Thomas Keller's "Per Se" Pre-Opening Discussion

[BigboyDan]

In Michael Ruhlman's "The Soul of a Chef", Viking Press, Ruhlman quotes Keller saying, "that he hopes The French Laundry will go on without him after he leaves." This was written in 1999 and published in 2000.

I just talked to a FL supplier, D'Artagnan Foods, and the two people there that I talked to (this is their speculation) felt that if Keller's efforts in NY were successful, he would stay in the east and sell FL.

Hmmmmn.

Charlie Trotter has a disadvantage that Keller doesn't have concerning his restaurant, it's named Charlie Trotter. And, it would be difficult to sell or close his restaurant (and go live in Cataluna) without losing the goodwill gained under his personal name. Keller should be able to get a decent price for FL if he sells out, especially if Per Se succeeds. I would think that the backers of Per Se would want Keller's full attention...

[Fat Guy]

Is there any precedent for a big-name chef selling a restaurant under these circumstances?

Why wouldn't he simply maintain both operations? Isn't that what all the mega-international-superstar chefs do?

[Jinmyo]

I don't have Soul of a Chef available to me right now but as I remember it Keller said that he hopes TFL will go on without him, that his contribution is meshed with that of others and TFL should be able to stand on its own. I did not have the impression he plans on leaving from this or from anything more recent.

This is part of what I was referring to by my sense that Keller is working on a lineage, a transmission of style larger than himself.

[BigboyDan]

Fat Guy,

Robuchon sold Jamin at three stars; scared the Hell outta' everybody.

Jinmyo,

"...a transmission of style larger than himself." Gonna' have to explain that comment. One goes to FL for no other reason than to eat Keller's food.

[Jinmyo]

Jinmyo,

"...a transmission of style larger than himself." Gonna' have to explain that comment. One goes to FL for no other reason than to eat Keller's food.

That's the diner's side. I'm talking about from the kitchen's side.

Also, I hear that Keller is in the process of negotiating with the local powers in Yountville to build an inn across from the FL.

Doesn't sound as if he has any plans to leave.

[Fat Guy]

Fat Guy,

Robuchon sold Jamin at three stars; scared the Hell outta' everybody.

I had forgotten about that. But is it really a comparable situation?

[BigboyDan]

About Robuchon: we all though that if he wanted out of his three star (which he owned) where did that leave the rest of us? Did his action portend a "downsizing" of French haute cuisine? In France the man is called the "chef of the century" and is considered a national treasure. He wasn't sick. Too old? No. Nobody leaves a three that he owns. Even Ducasse doesn't own the Louis XV. Eventually Joel opened his Atelier, which signaled (just by naming it Atelier at least) a shift in his professional attitude. By doing so he made a complete break from Jamin and the three starred level; an important point in the French gastronomic mind-set.

Philippe Legendre went to Le Cinq from Taillevent to see if he could gain a three. Alain Chapel opened a restaurant in Tokyo and sent Jousse there to work it, but Chapel considered himself a "consultant". Rostang, Gagnaire, Savoy, Vigato, Ramsey all opened bistro type places sure, but mainly to do something different cuisine-wise, make money, and offer the public greater access to their respective talents - but none are located three-thousand miles away.

Keller did open Bouchon up the street. What does he really want in New York? Maybe he wants to work at a menu different than that of FL. Big-time money? Big Apple glamour? The point is: if Keller is not in the FL kitchen two-hundred days a year, it's not the same place. Which is fine. At least he didn't go to Las Vegas...

[robert brown]

The Chapel restaurant is in Kobe, but your post is informed and interesting. It's tough for those on the outside to know if Robuchon, at age 51, was tired (as I think he gave as the reason for closing the restaurant) or was motivated by some personal reason. I believe the restaurant closed in the fall of 1995, which was a rough period economically. I think he may have realized that to continue at the same level, he would have had to make financial sacrifice. It used to be that some chefs were after big money and some weren't. Chapel never was. He never upgraded or added hotel rooms, although I know he talked about it shortly before he died as something that he was planning. Georges Blanc was always expanding in Vonnas, looking to make more money. AS a result I believe his cuisine suffered, although it may because he was a cut below and never held in the same high esteem by chefs and gourmands as Chapel, Robuchon, Guerard, Girardet, the Troisgros Brothers and Gagnaire among a few others.

I have no feeling or hunch if Keller is doing the right thing. As long as he can keep living off the three or four dishes that he has been, he could do okay since he will be reaching a new audience in New York. I hope he pulls it off and creates something new and good at the top, something New York hasn't had for a while.

[Schneier]

Also, I hear that Keller is in the process of negotiating with the local powers in Yountville to build an inn across from the FL.

I've heard about the inn.

He might have trouble with the locals. There's an entire cottage industry of "B&Bs for people eating at the French Laundry" in the neighborhood.

[BigboyDan]

robert brown,

Yes, Kobe. La Tour d'Argent is in Tokyo. And I agree on your view of Blanc.

Nothing wrong with "getting tired" or just plain burning out - it's just that Robuchon didn't want to go back or continue in a three. The mid-nineties were considered the low-point for no-expense-spared french gastronomy, its survival as an institutional part of France was questioned; answer, still not known for sure, except that there are more starred restaurants in France than ever. Now, about the decline in French farmers...

Keller may have hit his "wall" at FL, re:

'... living off of the three or four dishes that he has been."

New York does seem to need a wake-up at the top. If Keller (and Kunz?) can do it... go, go, go!

[chefg]

I just talked to a FL supplier, D'Artagnan Foods, and the two people there that I talked to (this is their speculation) felt that if Keller's efforts in NY were successful, he would stay in the east and sell FL.

Silliness.

[chefg]

The point is: if Keller is not in the FL kitchen two-hundred days a year, it's not the same place. Which is fine.  At least he didn't go to Las Vegas...

Isn't it? The chef de cuisine has been there for well over 7 years. 7 years!

It is his job to know the man better than the man himself, and believe me, Thomas Keller makes sure everyone does their job.

When I was a chef de partie there, this would have been in '97, a well known food writer came into the kitchen after a meal. As he and Chef had a conversation we all tuned in as we cleaned. This was before TFL even had a Sous Chef. During the dialog it came up the Chef was to be away for a period of time. The writer looked at chef and asked.."who is going to cook while you are gone?" Chef looked at him seriously and said..."the same people that cook when I am here." To a group of young chefs, that would bleed for the man, it was a powerful statement. It made all of us descretely smile while we scrubbed the flat-tops.

Bouchon Vegas opens in a few months.

[BigboyDan]

Didn't know about Bouchon Vegas. I guess that you have answered our questions concerning Keller's intents.

edit for typo

Edited October 20, 2003 by BigboyDan (log)

[Jinmyo]

Chef looked at him seriously and said..."the same people that cook when I am here."  To a group of young chefs, that would bleed for the man, it was a powerful statement. It made all of us descretely smile while we scrubbed the flat-tops.

I admire the respect that Keller has for his staff. And so I still see Per Se as a venue for broadening and deepening the oportunities for them. (As well as a way to cash in.)

[inventolux]

Trotter wont do it.

Is that the name of Kellers new place?

Now that's an inspired suggestion.

Bruce

CT feels NYC is headed toward 100% unionization and doesnt want to be there when it happens. I can understand that. I think the AOLTW is an interesting idea. Hopefully we will see more fortune 500 companies backing small independent restaurants without the looming threat of corporate suffocation. I would love to see a restaurant with the clout and creativity of EL Bulli (6 months off) with the elegance and seemingly unlimited resources of AD Monaco somewhere in the US.

I think of all the chefs involved TK has the greatest philosophy. It makes a huge statement to close your primary restaurant to open another. I dont know of any chefs that have that level of commitment to high end gastronomy, and I am positive he will lead the roster of restaurants (no matter who decides to join in) from the start and through the entire project.

[jeunefilleparis]

New York’s 4 Star restaurants largely make money on a small clientele: bankers, consultants, tourists, and business travelers.

At the prices they charge, aren't those in the main (plus doctors, etc.) the only people who can afford to go more than once in a blue moon?

It depends. If you're childless, carless, debt-free, employed full-time with benefits, and living economically in most other respects (e.g., you have several roommates in an "emerging neighborhood" and therefore spend <$500 per month on housing and utilities), you can have several hundred dollars per month to spend on a hobby even if your annual income is $35,000 (which is roughly the average per capita income in New York City). That means editorial assistants at publishing companies, young public-school teachers, and others earning at that level can, if they are so motivated, eat pretty well assuming fine-dining is their one major non-essential expenditure. If you can find a compatible partner -- in other words someone who is willing to drink tap-water, not order add-on items like coffee, and take advantage of advantageous lunchtime and prix-fixe deals -- you can dine out at the three- and four-star level 48 times per year (aka almost every week) on a budget of approximately $500 per month (aka $6,000 per year). I correspond regularly with several people in this situation -- it is a definite subculture.

steven,

I would definately have to agree, I make well under the amount that you mentioned but i am also childless, carless, debt free ect. and if i know that there is a restaurant that i want to try then i will organize my money accordingly! and with Egullet, I always can find someone to dine with me:) like Bond GIrl:)))

[Fat Guy]

I think the other thing that's relevant on this tangent -- and if we go any farther let's have a new thread and recap all this to get it started -- is that there's a huge amount of redistribution of wealth that can't really be tracked but that benefits young people and women in particular. If you're a downwardly mobile Gen-Xer, chances are your doctor/lawyer/banker Baby Boomer parents take you out to dinner at upscale restaurants on occasion -- especially if you live in a place like New York where that's such a part of the culture. Women get taken out all the time by men, and sometimes vice-versa too, especially when there's a large wealth gap between the two people involved in a dating situation. I mean, I'm sure if you walk into the dining room of -- ugh -- Per Se on any given night you'll find that at most of the tables there's one person paying. Who knows if the other one, three, five, or seven people have any money? The reality is that if you're young and attractive and you run with a certain crowd and being out there is a priority for you, you can eat and drink for free (as in paid for by someone else at the table) at the best places all the time.

[jeunefilleparis]

I think the other thing that's relevant on this tangent -- and if we go any farther let's have a new thread and recap all this to get it started -- is that there's a huge amount of redistribution of wealth that can't really be tracked but that benefits young people and women in particular. If you're a downwardly mobile Gen-Xer, chances are your doctor/lawyer/banker Baby Boomer parents take you out to dinner at upscale restaurants on occasion -- especially if you live in a place like New York where that's such a part of the culture. Women get taken out all the time by men, and sometimes vice-versa too, especially when there's a large wealth gap between the two people involved in a dating situation. I mean, I'm sure if you walk into the dining room of -- ugh -- Per Se on any given night you'll find that at most of the tables there's one person paying. Who knows if the other one, three, five, or seven people have any money? The reality is that if you're young and attractive and you run with a certain crowd and being out there is a priority for you, you can eat and drink for free (as in paid for by someone else at the table) at the best places all the time.

steven,

I would agree with most most of that. When my parents visit from Philly, I usually get in a least one great meal. However, most of my other expensive meals are paid for by me generally. But I do wonder, sometimes when I go to the 3 star restaurants and there are considerably young people dining how they got the money or if they are being treated, most people that I know, in the their early mid 20's wouldnt spend $100 and upwards on a meal, but food is something I live for, so I spend it,, I dont even want to think about retirement yet,,,,,,,,,,

[rstarobi]

I think the other thing that's relevant on this tangent -- and if we go any farther let's have a new thread and recap all this to get it started -- is that there's a huge amount of redistribution of wealth that can't really be tracked but that benefits young people and women in particular. If you're a downwardly mobile Gen-Xer, chances are your doctor/lawyer/banker Baby Boomer parents take you out to dinner at upscale restaurants on occasion -- especially if you live in a place like New York where that's such a part of the culture. Women get taken out all the time by men, and sometimes vice-versa too, especially when there's a large wealth gap between the two people involved in a dating situation. I mean, I'm sure if you walk into the dining room of -- ugh -- Per Se on any given night you'll find that at most of the tables there's one person paying. Who knows if the other one, three, five, or seven people have any money? The reality is that if you're young and attractive and you run with a certain crowd and being out there is a priority for you, you can eat and drink for free (as in paid for by someone else at the table) at the best places all the time.

steven,

I would agree with most most of that. When my parents visit from Philly, I usually get in a least one great meal. However, most of my other expensive meals are paid for by me generally. But I do wonder, sometimes when I go to the 3 star restaurants and there are considerably young people dining how they got the money or if they are being treated, most people that I know, in the their early mid 20's wouldnt spend $100 and upwards on a meal, but food is something I live for, so I spend it,, I dont even want to think about retirement yet,,,,,,,,,,

I know I'm continuing to add to the off-topic-edness of this thread, but as another young (early-mid 20's) poster, I have to agree with FG that careful budgeting, and an unholy obsession with eating can lead to a few pricey meals spread out through the year. Basically, I have a choice between spending my limited discretionary income on a lot of inexpensive meals, or saving for the rare big one. I'm about 50/50 at this point, so I'll have a really big deal meal about once every month and a half or so. Of course, "big deal" to me may be very different from "big deal" to someone in a more healthy financial situation.

[mikeczyz]

I think the other thing that's relevant on this tangent -- and if we go any farther let's have a new thread and recap all this to get it started -- is that there's a huge amount of redistribution of wealth that can't really be tracked but that benefits young people and women in particular. If you're a downwardly mobile Gen-Xer, chances are your doctor/lawyer/banker Baby Boomer parents take you out to dinner at upscale restaurants on occasion -- especially if you live in a place like New York where that's such a part of the culture. Women get taken out all the time by men, and sometimes vice-versa too, especially when there's a large wealth gap between the two people involved in a dating situation. I mean, I'm sure if you walk into the dining room of -- ugh -- Per Se on any given night you'll find that at most of the tables there's one person paying. Who knows if the other one, three, five, or seven people have any money? The reality is that if you're young and attractive and you run with a certain crowd and being out there is a priority for you, you can eat and drink for free (as in paid for by someone else at the table) at the best places all the time.

steven,

I would agree with most most of that. When my parents visit from Philly, I usually get in a least one great meal. However, most of my other expensive meals are paid for by me generally. But I do wonder, sometimes when I go to the 3 star restaurants and there are considerably young people dining how they got the money or if they are being treated, most people that I know, in the their early mid 20's wouldnt spend $100 and upwards on a meal, but food is something I live for, so I spend it,, I dont even want to think about retirement yet,,,,,,,,,,

I know I'm continuing to add to the off-topic-edness of this thread, but as another young (early-mid 20's) poster, I have to agree with FG that careful budgeting, and an unholy obsession with eating can lead to a few pricey meals spread out through the year. Basically, I have a choice between spending my limited discretionary income on a lot of inexpensive meals, or saving for the rare big one. I'm about 50/50 at this point, so I'll have a really big deal meal about once every month and a half or so. Of course, "big deal" to me may be very different from "big deal" to someone in a more healthy financial situation.

As yet another early 20's poster, saving up and not eating at a handful of three stars is the only way i can afford to eat at some of these four star restaurants. one downside tho is that saving up for a big meal heightens the anticipation, but can lead to colossal disappointment if the meal sucks.

mike

[herbacidal]

but i think a key point in that respect, to all 3 of you, is that you're all into food. much of FG's post that you're responding to I took as being about young hipsters that are less into food, and more into the scenes and partying, etc.

not that you are not into scenes and partying, but the additional draw of the food has more value to you, such that you are willing to save up for these precious meals.

[mikeczyz]

but i think a key point in that respect, to all 3 of you, is that you're all into food.  much of FG's post that you're responding to I took as being about young hipsters that are less into food, and more into the scenes and partying, etc. 

not that you are not into scenes and partying, but the additional draw of the food has more value to you, such that you are willing to save up for these precious meals.

Good point. you're right. i never go out to the bars after work cause i'd rather save my money for restaurants. next time people ask me how i can afford to eat out all the time, i'll have an answer for them.

mike

[lizard]

Reports say Keller is setting up "Video-Conferencing" facilities in the new restaurant & in the original FL location, so he and his NYC chef can confer at any time. He will return to Yountville in the Spring after opening Per Se & Bouchon in Las Vegas. Do you think this will work, or is he spreading himself too thin?

Edited October 27, 2003 by lizard (log)

[eatpie]

I think the ressie line for Per Se just opened. Anyone have the #?

[Fat Guy]

212.823.9335