Greek V Turkish Food

tighe · February 20, 2003

It seems to me that Greek and Turkish cuisines share similarities at the level you would expect of two adjacent cultures, but to say the two are indistiguishable would simply be wrong. Just for starters, and this was already pointed out I believe, neither are homogenous cuisines. Comparing traditional Ottoman cuisine to the cooking of the south western coast of Turkey to the cuisine of Gazantiep in the southeast shows at least as much variety as the regional cuisines of Italy or France.

I agree with Steve that at its most refined level, Turkish food is more complex in its technique and structure than any Greek food I've ever had although I will admit my experience with Greek food is limited.

If one is looking for specific differences between the two, there are a couple I can think of off the top of my head. Turkish food features pilafs made with rice, lentils, etc. which I've never encountered in Greek food. I believe this reflects the influence of Turkey's neighbors to the other side, Iran. I also think it would be hard to argue that Greek food uses spices in as pronounced a way. In fact, I have generally found Greek food to be relatively bland.

Do Turks do mezze?

'Mezze' is a word in Turkish in fact, although I assume the same word is used in other languages in the region as well.

Someone mentioned that many Turkish restaurants bill themselves as 'Mediterranean'. This is true here in Seattle as well, and my guess is that it is because most Americans would have no idea what to expect from a 'Turkish' restaurant, but 'Mediterranean' doesn't sound very threatening.....

Edited February 20, 2003 by tighe (log)

Jason Perlow · February 20, 2003

Someone mentioned that many Turkish restaurants bill themselves as 'Mediterranean'. This is true here in Seattle as well, and my guess is that it is because most Americans would have no idea what to expect from a 'Turkish' restaurant, but 'Mediterranean' doesn't sound very threatening.....

Pretty much the same thing has happened in the NY/NJ metro area. After 9/11, virtually all Turkish restaurants billed themselves as "Mediterranean Cusine" and re-did their signs and awnings to reflect this. I saw this happen personally in the town I live in, where the local place changed its name from "Kervan II: Middle Eastern Cuisine" to "Sapphire: Fine Meditterranean Cusine" in a single weekend. This is because "Kervan II" was vandalized due to negative reaction from 9/11.

Steve Klc · February 20, 2003

Priscilla and wgallois--havuc koftesi? Havuc is Turkish for carrot I believe. I've only had one version of it--fritters of carrot, apricot, pine nut served on a bed of coarse pistachio sauce. Incredibly addictive. Was your's a dip or spread?

For others interested, allow me to recommend a book I used "Timeless Tastes--Turkish Culinary Culture," about 67 Euros, beautifully illustrated and researched.

hollywood · February 20, 2003

Someone mentioned that many Turkish restaurants bill themselves as 'Mediterranean'. This is true here in Seattle as well, and my guess is that it is because most Americans would have no idea what to expect from a 'Turkish' restaurant, but 'Mediterranean' doesn't sound very threatening.....
Pretty much the same thing has happened in the NY/NJ metro area. After 9/11, virtually all Turkish restaurants billed themselves as "Mediterranean Cusine" and re-did their signs and awnings to reflect this. I saw this happen personally in the town I live in, where the local place changed its name from "Kervan II: Middle Eastern Cuisine" to "Sapphire: Fine Meditterranean Cusine" in a single weekend. This is because "Kervan II" was vandalized due to negative reaction from 9/11.

Yes, I think you are right. In Los Angeles, Turks seem to keep a very low profile. Something about Armenians having long memories. Ironic in this context given the overlapping cuisines.

Jason Perlow · February 20, 2003

Someone mentioned that many Turkish restaurants bill themselves as 'Mediterranean'. This is true here in Seattle as well, and my guess is that it is because most Americans would have no idea what to expect from a 'Turkish' restaurant, but 'Mediterranean' doesn't sound very threatening.....
Pretty much the same thing has happened in the NY/NJ metro area. After 9/11, virtually all Turkish restaurants billed themselves as "Mediterranean Cusine" and re-did their signs and awnings to reflect this. I saw this happen personally in the town I live in, where the local place changed its name from "Kervan II: Middle Eastern Cuisine" to "Sapphire: Fine Meditterranean Cusine" in a single weekend. This is because "Kervan II" was vandalized due to negative reaction from 9/11.
Yes, I think you are right. In Los Angeles, Turks seem to keep a very low profile. Something about Armenians having long memories. Ironic in this context given the overlapping cuisines.

A lot of Turkish/Greek delis in Bergen County, NJ are owned by Armenians. Thats where I get my supply of Lahmajun when I have a hankering for it.

tighe · February 20, 2003

Priscilla and wgallois--havuc koftesi? Havuc is Turkish for carrot I believe. I've only had one version of it--fritters of carrot, apricot, pine nut served on a bed of coarse pistachio sauce. Incredibly addictive. Was your's a dip or spread?
For others interested, allow me to recommend a book I used "Timeless Tastes--Turkish Culinary Culture," about 67 Euros, beautifully illustrated and researched.

Havuc (with a 'tail' on the 'c') is the word for carrot.

This post reminds me of another different between Greek and Turkish cuisines. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but Greece doesn't have kofte do they?

Fat Guy · February 20, 2003

Turkish recipes in my experience have more technique loaded into them, which pretty much means doing things to change the textures of meats and chicken and having a more sophisticated saucing routine.

This is a localized variation on an argument you've made elsewhere. I'm just noting it here so I don't forget to come back later for a more in-depth discussion after I do a little more reading and thinking. My gut is that I agree with the conclusion but not the reasoning. More later.

Jason Perlow · February 20, 2003

Priscilla and wgallois--havuc koftesi? Havuc is Turkish for carrot I believe. I've only had one version of it--fritters of carrot, apricot, pine nut served on a bed of coarse pistachio sauce. Incredibly addictive. Was your's a dip or spread?
For others interested, allow me to recommend a book I used "Timeless Tastes--Turkish Culinary Culture," about 67 Euros, beautifully illustrated and researched.
Havuc (with a 'tail' on the 'c') is the word for carrot.
This post reminds me of another different between Greek and Turkish cuisines. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but Greece doesn't have kofte do they?

Yes they do. Bifteki Kebab. and KEFTETHES. Beef Kofta, right? They also do it with ground lamb. And chicken. During lent they make em with chickpeas, which basically makes them felafel, I guess.

tighe · February 20, 2003

Priscilla and wgallois--havuc koftesi? Havuc is Turkish for carrot I believe. I've only had one version of it--fritters of carrot, apricot, pine nut served on a bed of coarse pistachio sauce. Incredibly addictive. Was your's a dip or spread?
For others interested, allow me to recommend a book I used "Timeless Tastes--Turkish Culinary Culture," about 67 Euros, beautifully illustrated and researched.
Havuc (with a 'tail' on the 'c') is the word for carrot.
This post reminds me of another different between Greek and Turkish cuisines. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but Greece doesn't have kofte do they?
Yes they do. Bifteki Kebab. and KEFTETHES. Beef Kofta, right? They also do it with ground lamb. And chicken.

OK, so my ignorance of Greek food comes shining through! :smile:

Steve Klc · February 20, 2003

Here's a nice little piece by Marion Burros from years ago, which quotes Tugrul Savkay. Savkay contributed the chapter called "The Cultural and Historic Context of Turkish Cuisine" in the book I mentioned previously:

http://www.antiquetheatrehotel.com/chefs.htm

An excerpt: "Many of these dishes mays sound familiar to Americans because they have had them in Greek restaurants here, but Turks say that most of them originated in Turkey. Who can lay claim to what, however, is just part of the continuing hard feelings between the two countries.

The foundation of Turkish cooking is grain - wheat and rice. Borek is made with the translucent sheets of pastry called yufka in Turkey and phyllo in Greece (and in America) that are layered and folded into various shapes after being filled, usually with meat or cheese. Another form of thin dough is called su borek, which is boiled like pasta and stuffed. Manti, tiny meat-filled dumplings, are part of the culinary tradition that had its origins in China."

Jason Perlow · February 20, 2003

On searching for kofta and kefthedes, I found another greek recipe site:

http://www.eatgreektonight.com

Varmint · February 20, 2003

Not to confuse the issue any further, but how do these cuisines differ from Serbian food? Jason's mentioning of bureks made me recall my many Serbian meals in Milwaukee, which had 4 or 5 Serbian restaurants several years ago.

tighe · February 20, 2003

I had one of the truly great dinners of my life at the Ciragan Palace Hotel mentioned in this piece. The complexity and sophistication of the dishes rivaled anything I've ever had.

tighe · February 20, 2003

Not to confuse the issue any further, but how do these cuisines differ from Serbian food? Jason's mentioning of bureks made me recall my many Serbian meals in Milwaukee, which had 4 or 5 Serbian restaurants several years ago.

It wouldn't be surprising if there are similarities since the Balkans (except for Greece) were part of the Ottoman empire for a long time. Also the reason that there is a significant Muslim population in the region.

Jason Perlow · February 20, 2003

The Ottoman Empire had a tremendous reach, which is why Lebanese and Palestinian/Israeli cuisine shares a lot of these things as well.

see "Jerusalem During the Ottoman Period"

http://jeru.huji.ac.il/eh1.htm

g.johnson · February 20, 2003

Jason Perlow · February 20, 2003

Okay, its settled. Its Ottoman Cuisine.

Jason Perlow · February 20, 2003

If you take a look at this later map, you can sort of understand where things get funky:

http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Ottoman.jpg

Here's another cool one, that shows how it was chopped up:

http://www.ottomansouvenir.com/img/Maps/Ot...nt_1683_map.jpg

Varmint · February 20, 2003

I need to look through my copy of Clifford Wright's A Mediterranean Feast. That may provide some assistance.

Jason Perlow · February 20, 2003

Here is a whole treatise on turkish/ottoman cuisine:

http://www.ottomansouvenir.com/Turkish_Cui...ish_cuisine.htm

Nice pictures too.

Steve Plotnicki · February 20, 2003

This business of having a refined and/or sophisticated cuisine isn't really rocket scientry. If a country has had a bourgois class, chances are a refined version of the cuisine came into existence to cater to that class of people. All the great cuisines of the world seem to have had a cuisine intended for an aristocratic class, or a bourgois class. Take Indian, Moroccan cuisine, even moles in Mexico are tinkered with and balanced by people with a great amount of time on their hands. But ultimately, and this was what Fat Guy was referring to, refinement and sophistication is usually expressed through texture. Reducing things down, straining bits off, thickening things to make them smoother and to have more body, anything to make the feel more luxurous. Or a different way is the way you slice things. Paper thin ham or smoked salmon, sushi sliced just perfectly, or as we talked about in the Spanish regional thread, they way they slice the ingredients in a Tian d'Agneau which are perfect slices of lamb, tomato, eggplant, onions formed into the shape of a cake, where the thickness of the slices turns it a whole greater then the sum of its parts. In Middle Eastern cooking including Turkish, but not Greek in my knowledge, the butchers' blade in chopping the ingredients for an Adana Kebab is paramount. Not everyone's texture is the same.

I guess somehwre in this post is the argument that says that once upon a time, and maybe continuing today, Turkey had a better defined aristocratic and/or middle class then Greece did. At least that's what I get out of it when I eat the cuisines.

Jason Perlow · February 20, 2003

Bullshit. Thats the best I can say to that.

Beachfan · February 20, 2003

When I ate my way through Turkey and Greece about 12 years ago, I noticed striking differences. I at entirely at low to mid price places.

1) Greeks had baklava

2) Turks had baklava and 5 variations on it, at the same level of place that the Greeks had only one

1) Greeks had yoghurt

2) Turks had beet yoghurt, garlic yoghurt, curry yoghurt, etc. at the same type of cafe that would only have one type in Greece.

The basic ingredients were the same but for the spices. However, that's a big but. Turkish food was much, much more interesting at similar levels of everyday food.

I don't have much experience at upscale Turkish restuarants.

Steve Plotnicki · February 20, 2003

Bullshit to what? You don't think Turkish food is more refined then Greek food or you don't think the reason is that Turkey had an aristocratic/monied class that drove a more refined cuisine?

hollywood · February 20, 2003

This business of having a refined and/or sophisticated cuisine isn't really rocket scientry. If a country has had a bourgois class, chances are a refined version of the cuisine came into existence to cater to that class of people. All the great cuisines of the world seem to have had a cuisine intended for an aristocratic class, or a bourgois class. Take Indian, Moroccan cuisine, even moles in Mexico are tinkered with and balanced by people with a great amount of time on their hands. But ultimately, and this was what Fat Guy was referring to, refinement and sophistication is usually expressed through texture. Reducing things down, straining bits off, thickening things to make them smoother and to have more body, anything to make the feel more luxurous. Or a different way is the way you slice things. Paper thin ham or smoked salmon, sushi sliced just perfectly, or as we talked about in the Spanish regional thread, they way they slice the ingredients in a Tian d'Agneau which are perfect slices of lamb, tomato, eggplant, onions formed into the shape of a cake, where the thickness of the slices turns it a whole greater then the sum of its parts. In Middle Eastern cooking including Turkish, but not Greek in my knowledge, the butchers' blade in chopping the ingredients for an Adana Kebab is paramount. Not everyone's texture is the same.
I guess somehwre in this post is the argument that says that once upon a time, and maybe continuing today, Turkey had a better defined aristocratic and/or middle class then Greece did. At least that's what I get out of it when I eat the cuisines.

Steve,

Considering classic Greek writing, philosophy, sculpture and architecture, there would seem to be a flaw in your analysis about this being class based. If anything, you might expect Greek food to be finer.

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