in my belief that possibly restaurants should do away with the whole concept of job descriptions. I also coordinate an anarchist kitchen where everyone is responsible for everything. One day you could be a delivery driver, the next day you could be learning how to fix a sink, the next day you could be helping to balance the books, or serving the food. The end result is a happier work experience and a more well rounded individual.

But that’s just my opinion.

[Mikeb19]

I like a good fight and this is an interesting thread, but the trained monkey comments were a little close to the edge.  Obviously, I don't think any ethnic slur was intended (or the post would be gone) but given the racial divide that often exists between the front and the back of the house, I'd urge everyone to be careful in selecting the metaphores used to describe what is -- in many restaurants -- an admittedly assembly-line like task. Not (and I say this as a former waiter) that most serving positions are rocket science, either.  And, as a general matter of courtesy, let's all think twice about reducing professions that people spend years pursuing to a cheap stereotypes.  It's not only unfair and needlessly provocative (I like provacative, but the 4th-grade kind of provactive is needless) but -- speaking strategically -- makes your own argument less persuasive. 

Cheers.

←

Strait up, I'm just frustrated with the business, and that night I was frustrated with people I work with. Honestly, most days it feels more like my profession is babysitting than cooking. And to top it off, I'm babysitting cooks who are older than I. Not to mention today I had to change several recipes the executive chef wanted me to make because they were sub-par or didn't work, oh well, it's really my fault, I worked with him previously and still took this job. In a few months it'll be my dessert menu, that'll cause less stress, but until then...

As for ethnic slurs... The best cooks I've ever worked with were mostly foreigners (French, Japanese, Chinese, for the most part, other minorities as well though). White cooks coming from upper class families, going to culinary school then coming into restaurants thinking they're hot shit not really knowing a thing are the problem. Cooks who come from a poorer background generally work harder than the spoiled brats that come up. Also, when I first started out in fine dining restaurants, it was a Japanese cook who took me under his wing, showed me the ropes, gave me advice, etc... You are right though, I should choose my words better - I don't think that way though, I've known so many people from every corner of the globe, every ethnicity imaginable, stuff like racism isn't even an issue where I'm from, but I guess it still is to others...

Obviously there are many cooks who aren't idiots. I've worked with plenty (I apprenticed under a few chefs who had themselves worked for years in 2 and 3 star Michelin restaurants, as well as fellow cooks who had worked in many of the very top restaurants in the world, and even a few who have competed at the top international levels), although they're still by far the minority.

The problem with the internet, it's tough to articulate some points often, and you can't see who you're talking to. Everyone who knows me personally knows that I'm definitely not a racist, and people know that everything I say I can back up. And if you thought I was being harsh, you should have heard my old chef (a Breton) rant about the quality of cooks in North America....

And finally, about cheapening the profession and stereotyping... I've given up ALOT to pursue a culinary career. I had the choice to go to any University in the country, in any field I wanted. I had thousands of dollars in scholarships lined up, and I gave everything up, left home, and started cooking. I worked my way up the hard way, working 80 hour weeks for a pitiful salary, and then coming to work on my days off to put in extra time in the pastry shop or to help make sauces in the morning. You name a task, I've done it.

Anyhow, back on track. Speaking about wages, they're the way they are, because cooks are willing to work for them. As long as cooks keep coming along and taking low paying jobs, the pay will never get any higher. And culinary schools keep the lie going - that cooking is glamourous, and more and more people get into the industry, especially in the higher end restaurants. Tell these kids they'll be a chef in the future if they accept low pay right now, they believe it, and keep the cycle going.

[paulraphael]

However, in FOH, where both communication skills  and appearance are critical, this would be impossible.

The pay disparity referenced in this thread is in reality nothing more than none too subtle form of economic racism.

How is this racism (economic or otherwis)? Isn't it about people having the qualities required for the job? Would a restaurant that hires illegals cooks typically have a problem hiring an illegal waiter IF that person spoke the language well, had the people skills, and looked presentable? Is the person's nationality, skin color, or demographic an issue, or is it more commonly their simple ability to do the job and make the right impression?

If there's prevalent racism in the FOH, I suspect it more often takes the form of french restaurants only hiring french waiters (regardless of who cooks the food), and other similar nationality/image preferences. But is this really racism? It's an interesting conversation. Like a high-end dress shop only hiring skinny, beautiful saleswomen. Of course they do, although many people question the legality of this kind of practice.

Edited February 28, 2007 by paulraphael (log)

[paulraphael]

Speaking about wages, they're the way they are, because cooks are willing to work for them.  As long as cooks keep coming along and taking low paying jobs, the pay will never get any higher.

I wonder would it would take to actually change the system. A union? Rabble rousers turning everything upside down?

I can't see it happening spontaneously. There seem to be so many people lined up to replace to anyone who walks out.

[Brian B]

Just replying to Mikes earlier post and I really feel you should quit cooking now or else head to Europe were you can actually learn something about food and about humility.

To be that angry and disillusioned at 22 is depressing and you have to ask yourself what are you cooking for, go to college do something else with your life. If you go to work every day with that attitude its going to eat you up form the inside and you will be a very bitter person for the experience, you sound like a good cook but you need to step back and ask is it worth it and what do I want.

[K8memphis]

There's a fine fragile line between true genius and pure nutjob. Only time will tell.

Geniuses, in their idealistic passion often fail to recognize the need for the rest of the world. They often fail to realize there is a rest of the world. Sometimes this works out for them or in a perfect world someone will realize their potential and success will follow. Or they figure out how to work the system for themselves, get loans, get backers and do thier own thing.

...As for ethnic slurs...  The best cooks I've ever worked with were mostly foreigners (French, Japanese, Chinese, for the most part, other minorities as well though).  White cooks coming from upper class families, going to culinary school then coming into restaurants thinking they're hot shit not really knowing a thing are the problem.  Cooks who come from a poorer background generally work harder than the spoiled brats that come up.  Also, when I first started out in fine dining restaurants, it was a Japanese cook who took me under his wing, showed me the ropes, gave me advice, etc...  You are right though, I should choose my words better - I don't think that way though, I've known so many people from every corner of the globe, every ethnicity imaginable, stuff like racism isn't even an issue where I'm from, but I guess it still is to others... 

←

In a high school class discussion once, a girl was told that she could never be discriminated against because she was white.

I think that spoiled brats of every ethnicity and color will create problems in the kitchen and the foh, rich or poor. Spoiled brats make the worst sucktomers (sic) too. Not to mention that well educated white kids have the potential to do very well in whatever walk of life with all the other kinds of kids.

However none of that has anything to do with the foh getting more money than boh.

But I totally disagree with this,

Anyhow, back on track.  Speaking about wages, they're the way they are, because cooks are willing to work for them.  As long as cooks keep coming along and taking low paying jobs, the pay will never get any higher.  And culinary schools keep the lie going - that cooking is glamourous, and more and more people get into the industry, especially in the higher end restaurants.  Tell these kids they'll be a chef in the future if they accept low pay right now, they believe it, and keep the cycle going.

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The entrance to the kitchen is the back door. Starting wage is starting wage. How does one demand higher pay in such a hugely competitive job market? So they should not accept the pay that's being offered? Hold their breath till they turn blue and how do they get jobs?

... I worked my way up the hard way, working 80 hour weeks for a pitiful salary, and then coming to work on my days off to put in extra time in the pastry shop or to help make sauces in the morning.  You name a task, I've done it... 

... As long as cooks keep coming along and taking low paying jobs, the pay will never get any higher...

←

You were right the first time, "as long as cooks keep coming along" it's a supply and demand thing as Steve already said. And it appears that this is exactly what you did. Welcome to the club.

Too many cooks spoil the payroll.

Edited March 1, 2007 by K8memphis (log)

[Mikeb19]

Just replying to Mikes earlier post and I really feel you should quit cooking now or else head to Europe were you can actually learn something about food and about humility.

  To be that angry and disillusioned at 22 is depressing and you have to ask yourself what are you cooking for, go to college do something else with your life. If you go to work every day with that attitude its going to eat you up form the inside and you will be a very bitter person for the experience, you sound like a good cook but you need to step back and ask is it worth it and what do I want.

←

I know this all too well. I'm getting the F out of the industry. As much as I'd love to go to Europe and be an apprentice again (if I could afford it I would, but stages in the higher end restaurants don't pay much, if anything), I'm instead going to head to University. Who knows if I'm done cooking, but I've gotta take a break, relax, chill...

[Mikeb19]

You were right the first time, "as long as cooks keep coming along" it's a supply and demand thing as Steve already said. And it appears that this is exactly what you did. Welcome to the club.

Too many cooks spoil the payroll.

←

You're right, I did exactly that. I had no education, no job, no money, I was living in a housing project, either I get a job or I sell drugs and rob like most of my friends did (and many went to jail for it). How I ended up in fine-dining restaurants of all places was sheer luck...

At the time, I really wasn't in the position to negotiate. Nowadays, I'm definitely at the upper-end of the payroll, and working my choice of hours.

[Michaeltheonion]

I think that just treating something like a job can cause disillusionment. Its not just about getting food in the plate with remarkable precision. You have to nurture the products understand the fine lineage you are a part of, and the epic history that cooking encompasses. "When you cook something you can travel back in time." I think that this sort of sentinemtality is a requirement to be truely successful. Not only in a social and financial sense but on a personal level. This is true for any professional.

So Mikeb19, good luck with universiy. Im at the end of a 4 year degree and I find my thoughts drifting to creme brule while im in the middle fo preparing presentatons on some mi*nute aspect of some work of literature.

[prasantrin]

You're right, I did exactly that.  I had no education, no job, no money, I was living in a housing project, either I get a job or I sell drugs and rob like most of my friends did (and many went to jail for it).  How I ended up in fine-dining restaurants of all places was sheer luck... 

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Now I'm confused. I thought you had scholarships to any number of top level universities lined up, but you chose to go into the restaurant business. Was that someone else?

[Busboy]

Just replying to Mikes earlier post and I really feel you should quit cooking now or else head to Europe were you can actually learn something about food and about humility.

  To be that angry and disillusioned at 22 is depressing and you have to ask yourself what are you cooking for, go to college do something else with your life. If you go to work every day with that attitude its going to eat you up form the inside and you will be a very bitter person for the experience, you sound like a good cook but you need to step back and ask is it worth it and what do I want.

←

I know this all too well. I'm getting the F out of the industry. As much as I'd love to go to Europe and be an apprentice again (if I could afford it I would, but stages in the higher end restaurants don't pay much, if anything), I'm instead going to head to University. Who knows if I'm done cooking, but I've gotta take a break, relax, chill...

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Maybe you could work your way through University as a waiter.

[leviathan]

When we talk about supply and demand and how that affects wages for cooks, its important to note that that should also affect FOH as well. While both FOH and cooks need some skillsets, I would still argue that there's less training for FOH and so a lower barrier of entry for FOH which would drive up supply for FOH. For example, the time and education and grades needed to become a doctor limits the number of doctors and therby insures that each doctor will enjoy a certain modicum of financial sucess than if the field was wide open and anybody could become a doctor. Its going to take more time to train a cook and its more difficult to become a cook, and yet there's oversupply of cooks than FOH. The interesting thing is that its only recently that the profession of cooking has become respectable; it used to mainly blue collar profession. And, with this shift, you'll probably going to see more people go into that field, who would have previously written it off as below them, and that will even drive wages even further down.

White cooks coming from upper class families, going to culinary school then coming into restaurants thinking they're hot shit not really knowing a thing are the problem.  Cooks who come from a poorer background generally work harder than the spoiled brats that come up. 

Ultimately, I think that might be a good thing for the profession if you get more cooks and chefs from the middle and upper classes. Sure, there's going to be a bunch of snot nosed brats but those brats will probably end up leaving the field once they understand how difficult it is. The cream rises, and you'll be left with a lot of talented chefs who would have previously overlooked this profession because they viewed it as blue collar. And, by coming from a middle class family, they could probably afford to travel and eat at top tier restaurants.