the WATER topic

[Beachfan]

I've always loved NYC tap water, and living in LA makes you really appreciate it.

I drink San Pellegrino quite a bit (my favorite). Most of my water consumption is Crystal Geyser in the sport bottle (25.3 oz). Very convenient for those who want to get in their two quarts per day.

I prefer San Pellegrino to Sole or just about any other. I also like Badoit, I haven't found one close to my liking besides those two.

[jordan]

Wow, lots of preferences...

I am surprised to see how many people like/trust NYC tap water. I agree it does taste good but the purity scares me and the home filter systems like Brita are good for nothing (when tested the filtered water is still very impure).

Any way I thought you might like to know what won in the blind tasting:

Sparkling: Canada Dry Club Soda

Still: Poland Springs

As I mentioned in the original post many of the popular brands were included in the tasting. However I am sure that the lesser known brands were not included.

[Billy D]

I agree that NYC tap water tastes good but the purity does frighten me too. I like Canada Dry Club Soda (and others) but I don't like so many bubbles with food. When eating I prefer Badoit which is very hard to find in the states.

(Side note: Why is Badoit so hard to find?)

At home I like Poland Spring or Great Bear.

[KarenS]

I prefer sparkling water. My favorite is Badoit for the small bubbles. It is tres cher in Hawaii. I also like Crystal Geyser and Calistoga. Pelligrino and Panna are good too. Perrier bottles are too small. I do drink tap water too (no ice though).

[glenn]

I'm doing a little research for our restaurant [a downtown upscale nyc establishment] mainly for the purposes of possibly changing our water. Lesser concerns are the price we charge and whether to put it on the menu. Obviously, I'm only concerned with those of you who buy or might buy bottled water [regularly or not], not the diehards [like myself] who are content with tap. Bear in mind this is a nyc restaurant and the tap water here is considered pretty good.

Generally speaking, my research is geared to those going to an upscale establishment and spending at least $50/pp and a place where entrees start at close to $20 or higher. Here goes...

1. Is the brand of water important? If it's not on the menu, do you ask

what kind of water is available?

2. Would you not order water because of the brand? [For argument's sake, assume it's an upscale brand, i.e., Panna, Pellegrino, Voss, Evian, etc.]

3. Would you think more or less of an establishment because of the brand of the water it carried?

4. Is it important that that small bottles are available, i.e., .5 liter? If they're not, would you not order water or would you order a large bottle?

5. What is your favorite flat water? sparkling? Reason, if any?

6. What do you consider a reasonable charge, bearing in mind prices generally range from $5 upwards for a large bottle? What do you consider unreasonable and would it detract from your overall experience, all else being equal?

7. To the best of your recollection, is water on the menu at most establishment you frequent? Do you think it should be?

8. General comments?

9. Do you ask the price if it's not on the menu? If you don't ask the price, do you make a point to check the price when the bill comes?

top 5...

cool cool water - beach boys

water from the wells of home - johnny cash

water on the brain - hollies w/the s. plotzkie doo dah band

water is wide - felix pappalardi

the water boys

edit: to add #9, even though #8 s/b #9, but there are a couple of responses. and forgot to add, THANKS. [dimwit glenn]

[Beachfan]

1) Yes

2) Correct, won't order because of brand

3) No

4) The opposite, I resent when only small are available. Of course if it's $10/bottle, I might feel otherwise.

5) Anything other than evian.

6) $5 - $8 ok ($8 at a top place) more and I won't order it.

7) It's usually not on the menu

8) I like only a few waters; Pellegrino, Badoit. If the local water sucks (LA, Florida) then I'm open to more. In NYC the tap is delish, so I won't stray too often from those two and I'll go for tap.

[Jason Perlow]

1. Is the brand of water important? If it's not on the menu, do you ask

what kind of water is available?

I do ask but the brand is not important. I almost always order sparkling water with my meal, especially at a fine restaurant.

2. Would you not order water because of the brand? [For argument's sake, assume it's an upscale brand, i.e., Panna, Pellegrino, Voss, Evian, etc.]

No.

3. Would you think more or less of an establishment because of the brand of the water it carried?

I like the Sole' because it seems that the more educated restaurants carry it, because its less expensive (which usually translates to a less expensive bottle for the customer) and just as good as the other premium name brands. Overcharging for bottled water pisses me off. So cutting corners on brand names, as long as it means a cheaper bottle of water for the customer, is a good thing. Even offering something really cheap like 1 liter bottles of Canada Dry seltzer and selling it for 3 bucks a bottle would be preferable to selling Pellegrino or Perrier for 6 or 7 bucks a bottle

4. Is it important that that small bottles are available, i.e., .5 liter? If they're not, would you not order water or would you order a large bottle?

I prefer to order a large bottle. Or medium sized. The small ones to me seem like a rip off.

5. What is your favorite flat water? sparkling? Reason, if any?

Flat would be Poland Spring. Sparkling, Sole', Fiuggi or Pellegrino, with a slight edge to Sole'. Poland Spring tastes pure to me, and, and Sole is a bit less sulphury than the other two.

6. What do you consider a reasonable charge, bearing in mind prices generally range from $5 upwards for a large bottle? What do you consider unreasonable and would it detract from your overall experience, all else being equal?

above $6 a bottle would be oppressive.

7. To the best of your recollection, is water on the menu at most establishment you frequent? Do you think it should be?

Yes, it should always be on the menu.

[nightscotsman]

I agree with everything that Jason said, except I never ask about the brand before ordering, and I always order a big bottle sparkling water. I don't really care about the brand, but I'll admit that I like to have a cool looking bottle (like Voss) sitting on the table.

One thing I really appreciate is when lemon and/or lime is served on the side and not in the glass. I usually like my water plain, but even when I want a little flavor I want it to be my choice.

[Stone]

One thing I really appreciate is when lemon and/or lime is served on the side and not in the glass. I usually like my water plain, but even when I want a little flavor I want it to be my choice.

Ditto. I often have to ask for another glass without lemon/lime.

[glenn]

Thanks for the responses. While I agree with mostly everything Jason sez, it's not realistic to serve Poland Spring or other cheap brands. It's snobbish, but customers would be put off by being offered Canada Dry seltzer. Fiji is another one that doesn't appeal to the snobbery in people because it's in a plastic bottle. People expect boutique brands and seem accustomed to paying ridiculous prices [i consider anything above $6 ridiculous]. Pellegrino is my favorite sparkling, but I also like Sole. I forget, does Sole come with a screw top cap or do you need an opener?

I thought the responses about small bottles to be odd. Our restaurant serves them to placate the one diner at the table who wants bottled water and we charge just over half what we charge for a large bottle, even though it costs more like 75% of the cost of a large bottle. I would like to discontinue small bottles, they're not as profitable and there's a space issue.

What are the most popular brands among 3/4 star restaurants?

[Saffy]

Reading through this discussion I thought to myself .. sad ... that we cannot turn on the tap and find water that is drinkable in most places. I remember being in Florida and turning on the tap for a drink of water and wishing I had gone down to the swimming pool and scooped up a glass of that instead.. it would have been better. That was the first time in my more than 30 years that I have ever drunk bottled water.

WHY is the water so horrible?!!

I live in NZ where we are lucky enough to have good tap water and yet I see bottled water appearing on our supermarket shelves. Are humans developing the mentality that unless something is attractively packaged/marketed it can't be any good?

Gimme tap water any day.. as long as it is not from Florida

[macrosan]

Are humans developing the mentality that unless something is attractively packaged/marketed it can't be any good?

I think you have that exactly right, Saffy.

Bottled water gained an ascendancy in the UK about 15 years ago. That was a time when the nationalized water utility companies in Britain were on their last legs, totally lacking in investment, and the quality of water being delivered to British householders' taps was generally abysmal.

On top of that, or maybe because of that, regulations were introduced (I guess they were European Community regulations) to increase the amount of chlorine and fluorine in the water.

What we finished up with was bad looking, bad tasting tap water. It may or may not have been healthy water.

So millions of people started to boil tap water before drinking, then decided to look for bottled water. France, which has never had safely drinkable water and therefore had a well-established bottled water industry, ready and able to deliver.

Since those days, tap water in Britain seems to have returned to having good quality tap water, but now the marketing profession has taken over. There is a snob value in restaurants about paying for water. I have observed people, in a group at a table, when asked by the waiter if they want tap water, instantly look round at one another to see if anyone is listening, When they see someone else at the table looking at them, they immediately say "Oh no, bottled please". They never ask another person at the table if they want tap water.

I also struggle with the concept of fizzy water, or naturally carbonated as the marketeers insist on calling it. I mean, what is that ? Naturally carbonated ? Everyone knows that they're artificially injecting carbon dioxide into the stuff, even if it did naturally have some CO2 in it before they started. When was the last time you saw a fizzy mountain stream ? Fizziness is an appetite suppressant and causes flatulence. So why on earth would anyone want to drink fizzy water with a meal ? My guess is again that it's marketing that has created the demand, that it's considered elegant

I understand that some people don't trust the water utilities to deliver safe water to the taps, and so they drink bottled water out of fear. My own opinion is that the water bottling companies are just as likely to provide contaminated water.

[Kristian]

I live in NZ where we are lucky enough to have good tap water and yet I see bottled water appearing on our supermarket shelves.

This happens in Finland also. Our tap water is great compared to some countries', but for some reason there are people who buy it bottled, perhaps under the impression that it is healthier (you often see health fanatics with bottled water, which I take as a sign that they, as a group, are easily tricked into any new trend, as long as it's called healthy... ).

And, as Macrosan points out above, it's a question of prestige and/or snobbishness for some...

[Brija]

This happens in Finland also. Our tap water is great compared to some countries', but for some reason there are people who buy it bottled, perhaps under the impression that it is healthier (you often see health fanatics with bottled water, which I take as a sign that they, as a group, are easily tricked into any new trend, as long as it's called healthy... ).

Yes… but I think that this trend is not only about drinking bottled water, but drinking water in general. After all, it is healthy, bottled or tap. And there are people who buy bottled water very rarely, but fill the empty bottles with tap water…

[Jason Perlow]

It's snobbish, but customers would be put off by being offered Canada Dry seltzer.

Really? Canada Dry or Seagrams has always been on the menu at posh, exclusive country clubs in the NY area. It also comes in 16 ounce or 12 ounce glass bottles. I remember so from the times I've been invited to my Grandfather's club, Muttontown on Long Island, which is one of the oldest.

I'm not saying you should offer it exclusively, but I think you would be surprised if you said you had it along with Pellegrino or Perrier, you'd get a lot of customers asking for Canada Dry or Seagrams.

[Tonyfinch]

top 5...

cool cool water - beach boys

water from the wells of home - johnny cash

water on the brain - hollies w/the s. plotzkie doo dah band

water is wide - felix pappalardi

the water boys

Wade In The Water-Traditional

You Don't Miss Your Water(Till Your Well Runs Dry)-Otis Redding

I Asked Her For Water(She Gave Me Gasoline)-Howlin Wolf

Cool Clear Water (Keep A Movin' Dan)-Marty Robbins

Bridge Over Troubled Water-Simon&Garfunkel

Dirty Water- The Standells

I asked her for Perrier she gave me gasoline doesn't have quite the same ring to it somehow,does it.

[glenn]

It's snobbish, but customers would be put off by being offered Canada Dry seltzer.

Really? Canada Dry or Seagrams has always been on the menu at posh, exclusive country clubs in the NY area. It also comes in 16 ounce or 12 ounce glass bottles. I remember so from the times I've been invited to my Grandfather's club, Muttontown on Long Island, which is one of the oldest.

I'm not saying you should offer it exclusively, but I think you would be surprised if you said you had it along with Pellegrino or Perrier, you'd get a lot of customers asking for Canada Dry or Seagrams.

Hmmm, I'd like to hear other opinions on that. Personally, I'd love to put something cheap on the menu in addition to a boutique item, but we have a space issue plus I'm just not aware of it being done in nyc. And I think there's a reason for that, justified or not. I'm not so sure how a bottle of Canada Dry would fit in with elegant dishes and costly bottles of wine. I think it would leave the wrong impression. I think country clubs on LI are a different animal. Can you imagine Alain Doucasse offering Canada Dry? [though he's got a few more stars than us :)] But that's just my opinion which is derived from limited experience.

[nightscotsman]

Reading through this discussion I thought to myself .. sad ... that we cannot turn on the tap and find water that is drinkable in most places.

I do drink plenty of tap water and don't buy bottled still water, but I can't get sparkling water out of my tap.

Fizziness is an appetite suppressant

I've never heard about sparkling water being an appetite suppressant before. Can you link to the research or article where you read this fact? Seems like if this were true it would be shouted from every diet book on the shelf and we wouldn't need Weight Watchers.

and causes flatulence.

Never had this problem myself. I believe the gas is usually released by light burping rather than passed through the sytem to the other end.

[Rachel Perlow]

As Jason said, he always orders sparkling water, actually he usually asks for Pellegrino and then gets that or whatever other brand they offer. I have to stop the servers from giving it to me and specifically ask for regular ice water, as I don't like seltzer. The small bottle (8 oz?) is a complete waste of time, except for maybe at a bar. But in NYC if someone asks for club soda they usually get it from the soda spigot, right? The medium size is acceptable, but usually he orders the large bottle, and mostly finishes it by the end of the meal.

I, on the other hand, insist on tap water unless I am in an area where that would be unwise and will then want bottled still water. Locally, if the water tastes bad it will negatively affect my opinion of the restaurant. If a restauranteur knows his water tastes bad they should install a filter or only offer bottled water, complimentarily. There is a Chinese restaurant in our town that automatically pours carbonated water with a slice of lemon in the glass. I have to remember to ask for still water there, it's annoying. My other drink of choice in restaurants is iced tea, but if the tap water doesn't taste good I don't want to order that or even soda since they are made with the local tap water. In those situations juice is a good choice of beverage for me, or hopefully they offer cans or bottles of water, soda or tea.

Also, I know that large bottle of Pellegrino only costs about $1.50 in a supermarket (i.e. retail), so I really resent it when they charge over $5 for it in a restaurant. That's a higher markup than the wine list. We do not ask the price at the table, and rarely see it on the menu, but I usually check the bill because I'm curious about what they charged for it.

[Suzanne F]

1. No; I never order bottled water, so brands do not matter. Amendment: I did order bottled water once, at Alain Ducasse NY. I figured, what the hell, I'm already spending so much, I might as well...

2. No; see #1 above.

3. Oh, I know about which waters are trendier than others, but to me it's all ridiculous. The only aspect that makes a difference to me is if the place seems to assume that you want bottled BECAUSE bottled is trendier in general. Then my opinion of the establishment falls a notch or two.

4. No; n/a (see #1).

5. What is your favorite flat water? NYC DEP. sparkling? None; I dislike the taste of sparkling water, no matter what kind. Reasons: NYC tap water quite consistent; its flavor is neutral, so it does not interfere with my food or wine; most important, it is free and I'd rather spend my money on something I can't get at home. Sparkling water always tastes off to me.

6. I hate to pay for water. I mean, it's just WATER, for goodness' sake! (see #5 above).

7. s water on the menu at most establishment you frequent? Yes, definitely. Do you think it should be? Sure, there are always suckers who are willing to pay for it, and since the markup is so high, that helps keep other prices down for me.

8. General comments? If you ever ate with me and my husband, you'd understand my reluctance to pay for water; he can go through several glasses -- even a couple of liters -- in the course of a meal. Perhaps if we were in a location that does not have tasty (or neutral) water, I'd consider bottled; but in NYC it's no necessity. Also: others here have already mentioned the perception that bottled water is somehow "healthier." I perceive it as far less likely to be safe and healthy, because I do not know the standards and conditions under which it is drawn, processed, and bottled. Finally: since one is very often served machine-made, tap-water ice cubes in one's bottled water, what's the point?

9. Since I'm not looking for it, I rarely notice whether or not the price is on the menu, nor do I ask. If I ever were to order it, though, you can be sure that I would want to know BEFORE I ordered it, if only to be able to check the bill later. Oddly enough, I almost never ask the price of specials.

[Rachel Perlow]

I agree with Suzanne on everything. I'm curious the reasons why someone would order bottled sparkling water in an area where the tap water is good? If you want sparkling water, just order club soda or seltzer. If there is any charge, it would be the price of a glass of coke.

[nightscotsman]

If you want sparkling water, just order club soda or seltzer.

Seltzer would be fine, but club soda is another story. It usually has lots of sodium in it and tastes like baking soda to me.

[Rachel Perlow]

I didn't know there was a difference.

[glenn]

The small bottle (8 oz?) is a complete waste of time, except for maybe at a bar. But in NYC if someone asks for club soda they usually get it from the soda spigot, right?

I am surprised by some of the comments about small bottles. As I said earlier, we would prefer not to carry small bottles due to space limitations and the markup is not as high. The entire purpose of our restaurant offering it is for the one diner at a table who may want bottled water but not a large bottle. A small bottle is just over 16 ounces or 1/2 liter. And yes, if someone asked for club soda, they'd get it from the fountain.

Also, I know that large bottle of Pellegrino only costs about $1.50 in a supermarket (i.e. retail), so I really resent it when they charge over $5 for it in a restaurant. That's a higher markup than the wine list. We do not ask the price at the table, and rarely see it on the menu, but I usually check the bill because I'm curious about what they charged for it.

I know a few years ago Pellegrino cost about $1.10 wholesale. Don't be so sure though, that the water markup is higher than wine in all cases. House wines (served by the glass) are often marked up 5 times, while the top wines are often marked up only 2X or less. How 'bout soda and ice tea? Do you have any idea how much that's marked up? If you did, you would never order it again :). Having said that, I am in complete agreement with you, personally that is. It's a psychological thing and it pisses me off to see a restaurant mark up water 5 times and more. That is the reason I never order bottled water. I truly enjoy Pellegrino, but not enough to pay the kind of money places charge for it. But I'll pay $3 for a soda that cost pennies. Go figure.

Oh, I know about which waters are trendier than others, but to me it's all ridiculous.  The only aspect that makes a difference to me is if the place seems to assume that you want bottled BECAUSE bottled is trendier in general.  Then my opinion of the establishment falls a notch or two.

Good point and precisely the one I'm arguing with management now. I want to switch from Voss to Pellegrino and Evian. Very boring, but cheaper than Voss and they're solid standbys, the Chevrolets of water. Voss is too chi chi for me, and I hate the bottle, mostly because that's what makes it more expensive.

7. s water on the menu at most establishment you frequent?  Yes, definitely.  Do you think it should be?  Sure, there are always suckers who are willing to pay for it, and since the markup is so high, that helps keep other prices down for me.

Slight misunderstanding and poor choice of words on my part. I didn't mean to ask if restaurants should carry bottled water, but do they and should they list it on the menu.

9. Since I'm not looking for it, I rarely notice whether or not the price is on the menu, nor do I ask.  If I ever were to order it, though, you can be sure that I would want to know BEFORE I ordered it, if only to be able to check the bill later.  Oddly enough, I almost never ask the price of specials.

I find it interesting how all things related to water gets people's attention. Logically, it makes no sense to concern yourself with the price of water and not other items, such as specials. I'm no different, and I suspect many others act similarly.

I agree with Suzanne on everything.   I'm curious the reasons why someone would order bottled sparkling water in an area where the tap water is good? If you want sparkling water, just order club soda or seltzer. If there is any charge, it would be the price of a glass of coke.

Well, I'm far from a connoisseur, but even I can tell the difference between seltzer and Pellegrino :).

Many thanks for the responses.

[glenn]

Seltzer would be fine, but club soda is another story. It usually has lots of sodium in it and tastes like baking soda to me.

I thought it was the other way around. In any case, seltzer is way too carbonated for me, though I would gladly start drinking it again if I could get the soda man to deliver those cool old fashioned selter bottles. And who said appearances didn't matter? :)