Beef

torakris · May 20, 2003

It is my humble opinion, but i think that the koreans have perfected the art of cooking (or not cooking!) beef.

They have of course given us yuke, but what are some of your favorite Korean beef dishes?

For those unfamiliar with yuke:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?act=ST...t=18921&hl=yuke

MatthewB · May 20, 2003

My abilities at the Korean language are non-existent so I won't even try.

BBQ thin-sliced beef

Grilled beef short ribs

tissue · May 21, 2003

I like grilled beef tongue as well as galbi.

I don't like bulgogi though...

torakris · May 21, 2003

grilled beef tongue...........yummmm! :biggrin:

sprinkled with salt and a squeeze of lemon........ :wub:

Jinmyo · May 22, 2003

tissue, whyfor not like bulgogi? It's grilled strip steak. What's not to like?

tissue · May 22, 2003

Because the places here in LA that serve bulgogi, I don't know. Maybe they aren't doing it right. They treat it like a stepchild of bbq. It comes out all stringy and stir fried like yoshinoya with sauce. Whereas all the restaurants here specialize in kalbi and you can get Angus beef if you order kalbi. I hardly ever see anyone order bulgogi at a better bbq restaurant here.

jhlurie · May 22, 2003

My abilities at the Korean language are non-existent so I won't even try.

FYI, MatthewB:

BBQ thin-sliced beef

= bulgogi, bulgoki, bulkogi, pulgogi or several million other spellings :biggrin:

Grilled beef short ribs

= galbi, kalbi or countless other variants

Koreans rule when it comes to BBQ beef, but I've also had great BBQ pork loin as well ("Daeji", I think its called). Chicken... its rarely been as good, though.

Hey, Google is great... this is useful . . . although I'm not sure I understand why beef is SOH-GO-GI and yet BBQ Beef is BUL-GO-GI.

skchai · May 22, 2003

Koreans are pretty unusual among East Asians (other than Vietnamese) in their long-time high estimation of beef. Perhaps this is why the rise in beef availability and consumption among Japanese has been accompanied by a boom in the popularity of Korean-style Yakiniku restaurants. Interestingly, this implies that Korean-style restaurants have been among the biggest beneficiaries of the increased influx into Japan of Australian and New Zealand beef! Talk about globalization . . .

Which brings me to a related question (I don't know if this fits in this topic or the one in the Japan group). A branch of the Japanese "Korean Yakiniku" chain Gyukaku opened in Honolulu a while ago, and looking at their menu it struck me again how wide the divergence is between Japanese-Korean food and Korean-Korean food.

Apart from the (scandalous!) fact that you have to pay for kim chee and other side dishes (which prevented me from actually visiting the place), the main thing that struck me was the fact that the offering of meats, despite the ubiquitous "karubi", was so different in both content and conception from what you find at a Korean-Korean restaurant. At Gyukaku in Hawai'i, you have the following beef menu:

Kalbi (short ribs)
the shio + lemon combo made us no.1 in Japan, choice of shio, ta're or miso. $5.25
Garlic Kalbi $5.25
Prime Kalbi
prime cuts of kalbi, choice of shio, ta're or miso. $7.75
Gyu-Tongue
thin cuts of beef tongue. $6.95
Atsugiri Gyu-Tongue
thick cuts of beef tongue. $7.95
Nakaochi Kalbi
juicy cubes of rib meat. $5.25
choice of ta're, shio or miso.
Spicy Miso Nakaochi Kalbi $4.95 - New!
Ro'su (rib eye)
choice of ta're, shio or miso. $4.95
Ro'su Ponzu $5.45 - New!
Harami (outside skirt)
one taste of this beef and you're hooked, choice of ta're, garlic, shio or miso . $4.95
Spicy Miso Harami $4.95 - New!
Liver
choice of shio or miso $4.95
Prime Ribeye
perfectly trimmed mini steaks with tender, juicy flavor. $8.95
ponzu or mustard soy sauce - New! Kalbi
Rousu (ribeye)

Gyukaku claims to have 600+ branches in Japan. Torakris, have you ever been to one? What did you think of the food? Is the Hawaii menu representative of what they serve in Japan? Is the Gyukaku menu representative of Japanese Yakiniku restaurant menus?

In contrast, no Korean-Korean grilled-meat specialty restaurant I know of in Korea or the U.S. offers mix-and-match marinades. On the other hand, they tend to offer far more choice regarding cuts of meat, including variety meats. They might include (again, we're just talking about the beef dishes here):

Kalbi - same as "Karubi", only less sweet

Saeng Kalbi - Kalbi without marinade

Suwon Kalbi - Big Fat Kalbi

Idong Kalbi - Teeny-weeny Kalbi

L.A. Kalbi - Kalbi cut perpendicular to the bone in ~1/4-1/2 inch slices, with three or four bones to a slice.

Bulgogi - this is typically marinated ribeye or sirloin. Basically what is referred to as "rosu" in Japan. There is also a "rosu-gui" in Korea, but it is something different (see below)

Anshim - this is, roughly speaking, the tenderloin. A kind of bulgogi, but more expensive.

Sogum Gui / Rosu Gui - boneless bulgogi meat without any marinade, cut in squares, more thickly than regular bulgogi. Usually dipped in roasted sesame oil mixed with salt.

Jumulleok - basically rosu gui that has been massaged into relative tenderness (using hands and various other body extremities) along with the sesame oil and salt.

Chadol Baegi - Brisket. For some reason it is not that cheap in most Korean restaurants. Certain people like the chewiness a lot.

Jebi Churi - Actually not sure what this is but tastes like Chadol Baegi sort of. I think it is chuck steak basically . Not as cheap as you would expect either.

Yang - tripe. Both honeycomb and the other kind (ergh, the one sometimes called gras double - anyone can help me here?).

Gopchang / Naejang - small intestine.

Hyeomit-Gui - tongue.

These will typically make up the choices on menu at Korean restaurants in Hawaii too, even those labelled "Yakiniku" to attract the Japanese tourist crowd. There is something else that is ubiquitious in Hawaii known as "Korean BBQ". It is basically Korean-Local fast food, but that would be digressing to much. . .

skchai · May 22, 2003

Because the places here in LA that serve bulgogi, I don't know. Maybe they aren't doing it right. They treat it like a stepchild of bbq. It comes out all stringy and stir fried like yoshinoya with sauce. Whereas all the restaurants here specialize in kalbi and you can get Angus beef if you order kalbi. I hardly ever see anyone order bulgogi at a better bbq restaurant here.

Right you are. Bulgogi is somehow the poor half-brother of Kalbi at most Korean restaurants, besides being the stepchild of BBQ (and thus not even true BBQ, thunder the ghosts of Arthur Bryant and Louie Mueller). In Korea, it's pretty typical for bulgogi to be about half the price of kalbi, which is the king of meats. Bulgogi is somehow considered to be a more home-style dish and a lot of people wouldn't consider ordering it in a restaurant.

. . . although I'm not sure I understand why beef is SOH-GO-GI and yet BBQ Beef is BUL-GO-GI.

So -> Cow

Bul -> Fire

Gogi -> Meat

Sogogi -> Beef

Bulgogi -> Grilled Boneless Beef

Dwaeji Bulgogi -> Grilled Boneless Pork

All of this is "pure" Korean - no chinese characters involved, even if I could input them.

But don't ask me why only some grilled meats are called bulgogi and other kinds are not. I don't know!

Jinmyo · May 22, 2003

skchai, this is great information. Thank you so much!

torakris · May 22, 2003

skchai,

great information!!

Gyukaku is probably the biggest yakiniku chain in Japan, there are 4 of them within a 15 minute from my house!!

I actually go quite often as the price is quite good for yakiniku.

The Hawaiian menu is quite different, most of my favorite dishes are not even on it. So can it now be called Americanized Japanese Korean BBQ? :biggrin:

torakris · May 22, 2003

here is gyukaku Japan menu all in Japanese:

http://www.gyukaku.ne.jp/

to look at the menu you need to click on the second of the 5 words at the top of the page it says menu no goshokai (ƒƒjƒ…‚Ì‚²Ð‰îjA there are 3 pages, to get to the next page you need to click on the cow holding the glass at the bottom right side.

It is definitely worth a visti, I see they have on in L.A. too.

I recommend the P. toro, wonderful stuff!

I don't care for their salads here but they may be better in the US, the kimchi is quite good though.

skchai · May 23, 2003

here is gyukaku Japan menu all in Japanese:
http://www.gyukaku.ne.jp/
to look at the menu you need to click on the second of the 5 words at the top of the page it says menu no goshokai (ƒƒjƒ…‚Ì‚²Ð‰îjA there are 3 pages, to get to the next page you need to click on the cow holding the glass at the bottom right side.
It is definitely worth a visti, I see they have on in L.A. too.
I recommend the P. toro, wonderful stuff!
I don't care for their salads here but they may be better in the US, the kimchi is quite good though.

Thanks for the link! I had fun looking at it.

Yeah the U.S. menus seem to be adjusted to take out some of the more esoteric items. For instance, I don't think any of the "Tokusenhin" are on the U.S. menu.

However, the P-Toro is here at in the U.S.! Also the Kurobuta Sausage! I didn't mention them before because they're pork (at some point, I think this was a thread about beef). Must check it out for that alone. . .

Actually, I may have given you the L.A. menu by mistake instead of the Honolulu one. But they seem pretty similar though the L.A. menu doesn't seem to have the negi-miso or nego-shio.

Seems they have a branch in Taiwan as well. . .

tissue · May 23, 2003

here is gyukaku Japan menu all in Japanese:
http://www.gyukaku.ne.jp/
to look at the menu you need to click on the second of the 5 words at the top of the page it says menu no goshokai (ƒƒjƒ…‚Ì‚²Ð‰îjA there are 3 pages, to get to the next page you need to click on the cow holding the glass at the bottom right side.
It is definitely worth a visti, I see they have on in L.A. too.
I recommend the P. toro, wonderful stuff!
I don't care for their salads here but they may be better in the US, the kimchi is quite good though.

I've been to Gyu-Kaku in LA many times. They just opened their 2nd branch. It's always soooo crowded though, especially since it's a small place. I really like it, their shio flavored galbi.

tissue · May 23, 2003

L.A. Kalbi - Kalbi cut perpendicular to the bone in ~1/4-1/2 inch slices, with three or four bones to a slice.
Chadol Baegi - Brisket. For some reason it is not that cheap in most Korean restaurants. Certain people like the chewiness a lot.

I don't prefer for my galbi to be sliced this way. I like it sliced around the bone. I like to gnaw on meat around the bone. It's SOOOO GOOOD. :raz: The better bbq restaurants in LA only serve galbi with the meat sliced around the bone. I'm always amazed by how different the texture can vary when meat is sliced differently (i.e. flank against the grain.)

Chadol Baegi is delicious. They slice it thin. I'm always careful not to overcook this so it won't end up chewy.

skchai · May 23, 2003

L.A. Kalbi - Kalbi cut perpendicular to the bone in ~1/4-1/2 inch slices, with three or four bones to a slice. . . .
I don't prefer for my galbi to be sliced this way. I like it sliced around the bone. I like to gnaw on meat around the bone. It's SOOOO GOOOD. The better bbq restaurants in LA only serve galbi with the meat sliced around the bone. I'm always amazed by how different the texture can vary when meat is sliced differently (i.e. flank against the grain.). . .

You're right. LA Kalbi is something that is associated with more with Korean fast food (at least in Hawai`i) or cooking kalbi at home or on a picnic. I guess the advantage of it is that you don't have to butterfly it to make the "flag" of meat attached to the bone. But in most mid-to-upper range restaurants kalbi will always be cut in the more traditional fashion. Even in LA!

torakris · May 24, 2003

I have never seen this cut of meat outside of Hawaii,and there it was everywhere. All of the Korean restaurants I have been to on the mainland offered the big bone with 3 horizontal cuts. I like them both!

In Japan though, kalbi is usually served with no bone! bulgoki is not very popular in yakiniku shops and I don't recall seeing on a menu. kalbi is the main beef type served and it is a boneless cut of meat about a 1/4 inch thick and it is usaully served in 3 types

rosu (this is a nicely marbled cut)

jourosu (this is even better rosu, jou can mean something like exceptional)

harami (the outside skirt, almost no fat)

harami is by far my favorite, this is true beef flavor.

I have long harami strip (about a foot and a half) in my freezer waiting for our next BBQ).

The meat with bone is slowly gaining in popularity but is still difficult to find, my husband and I pick it up at a Korean butcher.

skchai · May 24, 2003

I have never seen this cut of meat outside of Hawaii,and there it was everywhere. All of the Korean restaurants I have been to on the mainland offered the big bone with 3 horizontal cuts. I like them both!

I am under the impression what this cut was in fact invented in Honolulu, since it's been around here for at least 25-some odd years. Am not sure why it is called LA Kalbi, then, except perhaps for the fact that many Koreans may assume that anything invented by Korean-Americans must be from LA!

In Japan though, kalbi is usually served with no bone! bulgoki is not very popular in yakiniku shops and I don't recall seeing on a menu. kalbi is the main beef type served and it is a boneless cut of meat about a 1/4 inch thick and it is usaully served in 3 types
rosu (this is a nicely marbled cut)
jourosu (this is even better rosu, jou can mean something like exceptional)
harami (the outside skirt, almost no fat)
harami is by far my favorite, this is true beef flavor.
I have long harami strip (about a foot and a half) in my freezer waiting for our next BBQ).
The meat with bone is slowly gaining in popularity but is still difficult to find, my husband and I pick it up at a Korean butcher.

That's interesting. . . it seems to imply that in Japan, the term kalbi is used generically to refer to almost any kind of beef yakiniku. In Korea, if it doesn't have a bone, then it's not kalbi. Kalbi literally means "ribs". But I guess in the U.S. we do have things such as "country-style ribs" and "riblets" that have no ribs!

A question about "rosu". Can you help me with the etymology? Since it's written in katakana, is it derived from "roast"? Or something else like (gulp) "rose"? Thanks!

torakris · May 24, 2003

That's interesting. . . it seems to imply that in Japan, the term kalbi is used generically to refer to almost any kind of beef yakiniku. In Korea, if it doesn't have a bone, then it's not kalbi. Kalbi literally means "ribs". But I guess in the U.S. we do have things such as "country-style ribs" and "riblets" that have no ribs!
A question about "rosu". Can you help me with the etymology? Since it's written in katakana, is it derived from "roast"? Or something else like (gulp) "rose"? Thanks!

I had never thought about the origins of rosu before, this is what I found in the dictionary

ƒ[ƒX

k‹lsirloin;k“Ølpork loin;kö‚µÄ‚«‚É“K‚µ‚½ltender red meat that is suitable for roasting

so it does come from roast.

Back to kalbi, in Japan, it is pretty such synonamous with yakiniki. Supermarkets sell packs of meat some labeled for yakiniku, some labeled kalbi style and yet they are the same thing.

To distinguish meat on the bone they say hone-tsuki (hone=bone and tsuki= with)

torakris · May 24, 2003

Test your skill at yakiniku grilling!

here is a yakiniku simulator where you try to get the meat just right! (not raw, not burned)

http://www.ymori.com/flash/yakiniku.html

click on the oval at the bottom that says H‚×‚é@(eat!)

chengb02 · January 30, 2004

I am a big fan of bulgolgi, even more so than kalbi because sometimes it can be too fat. Either way, they are both excellent and there's nothing better than grilling it yourself and then wrapping it in lettuce with a touch of hot pepper paste.

viaChgo · January 30, 2004

Saeng Kalbi - Kalbi without marinade
Sogum Gui / Rosu Gui - boneless bulgogi meat without any marinade, cut in squares, more thickly than regular bulgogi. Usually dipped in roasted sesame oil mixed with salt.
Hyeomit-Gui - tongue.

These, along with the regular kalbi & blugogi are my favorites. I do like the unmarinated meats with the sesame oil/salt/pepper dipping sauce along with a spicy, dressed, scallions & lettuce for wrapping.

Also the cold here in Chicago has got me craving braised short ribs...klabi chim. I'd have to say that's one of my favorites as well!

jschyun · February 10, 2004

Bulgogi is easier to make than galbi. Also, if you weigh the portions, I bet you get a lot less meat with bulgogi. I would guess that's why galbi is more expensive.

When I make galbi i have to make sure no bone bits, maybe butterfly or use the precut strips, and have to pound it or at least get your hand in there, marinate it, then cook it. Pain in the you know where.

Bulgogi just pour on the marinade before cooking and then grill away. In my experience, and perhaps it's atypical, but the less time it sits in the marinade, the more tender it is. I know that's contrary to what you would intuitively guess, but that's what I found. Then I quick cook it and it stays very tender, instead of taking on that hard, overcooked stringy quality.

Marco_Polo · February 11, 2004

While I would concede that bulgogi as served in most western Korean restaurants is often indifferent, usually way too sweet for one thing, I would state categorically that properly home-prepared bulgogi is the greatest food in the world. Of course I may be biased: I was virtually weaned on the stuff, and everyone in my family has their own variation. That's how food evolves, and who can say what is 'authentic'?

Here's my take on it (from a piece I wrote a few years ago):

Bulgogi — Korean bbq — my way

In traditional societies and cultures, certainly, the passing down of recipes from mother to daughter (usually) is one way of keeping taste, national, local and familial culture and food intact. Traditional recipes may change little as they are passed down the generations because one learns 'the right' way to do them, i.e. mother's (or grandmother's) way. However, today, with families often living far apart, the extended family no longer reality for most of us, the ties that bind are nowhere near as strong, so inevitably more radical recipe mutations may occur down the line.

In my own personal experience, this evolution can be rather like a game of chinese whispers (or should I say korean), with our own end results often very different, sometimes hardly recognisable, from, say, my grandmother's original, yet still undeniably rooted to that original. Such variations may be as much a reflection of place and culture as time and space since we literally inhabit very different worlds (physically, culturally, generationally, emotionally). To raise that dreaded 'f' word, this is how true fusion foods are often created, as a perfectly natural evolutionary process.

An example: one of the most delicious mainstays of the Korean kitchen is bulgogi, marinaded barbecued beef. My grandmother liked to prepare bulgogi in the classic traditional Korean way: she'd cut the meat in fairly fine strips, then marinade in soy sauce, garlic, ginger, and toasted sesame seeds. The meat ideally ought to be cooked at the table, on a domed brass shield as part of a communal cooking-and-eating experience. Halmoni would always insist on doing this herself, as she liked to be in control, using metal chopsticks to pick out the choicest titbits for those in her favour — I usually scored big since I was a favourite (if prodigal) grandson. As the meat was cooked you'd take a piece of lettuce, add a spoon of steamed white rice, perhaps a bit of chili-tinted kochujang, and finally a bit of the char-grilled meat; then you'd roll it all up and eat with the fingers. Wonderful!

My mother, growing up in Hawaii and California, on the other hand, where meat was plentiful and relatively inexpensive, would keep the meat in fairly large pieces, scored deeply in a diamond pattern with a knife. The marinade was basically similar, though Mom added vinegar and heaps of springs onions, didn't bother with the toasted sesame (a very distinctive, and to my mind, essential flavouring). She always like to cook Korean barbecue (rarely called it bulgogi) over a charcoal-fired hibachi in the backyard. The meat was served more like an American style char-grilled steak, together always with a huge pot of rice and a green salad dressed with vinaigrette. Equally wonderful and probably my all-time favourite desert island meal.

Me, I love both of the above but I still can't help fiddling around with variations, attempting, perhaps, to gild gold. I love to use the basic marinade for sirloin steaks: cook over charcoal, then serve with a fusion sauce that is a sort of Cabernet-infused beurre blanc made with the strained leftover marinade. It works well.

Tonight I'll do something different. Some of my cycling and chef friends are coming around this evening, first for a farewell cycle then a final communal meal which we'll all cook together. Our great friends the Brandons are emigrating to New Zealand in a few weeks. John, deputy headmaster and renowned local chef, is both a great cycling as well as foodie mate. So tonight is the last chance to ride and cook together, perhaps for a very long time. David'll go down to the docks at Exmouth to pick up some live crabs from his trawlermen friends. Jeremy is doing his party piece mushroom risotto, the only dish he can cook, but boy is it good. Michael will make a flying cameo appearance after his stint in his two-star Michelin kitchens at Gidleigh, no doubt with some incredible offering. And John will make us, for the last time ever, his amazing bread and butter pudding, the best I've ever had.

Me, I've got a thick piece of rump steak marinading in the pungent mix of soy sauce, garlic, ginger and sesame. I plan to cook this over charcoal for only the briefest period, say 4 or 5 minutes in total, then leave to rest. Then I'll slice the meat on the slant into the thinnest pieces — charred on the outside but almost raw inside — and I'll lay the slices over a bed of organic mizuna, peppery wild rocket, and herbs, all from our local organic farm, Highfield. Over the sliced meat, I'll pile a heap of thinly sliced radishes, shredded spring onions, chopped coriander and of course a sprinkle of the toasted sesame seeds. Then I'll dress the whole lot with the strained marinade together with a generous squeeze of the juice from a couple of limes.

Purists may not agree, but this to me is undoubtedly bulgogi — Korean barbecue — though unmistakably a product of this particular moment in time and space. I wonder if my grandmother, who passed away earlier this year age 94, would have liked it? My guess is that, yes, she would have (but she might have struggled with the cycling).

Bulgogi, my way

Marinade

4 fat cloves of garlic, peeled, crushed and finely chopped

1 inch piece of root ginger, peeled, crushed and finely chopped

6 spring onions, shredded on the diagonal

1/2 cup of Kikkoman soy sauce (no other brand will do)

4 tablespoons vegetable oil

1 tablespoon sesame oil

2 tablespoons coarsely crushed black peppercorns

1 tablespoon toasted sesame seeds

1 large piece of lean organic rump steak, at least an inch or more thick (flank steak or sirloin would also be suitable), say about a kilo and a half

Mixed wild greens and herbs, such as organic mizuna, wild rocket, dandelion leaves, mesclun, fresh basil, flat leaf parsley and/or coriander

6 spring onions, shredded on the diagonal

Some light vinaigrette made with peanut oil, sherry vinegar, and a splash of soy sauce

A bunch of radishes, finely sliced

A large handful of coriander, coarsely chopped

1 tablespoon toasted sesame seeds, crushed with salt

2 limes

Trim the beef of fat and any connecting tissue. Score lightly in a diamond pattern. Place in a large flat dish. Mix together all the marinade ingredients, pour over and massage into the meat with your hands. Leave for about an hour.

Prepare a charcoal fire, heat up a grill or ribbed castiron skillet to very hot. Drain the meat, reserving the marinade, pat dry, and cook briefly, only about two or three minutes a side. The meat should be charred on the outside but still virtually blue inside. Remove to a wooden board and leave to rest for about 10 minutes.

Meanwhile, place the marinade in a small saucepan, and bring to the boil for a few minutes. wash and dry the salad leaves and herbs, if necessary. Dress lightly with the vinaigrette and pile onto a large platter. Slice the beef on the diagonal and arrange the slices over the dressed salad leaves and herbs. Pile on top of the meat the shredded spring onions, sliced radishes and coarsely chopped coriander. Squeeze over the juice of a couple of limes, garnish with the toasted sesame seeds, then strain the cooking marinade and drizzle over everything.

Wine: The deeply flavoured, almost pungent Korean marinade combined with the peppery, hot wild leaves demands an equally assertive wine, perhaps something rather wild and untamed, such as Aglianico del Vulture, from Italy's deep south, or a rustic Montepulciano d'Abruzzo. Or, since this is undoubtedly a fusion meal, how about going back to my childhood roots and serving with a good Californian Sangiovese.

jschyun · February 13, 2004

skchai, where do you get jebi churi? I don't think I've ever had this.

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