The "Best" Dry Martini

[Duvel]

2 minutes ago, paulraphael said:

He doesn't; he's demonstrates that the mass of ice is irrelevant, assuming there's enough of it.

 

The total surface area of the ice is relevant, but only to the speed of chilling. Not to the final temperature or dilution.

Sorry, I do not know how to explain it any better. Please forget about his premise of all ice being at 0 oC (that is seemingly true for the bar environment, but not a law of nature). 
 

Of course the amount of ice matters, and no - unless you are in a mass transfer limited environment - there is no such thing as “sufficient ice”, because every gram of ice you add brings in additional cooling capacity*. Period.
 

The more you put, the more cooling capacity you have. If you put really a lot and you start out cold, the ice won’t warm up sufficiently to even melt. And if you stay below the melting point of ice (think about it), how can be the phase transition enthalpy be the major (or sole) contributor to cool your drink. How can something that doesn’t melt cool via a phase transition ?

—-

*actually heat capacity, but that might confuse people.

[Duvel]

23 minutes ago, paulraphael said:

 

I'm not 100% sure I understand your point here. It's true that once the cocktail reaches its equilibrium point (around -5°C for the drinks of the strength used in DA's experiments there will be no more melting. And there will likewise be no more chilling. 

 

Are you talking about what happens when you put extra cold ice into a cocktail? The experiments address that. You get a very small additional amount of cooling from the colder ice. 1/2 calorie per degree for each gram of ice, vs. the 80 calories per gram you get from the ice melting. This ends up making a minute difference. 

You are stuck in the cocktail shaker. Let’s do the Duveltini experiment 2.0 (extreme case, just to demonstrate):

 

Dewar vessel, temperature equilibrium, 1000 g of ice, -20 oC. We add 10 g of a suitable alcoholic drink with 20 oC.

 

What will happen ? 
 

1) Will the ice melt:

 

Nope. Heat introduced into the system by the drink is not sufficient to raise the temperature above its melting point. 
 

2) Will there be any dilution ?

 

(Apart from some surface phenomena) Nope. Ice doesn’t melt significantly. Truth is, there will be some, but it is not significant.

 

3) How does the content of the Dewar vessel cool the drink ?

 

Thermal mass transfer. Nothing magical, no phase transition, just plain heat transfer - just when you put a pot of water on a hot stove. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Duvel (log)

[paulraphael]

16 minutes ago, Duvel said:

Sorry, I do not know how to explain it any better. Please forget about his premise of all ice being at 0 oC (that is seemingly true for the bar environment, but not a law of nature). 
 

Of course the amount of ice matters, and no - unless you are in a mass transfer limited environment - there is no such thing as “sufficient ice”, because every gram of ice you add brings in additional cooling capacity*. Period.
 

The more you put, the more cooling capacity you have. If you put really a lot and you start out cold, the ice won’t warm up sufficiently to even melt. And if you stay below the melting point of ice (think about it), how can be the phase transition enthalpy be the major (or sole) contributor to cool your drink. How can something that doesn’t melt cool via a phase transition ?

—-

*actually heat capacity, but that might confuse people.

 

Now I understand what you're saying. But it goes against the experimental evidence.

 

I did address the possibility of ice being colder than 0° ... the basic physics and the experiments demonstrate that this makes a negligible difference in the glass. 

 

[Edited to add ... I just saw your post describing the experiment.]

 

Of course, if you contrive a situation with huge amounts of ice, and it's much colder than the equilibrium temperature, then that 1/2 calorie per degree per gram would be able to make a significant difference. But is this not relevant to anyone making cocktails!

 

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by paulraphael (log)

[Duvel]

6 minutes ago, paulraphael said:

But is this not relevant to anyone making cocktails!

I like that we both come to the same conclusion 🤗

 

Let’s leave it at that in the certainty that craft cocktails and theoretical thermodynamics meet only in harmony if both are applied to the same person. Stat.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Duvel (log)

[paulraphael]

2 minutes ago, Duvel said:

I like that we both come to the same conclusion 🤗

 

Let’s leave it that in the certainty that craft cocktails and theoretical thermodynamics meet only in harmony if both are applied to the same person. Stat.

 

After this many posts on amateur thermodynamics, I need a cocktail.

[weinoo]

1 hour ago, paulraphael said:

 

After this many posts on amateur thermodynamics, I need a cocktail.

 

Make sure it's cold enough.

 

I have a question about the "experiments."  Talking about cocktails, even if the shaker, jigger, ice, etc. etc. are all as cold as they can be in a home/bar environment, don't they start heating up immediately, when they're brought out of the environment which made them so cold?

 

And (somewhat) finally: I've had cocktails mixed by everyone mentioned in this thread (and then some), and all I can say is that I wouldn't have sent a one of them back for being over diluted, too cold, too warm, whatever. And I can't say that for the thousands  hundreds tens of cocktails I've ordered in places where the skill is less than optimum. Or the ice is shitty. There's a reason to order bourbon neat, soda water back.

[weinoo]

Oh, and (somewhat) finally:  I hope we can all agree that, in general, the ideal dilution for a cocktail with 3 - 3.5 oz. of liquid falls somewhere in the range of 25% - 30%.  

 

That way, it fits nicely into proper (chilled) glassware.

[paulraphael]

3 hours ago, weinoo said:

I have a question about the "experiments."  Talking about cocktails, even if the shaker, jigger, ice, etc. etc. are all as cold as they can be in a home/bar environment, don't they start heating up immediately, when they're brought out of the environment which made them so cold?

 

DA's experiments show that rocks do a pretty good job of keeping things cold. The choice is a few smaller rocks, which will keep a drink colder, but dilute it faster, or a big handsome rock, which will let it warm more but will keep it stronger longer. 

 

For drinks served up, he's a believer in making them small so they stay cold as long as you're drinking them. Personally, I'd rather have a bigger drink and take my chances. Or drink it faster.

 

I always make my negronis on the rocks, with a couple of ice cubes in a chilled glass. I think that drink does fine with extra dilution, but it needs to be really cold. Whisky drinks I don't mind warmer, but I'd rather avoid dilution. I make old fashionds with a 2" cube.

[haresfur]

On 2/4/2022 at 8:52 AM, Duvel said:

How do you calculate the dilution imparted by shaking/stirring it with ice ?

 

I think the idea is to get the consistency in the pour and then dilute appropriately. There is still some bartender skill left in the equation.

[weinoo]

7 hours ago, paulraphael said:

For drinks served up, he's a believer in making them small so they stay cold as long as you're drinking them. Personally, I'd rather have a bigger drink and take my chances. Or drink it faster.

 

I don't know if an 8 oz. Martini is really the way to go.  It'll get you there fast, however.

 

5 hours ago, haresfur said:

think the idea is to get the consistency in the pour and then dilute appropriately. There is still some bartender skill left in the equation.

 

If what you mean by consistency is consistency in measurements, it's why most serious cocktail bars use jiggers. Certainly all the good ones.

[haresfur]

7 hours ago, weinoo said:

 

I don't know if an 8 oz. Martini is really the way to go.  It'll get you there fast, however.

 

 

If what you mean by consistency is consistency in measurements, it's why most serious cocktail bars use jiggers. Certainly all the good ones.

 

I mean consistency in getting the right pour then go from there on getting the right dilution. I don't care how the bartender measures the volume as long as they get it right.

Edited February 6, 2022 by haresfur (log)

[weinoo]

2 hours ago, haresfur said:

I don't care how the bartender measures the volume as long as they get it right.

 

So free pouring works for the bartenders you know?  My point is that there's basically one way to get accurate measurements in a bar environment, and that's by measuring, not free pouring.

[haresfur]

4 hours ago, weinoo said:

 

So free pouring works for the bartenders you know?  My point is that there's basically one way to get accurate measurements in a bar environment, and that's by measuring, not free pouring.

 

Murray Stenson does (or did - not sure what he's up to) free pour. He's pretty well regarded.

[lindag]

I've never tried Hendrick's (cucumber) gin, does it make a good martini?

[Duvel]

48 minutes ago, lindag said:

I've never tried Hendrick's (cucumber) gin, does it make a good martini?

If you leave out the vermouth, yes !

[blue_dolphin]

58 minutes ago, lindag said:

I've never tried Hendrick's (cucumber) gin, does it make a good martini?

 

Pick up a little 50 ml bottle and see what you think.  If I want a martini, I want something with more juniper but a martini is probably the best cocktail to let the gin flavors shine.

[Duvel]

On 2/5/2022 at 2:28 PM, weinoo said:

How about a Japanese-inspired Martini, by one of my favorites, and easily a top 5 Bartender, Kenta Goto...

 

 

 

https://fb.watch/a_cLYSvVya/

Made a version of this tonight (before he goes public tomorrow): Roku Gin, nice semi-sweet Junmai Daiginjo, Hinoki bitters and a quick pickled ginger slice as garnish. Not bad … not bad at all ☺️

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Duvel (log)

[weinoo]

That sounds very good!

[Duvel]

13 minutes ago, weinoo said:

That sounds very good!

Yeap - thanks for the link ! And truth to be told - the sake does work pretty well. None of these slightly bitter, nutmeg-y overtones if vermouth. Clean sweetness, with a bit of a starchy, rice-y touch from the sake and a straight punch from the gin. And the Hinoki bitters taste like you are on a rainy day in a temple in Kyoto. Hard to describe, but once you’ve experienced that it actually tastes like it. 
 

Good indeed and a perfect opportunity to bring my Fuji-san glas out 🤗

Edited February 7, 2022 by Duvel (log)

[weinoo]

1 hour ago, Duvel said:

Yeap - thanks for the link ! And truth to be told - the sake does work pretty well. None of these slightly bitter, nutmeg-y overtones if vermouth. Clean sweetness, with a bit of a starchy, rice-y touch from the sake and a straight punch from the gin. And the Hinoki bitters taste like you are on a rainy day in a temple in Kyoto. Hard to describe, but once you’ve experienced that it actually tastes like it. 
 

Good indeed and a perfect opportunity to bring my Fuji-san glas out 🤗

 

Nice description.

 

And all you need to go along is Kenta's Kombu Celery...

 

5 celery stalks, strings removed, cut into 3x1/2-inch sticks

1 tablespoon furikake

1 tablespoon toasted sesame oil

1 teaspoon soy sauce

Toasted sesame seeds (for serving)

Toss celery, furikake, sesame oil, and soy sauce in a small bowl to coat. Chill uncovered 30 minutes to let flavors meld. Serve topped with sesame seeds.

 

 

[Duvel]

That sounds pretty awesome - it’s on my list 🙏

Edited February 7, 2022 by Duvel (log)

[AAQuesada]

On 2/7/2022 at 9:15 AM, lindag said:

I've never tried Hendrick's (cucumber) gin, does it make a good martini?

Hendrick's is a banging G&T gin, don't love it as much in a Martini. just my opinion. 

[lindag]

8 minutes ago, AAQuesada said:

Hendrick's is a banging G&T gin, don't love it as much in a Martini. just my opinion. 

I want to make this cocktail.

Have to get the package store first!

 

Fleur de Lis Cucumber Gin Cocktail

3 slices cucumber (2 to 3 slices)
1/2 ounce lime juice
1/4 ounce St. Germain elderflower liquor
1 1/4 ounces Hendricks gin (or other cucumber based gin)
1/2 ounce simple syrup
3 ounces ginger ale
1 cup ice
Lime wedge for garnish

Place cucumber slices in a cocktail shaker.
Use a muddler or the handle of a wooden spoon to crush the cucumbers.
Add lime juice, elderflower liquor, gin, simple syrup, and ice.

Shake for about 30 seconds.
Pour the drink into a cocktail glass.
Top with ginger ale.
Garnish with a cucumber slice or lime wedge.

 

 

[Craig E]

6 hours ago, lindag said:

I want to make this cocktail.

Have to get the package store first!

 

Fleur de Lis Cucumber Gin Cocktail

3 slices cucumber (2 to 3 slices)
1/2 ounce lime juice
1/4 ounce St. Germain elderflower liquor
1 1/4 ounces Hendricks gin (or other cucumber based gin)
1/2 ounce simple syrup
3 ounces ginger ale
1 cup ice
Lime wedge for garnish

Place cucumber slices in a cocktail shaker.
Use a muddler or the handle of a wooden spoon to crush the cucumbers.
Add lime juice, elderflower liquor, gin, simple syrup, and ice.

Shake for about 30 seconds.
Pour the drink into a cocktail glass.
Top with ginger ale.
Garnish with a cucumber slice or lime wedge.

 

 

Those are tasty flavors together. I'd think with the sweetness of the ginger ale, the simple syrup might not be needed.

[weinoo]

14 hours ago, AAQuesada said:

Hendrick's is a banging G&T gin, don't love it as much in a Martini. just my opinion. 

 

I'm pretty wed to Beefeater or Plymouth for Martinis.  The other night, at a lovely restaurant bar, I ordered a wet Martini. Lots of gins on the back bar, but the first thing the bartender asked me was if Beefeater was OK. Indeed. Olives on the side.

 

And @Duvel - you might like this restaurant...as it fashions itself a Basque Taverna...http://www.ernestosnyc.com/