Thomas Keller's "Per Se" Pre-Opening Discussion

[R Washburn]

Ducasse was hanged, drawn and quartered because he tried to give NYC a level of luxury it hadn’t seen both on and off the plate, and New Yorkers, ultimately provincial, don’t take well to folks who surprise or, god forbid, instruct.

The problem was it was such an easy target for the critics. I wonder what would have happened if they had opened with a $100 menu and jacked up the price after the initial rounds of reviews. Maybe they would have ultimately lost less money and emerged with a more positive reputation. It is hard to complain about too much luxury for a bargain price.

[Fat Guy]

It is hard to complain about too much luxury for a bargain price.

Let me share with you Rule #1 of complaining:

You can complain about anything.

[BigboyDan]

"vehemence", too funny.

Business is business. I like Ducasse, he's a benefit to all who eat. My comment was intended to relate what Keller is doing to what Ducasse did. Is Keller bored with his life in Napa? Hit the creative wall? Cashing in?

By the way, I've worked with Ducasse when we were both much younger. He received two stars at the age of twenty-eight as the chef of La Terrasse. He is very good.

Edited October 16, 2003 by BigboyDan (log)

[Fat Guy]

He is very good.

If you mean "very good" in the sense of "Babe Ruth was very good at baseball" then I agree.

[BigboyDan]

Perfectly stated Fat Guy. Ducasse's actions are under greater scrutiny in France than anywhere else, especially with the ringing of hands concerning "the state of French cuisine". Ruth brought in the era of the homerun, and devalued the style of baseball that preceeded it; and he helped create the glamour of the "superstar". Ducasse, it is rumored, thinks that it all was too easy. Or, others have stated, that Ducasse thought that he HAD to go to Paris and cook with cream to be validated.

One can wonder, really, if Keller knows exactly what he's doing? I have to assume that he does.

edited for typo.

Edited October 16, 2003 by BigboyDan (log)

[bloviatrix]

One can wonder, really, if Keller knows exactly what he's doing? I have to assume that he does.

People seem to forget that Keller has already had one restaurant in NYC. Rakel opened in early '87 and received 2 stars from the NY Times. After the stock market crash in October '87 the economy softened for restaurants of this type and rather than downscale the concept, Keller walked. In Ruhlman's The Soul of a Chef, Keller points to the economic climate as the primary reason for Rakel's failure. Considering that NY's economy is currently on shakey ground, one would have to assume that Keller is savvy enough not repeat his prior mistakes.

[eliotmorgan]

Is Keller bored with his life in Napa?  Hit the creative wall? Cashing in?

Bored? Irrelevant. Hit a creative wall? Eat there and find out, instead of speculating. Cashing in? Jeezus. You said business was business, so what’s the point of that question?

You also stated you worked with him 18 years ago, so what gives with the cheezy foodie questions?

[Fat Guy]

One can wonder, really, if Keller knows exactly what he's doing? I have to assume that he does.

People seem to forget that Keller has already had one restaurant in NYC. Rakel opened in early '87 and received 2 stars from the NY Times. After the stock market crash in October '87 the economy softened for restaurants of this type and rather than downscale the concept, Keller walked. In Ruhlman's The Soul of a Chef, Keller points to the economic climate as the primary reason for Rakel's failure. Considering that NY's economy is currently on shakey ground, one would have to assume that Keller is savvy enough not repeat his prior mistakes.

I think plenty of people remember, and I think I recommended here or somewhere else that Keller should position this as a "homecoming" if he knows what's good for him. I doubt the macroeconomic issues are particularly relevant to this effort, though. French Laundry is doing just fine during the recession, so if he can replicate that he will be operating above the standard economic forces. It's a small restaurant with a high profile -- people make money in a recession; just not as many people and sometimes not as much money. And a huge construction effort like the Time Warner Center may very well be a leading indicator of where the city's economy is going to be headed very shortly -- not that I can really predict. If I could, I'd run a hedge fund not a food discussion site.

[BigboyDan]

eliotmorgan,

You haven't made a point yet. Or if you have, you and I are talking at cross purposes. If what Keller is doing at FL is perfect then why do anything else?

I met Ducasse in the Summer of 1978 when I worked three months at Alain Chapel, he was obsessed with food, along with everyone else in the country. The food is what matters to a cook, nothing else. Some French chefs are willing to work forty years straight because of it. I see ADNY as business only. Will Per Se propel Keller to the next level? I hope that HE thinks so.

[Fat Guy]

I'm not having any trouble understanding any of several possible motives -- and I assume it's a combination: Keller may simply want to bring excellence to a wider audience (an admirable goal, I think), he may want to secure his retirement by increasing his income and diversifying his investments (a totally understandable goal), he may feel that New York is "the place to be," or he may just think it will be fun to do a restaurant here. I'm sure at some point he will answer those questions in the press, and I'll be interested to see what he has to say.

[bilrus]

You could add to that that he wants to make it in New York. A great number of very successful people have enough pride that failure get under their skin.

This is especially true of perfectionists - which it seems applies to Keller.

Maybe his failure to succeed in New York in the '80s is a source of wounded pride for him.

Isn't it interesting that we can do these in depth psychological analyses of someone most of us have never met and many of us have never even eaten his food?

[eliotmorgan]

If what Keller is doing at FL is perfect then why do anything else?

Some French chefs are willing to work forty years straight because of it. I see ADNY as business only. Will Per Se propel Keller to the next level? I hope that HE thinks so.

"eliotmorgan,

You haven't made a point yet. Or if you have..."

Which is it?

"The food is what matters to a cook, nothing else."

Exactly the point I made. I'm glad we agree.

"I see ADNY as business only."

Let the team there prove otherwise. We love to cook; I'm not there anymore but I know they'll do whatever it takes to win you over. Call; note your skepticism; and let Chef Didier and the team prove you wrong. Go to Mix and let Chef Doug prove you wrong. Can you imagine getting to work at 7am and working until your 3 hour break at 2pm, and then using it to catch a train uptown to Kitchen Arts and Letters to look at cookbooks? With the exception of half hour lunch and dinner breaks this was is the enviornment. Back at 5pm to work to 11:30. No day guys; no evening guys. One team. The media has not served you well on this point, and it stinks. I'm not angry and I'm not seeking a flame war here, but Ducasse is excellent and a lot of good cooks from Mr. Ducasse on down to the comies have been ill served by the media. They don't serve Lunch anymore, but at $65 it was the best deal in New York.

"Will Per Se propel Keller to the next level? I hope that HE thinks so."

Here we agree. I hope he does too.

[BigboyDan]

eliotmorgan,

Ducasse has as much talet as anyone. I have eaten at ADPA in Paris and loved it. I'm not denegrating the ADNY kitchen at all. I'm just asking that Ducasse, "get back in the kitchen once in a while and hold off on becoming an empire".

Edited October 16, 2003 by BigboyDan (log)

[eliotmorgan]

eliotmorgan,

Ducasse has as much talet as anyone. I have eaten at ADPA in Paris and loved it. I'm not denegrating the ADNY kitchen at all. I'm just asking that Ducasse, "get back in the kitchen once in a while and hold off on becoming an empire".  

Edited October 17, 2003 by eliotmorgan (log)

[Jinmyo]

He did say that his current sous chef, Jonathan Benno, who's been working here for the past 18 months, will be leaving Yountville to take on the job of chef de cuisine at Per Se in New York. Also leaving to open the New York restaurant will be French Laundry pastry chef Sebastian Rouxel. A former New York City resident, Rouxel will stay on as Per Se's pastry chef, Keller added.

You know, I have a sense that Keller really wants to create a lineage of cooking. I think part of his reasons for opening in NY is to expand opportunities for his staff.

[Pan]

New York’s 4 Star restaurants largely make money on a small clientele: bankers, consultants, tourists, and business travelers.

At the prices they charge, aren't those in the main (plus doctors, etc.) the only people who can afford to go more than once in a blue moon?

[herbacidal]

New York’s 4 Star restaurants largely make money on a small clientele: bankers, consultants, tourists, and business travelers.

At the prices they charge, aren't those in the main (plus doctors, etc.) the only people who can afford to go more than once in a blue moon?

pretty much.

but think of it this way: 90% of the kitchen staff, and probably a decent percentage of the floor staff as well, can't afford to eat there even once in a blue moon.

[Fat Guy]

New York’s 4 Star restaurants largely make money on a small clientele: bankers, consultants, tourists, and business travelers.

At the prices they charge, aren't those in the main (plus doctors, etc.) the only people who can afford to go more than once in a blue moon?

It depends. If you're childless, carless, debt-free, employed full-time with benefits, and living economically in most other respects (e.g., you have several roommates in an "emerging neighborhood" and therefore spend <$500 per month on housing and utilities), you can have several hundred dollars per month to spend on a hobby even if your annual income is $35,000 (which is roughly the average per capita income in New York City). That means editorial assistants at publishing companies, young public-school teachers, and others earning at that level can, if they are so motivated, eat pretty well assuming fine-dining is their one major non-essential expenditure. If you can find a compatible partner -- in other words someone who is willing to drink tap-water, not order add-on items like coffee, and take advantage of advantageous lunchtime and prix-fixe deals -- you can dine out at the three- and four-star level 48 times per year (aka almost every week) on a budget of approximately $500 per month (aka $6,000 per year). I correspond regularly with several people in this situation -- it is a definite subculture.

[Jerry_A]

I correspond regularly with several people in this situation -- it is a definite subculture.

Let me assure the subculture is alive and well in Canada too!

[forkAndPen]

It depends. If you're childless, carless, debt-free, employed full-time with benefits, and living economically in most other respects

I knew i liked being "childless, carless, debt-free, employed full-time with benefits" for a reason. I completlly agree. Its all a matter of choices. I don't have a car payment or a very high rent. I might not be saving up enough but you better bet i will try to go to at least a few excellent (and sometimes expensive) restaurants ever two weeks

[R Washburn]

I see ADNY as business only.

Does ADNY make money? If it does it would make 2x as much if it offered two seatings, like practically every other high end restaurant. I would think that Mix would have more potential for profit.

[Fat Guy]

I see ADNY as business only.

Does ADNY make money?

That can be a fairly complex question where interlocking ownership is involved, especially as part of a hotel. Lespinasse never made money per se -- on the balance sheet it lost a million or two a year -- but the St. Regis saw it as a loss leader that brought prestige and therefore profitability (as in the ability to charge more for rooms and attract an upscale clientele) to the overall hotel operation (as well as to the chain). Thus they felt (until they abandoned the project) that it was worth doing more, spending more, acquiring more wine, etc., in order to maintain a four-star operation -- that was considered more important than turning the dining room into a one-star profit-center (I think you'll find that the most profitable restaurants tend to be in the zero- to two-star category). Likewise, Gray Kunz and Christian Delouvrier each made plenty of money as Lespinasse's chefs.

For all I know ADNY may be a net balance-sheet loss to the Essex House (they might be able to make more money on the space by leasing it to a Duane Reade drug store) but Ducasse himself may make decent money on it and the Essex House may consider it a worthwhile expense. I don't know that to be the case, but it's entirely possible.

[chefg]

Lespinasse never made money per se --

Interesting choice of words FG.

[Mark Sommelier]

Lespinasse never made money per se --

Interesting choice of words FG.

Yeah, I noticed that too.

[Fat Guy]

Thanks, Percy.