Braising questions

[Fat Guy]

My understanding is that oxidation is mostly a factor that affects the color of raw meat, and the most pronounced effect is that it makes meat a brighter red (although it can also cause loss of color over time). The bulk of the color change to cooked meat comes, I believe, from denaturing caused by heat, not by oxidation. But I also think it's an oversimplification to speak of the "color of the meat changing" because what's going on is more an issue of different pigments being created and destroyed (and also added), and their interactions. Just as a related, simple example: lobsters are said to "turn red" when cooking. Actually, the lobster always had the red in it. The cooking simply destroys all the other pigments in a lobster's shell, leaving only the red. In raw meat, color is mostly decided by the ratio of myoglobin to oxymyoglobin to metmyoglobin. Cooked meat also has denatured metmyoglobin, which is as far as I know "the brown stuff." There are all sorts of things that can cause cooked meat to be pink: it can have to do with pH, or even nitrates -- remember, your braising liquid may contain water or vegetables with naturally occurring nitrates, or it may contain pH-affecting wine and such. Anyway, I'm no expert on this. Here are some sources:

Everything you ever wanted to know about the -globins in meat, from two meat scientists

Much information about the color of meat, from the USDA/FSIS

[MobyP]

Another question:

If you decide to braise cut X at 200 F for 7 hours, can you break this up into two times? For instance, 5 hours the first day, and then 2 hours to finish it on another day entirely (not counting that the in the cooling off period, it will keep cooking for a while...).

So, if the total time needed at the 'temperature stall' is (for example) 2 hours, can you do the first hour on one day, and the second the next, or is it a cumulative effect of heat on collagen?

[jackal10]

The problem is that meat conducts very slowly, and you will only get the centre of a decent size piece up to temperature in 5 hours, so you will need 6 hours+ another 6 hours for the same effect.

In the egCI science section http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=40548 refered to above there is a table about meat colour.

Oxymyoglobin is bright red; reduced is dark purple/brown, the colour of properly hung meat, since the maturation process uses up the oxygen; nitro-myoglobin, as in nitrite cured or smoked meats is pink; dnatured myoglobin, where thechemical structure has been denatured by cooking, is grey. It denatures around 55C/140F, much lower than the temperature at which the collagen dissolves with any speed.

Thus you can have your braised meat pink and tough, or greyish and falling apart.

I guess the pink colour you saw may have been from the nitrates, perhaps in the marinade or cooking liquor, for example leached fom some bacon included.

Personally I cook my braised meat to an internal temoerature of about 75C/170F, as a compromise between tenderness and still having some structure.

[Shalmanese]

For the record, these were about 5cm/2in cubs of chuck, marinated in coconut cream and ginger for 6 hours and then cooked slowly in a coconut cream/milk base for 2 hours and a gentle simmer.

My understand of braising was that there was a minimum cooking time but the thing only got better the longer you cooked it. Since braising times vary by as much as 100% between recipes, there doesn't seem to be all that much accuracy invovled.

People will leave crock pots on in the morning and eat it when they get home, crock pots at night and eat it for lunch, 2 hours braise, 6 hour braise, 6 hour braise + cool for 12 hours then another 6 hour brasie, how come they all come out edible if collagen goes through such a variety of transformations.

[fiftydollars]

What are everyone’s thoughts on braising temperatures?

I am fond of Mario Batali’s osso buco recipe, which requires braising for 2-2.5 hours at 375 degrees.

This seems to be a much higher temperature than what is used in most braising applications. Am I wrong to believe most braising is usually done around 100+ degrees lower than this osso buco?

[mamster]

I don't think braising temperature matters very much. If you put a pot in the oven at 375, you're cooking at a full boil. That might give you a smaller window between tender and dry, falling-apart mush, and it might be too vigorous for some of your ingredients (edges of the meat might fray, for example), but there's nothing inherently wrong with it. I've read in many otherwise reliable books that braising too hot will cause the meat to seize up and never become tender, or something like that, but that just isn't true in my experience.

[cjsadler]

I don't think braising temperature matters very much. If you put a pot in the oven at 375, you're cooking at a full boil. That might give you a smaller window between tender and dry, falling-apart mush, and it might be too vigorous for some of your ingredients (edges of the meat might fray, for example), but there's nothing inherently wrong with it. I've read in many otherwise reliable books that braising too hot will cause the meat to seize up and never become tender, or something like that, but that just isn't true in my experience.

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But won't this cause the rendered fat from the meat to emulsify into the braising liquid, making your eventual sauce too greasy tasting? Just like if you boiled your chicken stock at a high temp?

[Shalmanese]

I was always puzzled by the batali recipe and although I've made the dish several times, I've never had the guts to go at 375. OTOH, russ parson writes that braising can also be achieved at 400F in a tightly covered heavy dish although the result is markedly different.

To add a further wrinkle to the picture, pressure cooked meat cooked at temperatures far above boiling also inexplicably result in tender, falling apart meat. I'm guessing the effect of both the 400F and the PC methods are the same and rely on a different chemical process from conventional braising.

So is it every customary to braise at the temperature of med rare meat? I suppose it would be a mix between a braise and a poach.

[jackal10]

The rate the collagen dissolves is strongly temperature dependant - the hotter the faster, but then the drier is the resulting meat. Hotter in an open pan also results in the evaporation of more liquid (and the lighter aromatics). However its all the same chemistry.

Another factor is the thickness of the meat, which governs the time it takes for the centre to get up to temperature.

Remember the collagen is the connecting tissue; you also have to consider the degredation of the muscle fibres, and the hotter they get the dryer and stringier the result.

Pressure cookers get hotter than braising in an open pan. but to my taste make the meat dry. Tender, yes, but dry and stringy.

Double wrapping pans in foil etc are just ways of holding down the temperature.

You can braise at medium rare temperature, say 55C/140F. Some chefs cook meat sous-vide at this temperature in a water bath for days.

If you have a resonably constant temperature setting try it - its fairly easy to do. Myself, I don't like the effect I think it results in a sort of meat paste with tough lumps in it.

This is because while the muscle fibres don't go dry and stringy, only the thin inter-fibre collagen dissolves resulting in super-soft meat with little basic texture, and the larger bits of collagen such as the sinews, nerves, small blood vessels don't fully dissolve leaving little hard knots in the soft matrix of muscle fibres.

[RETREVR]

It doesn't really matter if you cover the meat by a third (Judy Rogers) or completely (Daniel Boulud). The cops won't kick down your door and bust you on it. The only issue is how much work you want to put into cleaning up your sauce afterwords - straining, removing the veg, and reducing the liquid to a sauce consistency.

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In application it does...depending on the cut. Having a nice crust can be to iceing on the cake of a good braise. Especially if the cut has a fat cap on it.

[RETREVR]

.....Just as a related, simple example: lobsters are said to "turn red" when cooking. Actually, the lobster always had the red in it. The cooking simply destroys all the other pigments in a lobster's shell, leaving only the red.

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A red lobster is actually every color but red. When we see red, we are actually seeing the red wavelengths of light reflecting off the shell of the lobster. The red lobster is in fact, yellow and blue.

[Shalmanese]

Thats funny, I would call PC meat the opposite of dry. The only things I really like in the PC are meaty pork bones from the asian butcher, the PC turns the bones crumbly which means it's a lot easier to get every last scrap of meat off them. For other things, I like stovetop so I can occasionally peek in and stir it once in a while.

[helenas]

Yesterday i braised oxtail/tongue using a recipe from Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall's MEAT book and now am planning to make the red wine sauce.

HFW's recipe calls for 1/2 bottle of red wine to be reduced with all the braising liquid not specifying the volume.

The braising got me 4 quarts/~litres of flavorful stock, and i think it's too much for the sauce.

So what if i use 2 quarts with 1/2 bottle of wine and reduce it to 4 cups?

Does it sound right? Or do i need more wine/less stock?

Thank you, helena

[Fat Guy]

.....Just as a related, simple example: lobsters are said to "turn red" when cooking. Actually, the lobster always had the red in it. The cooking simply destroys all the other pigments in a lobster's shell, leaving only the red.

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A red lobster is actually every color but red. When we see red, we are actually seeing the red wavelengths of light reflecting off the shell of the lobster. The red lobster is in fact, yellow and blue.

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But that's how we define the color of an object. An object that reflects only the red wavelengths of the visible spectrum is known as "red."

[nathanm]

The original post was about cooking meat slowly, at low tempertaure, so that the collagen turns to gelatine, but the meat is still medium rare. It works really well- at least for me.

However, you need the right circumstances. As a previous post discusses, first you need the meat interior to reach the desired temperature. That takes some time. 130F /54C to 140F / 60C is a fine range - I have done pretty much all of this.

You do not want to go lower than 130F / 54C for two reasons - food safety gets dodgy, and also the collagen-gelatine conversion slows down the lower you go.

Then you need to hold the meat at that temperature for enough time for the collagen to convert. A chart of time and temperature would be great, but alas i don't have one. I have a few results of my own and have collected a few more.

Heston Blumenthal says somewhere that 136F /58C is the best temperature for lamb, and suggests that no more than 10 hours.

There are two ways that I do it. One is to roast the meat in a Rational Combi Oven, with a special low temperature roasting program. First it browns the exterior at high temperature (392F / 200C), then the oven cools down, then it roasts at 150F / 66 C and slowly drops this down over time. Once the interior is the right temperature it then holds the meat at the interior setting for as long as you like (up to 24 hours).

The collagen to gelatine conversion requires water, so the exterior does NOT convert, but inside the meat it is plenty wet.

You could do this in a conventional oven but it is not easy because you can't wait until the interior hits the right temperature - it will overshoot on you.

The other way that I do this is sous vide. That is easy, you put the meat - usually with some liquid (stock, or oil / fat) and seal it in a vacuum bag. Then you put it in either a Rational combi oven on steam mode, or a laboratory water bath at the interior temperature. Again, once the interior reaches the right temperature you leave it fo sit for the conversion time.

I've done the roasting method up to 14 hours. I've done the sous vide method for up to 48 hours.

The result is tender meat that looks medium rare (is red inside), but is as tender as you want.

I have done lots of very tough meat cuts this way - it works great.

[pam claughton]

What is the first dish that comes to mind when you think of braising? Have you tried any new, interesting braises?

I've been exploring the new Molly Steven's Braising cookbook, and tried her Salmon braise. The sauce is a mix of bacon, leeks, shallots, and pinot noir.

The old faithful is a beef brisket, cooked in beer, beef broth, and tons of onions.

Pam

[Jinmyo]

Usually a blade roast.

But also osso bucco, pork shoulder, lamb shoulder, shanks.

Now and then sirloin tip.

[fimbul]

Good grief. Lamb shanks, pheasant legs, short ribs, duck legs, pork belly, chuck roast....

The other night I braised squab legs I'd marinated in (sheep's milk) yogurt with tamarind, fenugreek, cinnamon, and cloves. They're tiny things, just a couple bites each, so braising time was only 25 minutes or so, braised in the yogurt mixture and squab stock.

As a lover of poultry and game, I'll braise the legs of any bird unwary enough to wind up in my kitchen. Recipes vary, but I'm almost always pleased with the results and a satisfying braise can often be accomplished in an hour or two rather than the several hours required for lamb or veal shanks and the like, putting a braise within the range of a not-too-extraordinary week night dinner.

[Busboy]

As a lover of poultry and game, I'll braise the legs of any bird unwary enough to wind up in my kitchen.  Recipes vary, but I'm almost always pleased with the results and a satisfying braise can often be accomplished in an hour or two rather than the several hours required for lamb or veal shanks and the like, putting a braise within the range of a not-too-extraordinary week night dinner.

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Indeed, and not just the legs -- Chicken With 40 Cloves of Garlic is a classic that has the twin vitues of tasting delicious and being almost impossible to screw up. Serve it atop mashers or creamy polenta, to maximize consumption of braising liquids.

Lately we have brought much joy to the neighborhood by braising pork shoulders -- or is it pork butts? I know it when I see it -- in an in a more-or-less random ratio of apple cider, gewurtztraminer and calvados. On week two we take the leftovers and make barbecue sauce for them.

[fimbul]

Lately we have brought much joy to the neighborhood by braising pork shoulders -- or is it pork butts? I know it when I see it -- in an in a more-or-less random ratio of apple cider, gewurtztraminer and calvados.  On week two we take the leftovers and make barbecue sauce for them.

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Ooh! And country-style pork ribs braised in tequila, chicken stock, and cider vinegar with mexican oregano and cinnamon!

[elion_84]

The usual suspects - short ribs, lamb shanks or shoulder, duck legs. Also, I love braised fish. I use braised monkfish recipe from The Craft of Cooking a lot.

[chefreit]

Asian seasoned

Brisket!

[Busboy]

The usual suspects - short ribs, lamb shanks or shoulder, duck legs. Also, I love braised fish. I use braised monkfish recipe from The Craft of Cooking a lot.

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Forgive a dumb question, but why braise fish? It's already moist and tender. Seems like it would dry out (why I never eat paella) and fall apart. Is it a "real" long-term braise or a briefer encounter between the fish and water?

[pam claughton]

The usual suspects - short ribs, lamb shanks or shoulder, duck legs. Also, I love braised fish. I use braised monkfish recipe from The Craft of Cooking a lot.

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Forgive a dumb question, but why braise fish? It's already moist and tender. Seems like it would dry out (why I never eat paella) and fall apart. Is it a "real" long-term braise or a briefer encounter between the fish and water?

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It's a short braise, usually under 30 minutes, and like regular braising, just gives another level of flavor. Firmer fish, like Salmon and Monkfish seem better suited for it.

[chefdg]

short ribs.