Troubleshooting Tempering

[Rajala]

Thanks for the feedback.

 

It's Orelys I'm playing around with. Sorry for not being clear. The viscosity is extremely low, so it's not that it set too fast. Maybe it's not over tempered? Maybe I'm confusing the terms here.

 

But if the problem is that it's super fluid, maybe Kerrys advice is the one to follow?

[Rajala]

8 hours ago, keychris said:

time to lose your thermometer and do it by feel

 

 Only partly kidding - when I was taught how to temper, they banned all thermometers from the kitchen so we had to know what the chocolate behaved like at each stage. You can feel it thickening up, you know that's when you need to get it back in the bowl to head back to working temperature 

 

Hehe. I should at least try the "bowl" method, or whatever we should call it. It's basically taking 2/3 and pour that on my countertop, bring it down in temperature and pour it back to the bowl and it should be tempered?

[martin0642]

2 hours ago, Rajala said:

 

Hehe. I should at least try the "bowl" method, or whatever we should call it. It's basically taking 2/3 and pour that on my countertop, bring it down in temperature and pour it back to the bowl and it should be tempered?

 

 

That's the traditional method of tabling I referred to.....that would be my choice if you're going to table (as opposed to cooling it all and then using a microwave). 

[Rajala]

1 minute ago, martin0642 said:

 

 

That's the traditional method of tabling I referred to.....that would be my choice if you're going to table (as opposed to cooling it all and then using a microwave). 

 

Yeah, the only reason I'm doing it the way I'm doing it is because someone showed it to me and it's been working perfectly until just now.

[Rajala]

Okay. I tried it again, thinking about what Kerry said; 25°. However, it started to get a little bit thicker at around 26° so I thought that was enough, brought it back up to 28°. By the time I had filled the mould. I could hold it upside down without any chocolate dropping down. Like it was a meringue.

 

Seriously, this product is my archenemy. Any suggestions?

 

While waiting for your feedback, I'm going to mould with something else, just to make sure that I haven't lost all my skills here.

[Kerry Beal]

2 hours ago, Rajala said:

Okay. I tried it again, thinking about what Kerry said; 25°. However, it started to get a little bit thicker at around 26° so I thought that was enough, brought it back up to 28°. By the time I had filled the mould. I could hold it upside down without any chocolate dropping down. Like it was a meringue.

 

Seriously, this product is my archenemy. Any suggestions?

 

While waiting for your feedback, I'm going to mould with something else, just to make sure that I haven't lost all my skills here.

The chocolate is always the boss! 

 

How sure are you of the accuracy of your thermometer?

 

 

Edited October 7, 2018 by Kerry Beal (log)

[Rajala]

47 minutes ago, Kerry Beal said:

The chocolate is always the boss! 

 

How sure are you of the accuracy of your thermometer?

 

 

 

 

Never had any issues until now. So it should be fairly accurate. I’m thinking that it’s still a little too warm in my apartment. 24 degrees.

[Kerry Beal]

1 minute ago, Rajala said:

 

Never had any issues until now. So it should be fairly accurate. I’m thinking that it’s still a little too warm in my apartment. 24 degrees.

Have you any way of testing the accuracy of your thermometer?

 

 

[Rajala]

I could put it up my arm pit and see if it’s around 37 degrees? 🤣

 

In all seriousness, no. Just tried with milk chocolate and that didn’t temper correctly either. I’m blaming the temp in the kitchen. Will try dark chocolate tomorrow, just because.

[MelissaH]

Can you try it with boiling water? You can correct for atmospheric pressure.

[Rajala]

That would probably be the easiest way.

 

I tempered some dark chocolate yesterday, close to perfection. So not sure what the issue is with white and milk for me. I'm probably out of shape due to not doing any chocolate work since May?  

Just need to practice more I guess.

[Rajala]

Okay, got a question; if the chocolate doesn't come out easily from the mould - what should I do next time I temper with the same kind of chocolate? Let it get a little bit lower in temperature, before brought up to working temperature? (I know I need to learn to do it without a thermometer, but that's in the future)  

 

The milk chocolate I'm working with at the moment seems to take forever to set - but it's snappy and shiny when it do. I'm not sure why I have so many issues with this. Dark chocolate works every time. 🤔

[Kerry Beal]

Take milk down to 25 before reheating to working temp of around 29-30.

 

milk takes longer to crystallize because of the effect of milk fat on the cocoa butter 

 

 

[Rajala]

Yeah, but it feels like it takes way too long. I'm going slightly lower next time then. 25 as you suggest.  

[J.Green]

Can you temper chocolate that has bloomed?

 

I've seen some responses from friends that have said to melt down bloomed chocolate to 115 and then use a new 'seed.'

But haven't tried it yet.

 

Any thoughts?

Thanks

[Kerry Beal]

3 minutes ago, J.Green said:

Can you temper chocolate that has bloomed?

 

I've seen some responses from friends that have said to melt down bloomed chocolate to 115 and then use a new 'seed.'

But haven't tried it yet.

 

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Yes you can - melt it down and reseed. Is it milk, white or dark? Temperature you reseed to will depend.

 

 

[Jim D.]

When tempered chocolate starts thickening as it is used, the first remedy usually suggested is to raise the temperature a bit (but not too high so as to melt the Type V crystals). The next remedy I try is to raise the temp above the melting point of Type V for a while to melt some of those excess crystals, then lower it back to working temp. My question is why the first remedy works.  It is not melting crystals, so what is it actually doing that thins out the chocolate?  Thanks for any insights.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Jim D. (log)

[Rajala]

Perfect, this was on top when I got here. Had a question, only to realize that Kerry already answered it earlier, when I asked for another chocolate. I'm working with Cacao Barry's "Ghana", and it's like sour milk when melted.   Will go down all the way to 25 to see how that will work for me.

 

Good question Jim, can't help you though.  

 

[Kerry Beal]

4 hours ago, Jim D. said:

When tempered chocolate starts thickening as it is used, the first remedy usually suggested is to raise the temperature a bit (but not too high so as to melt the Type V crystals). The next remedy I try is to raise the temp above the melting point of Type V for a while to melt some of those excess crystals, then lower it back to working temp. My question is why the first remedy works.  It is not melting crystals, so what is it actually doing that thins out the chocolate?  Thanks for any insights.

 

Once over tempered - raising the temperature to 32.5 for milk chocolate or 34.5 for dark will thin it out - I suspect it is happening because some crystals melt out and also that it is just less viscous at the higher temperature. 

[keychris]

It also depends how you're applying the heat - if you're using a heat gun, you're generating a very high localised heat which melts the crystals in that area, but not the rest of them, then you stir and melt more, etc.

[Jim D.]

35 minutes ago, keychris said:

It also depends how you're applying the heat - if you're using a heat gun, you're generating a very high localised heat which melts the crystals in that area, but not the rest of them, then you stir and melt more, etc.

I'm using a Chocovision Delta tempering machine. I raise the temp, then stir as it increases, so insofar as I can judge, the temp is more or less uniform in the bowl. There is a noticeable difference in viscosity of the chocolate after a short time at the higher temperature. 

[martin0642]

I think there's more than one thing going on here - as Keychris said, if you use a heat gun then you are melting out all the crystals in a very localised area - so that thins the chocolate out, stirring melts more but the majority of the chocolate is still in temper/contains the desired crystals so overall it's in temper (as long as you stir well of course).

 

But alongside that (and this probably explains the tempering machine better) - as I understand the science, even well tempered chocolate contains some of the other crystal forms. Remember, we can temper chocolate with just 1% by weight of seeding cocoa butter (ie Mycryo, Kerry's splendid cocoa butter machine ). Not every single crystal in the finished product will be the Type V crystals. Whilst the other forms won't leave it setting with a sharp snap - they will contribute to it thickening. They also melt out easily at the higher temperatures.

 

I may be entirely wrong here....but that's my understanding of it!

[Jim D.]

3 hours ago, martin0642 said:

But alongside that (and this probably explains the tempering machine better) - as I understand the science, even well tempered chocolate contains some of the other crystal forms. Remember, we can temper chocolate with just 1% by weight of seeding cocoa butter (ie Mycryo, Kerry's splendid cocoa butter machine ). Not every single crystal in the finished product will be the Type V crystals. Whilst the other forms won't leave it setting with a sharp snap - they will contribute to it thickening. They also melt out easily at the higher temperatures.

 

An interesting theory. In support of the fact that we can't know what crystals are actually present, I had another puzzling experience recently:  Again I was using the Delta machine but wasn't paying attention to the level of chocolate remaining in the bowl. After it sank below the level of the thermometer that controls the heat, I noticed that the shells were taking longer to crystallize. I checked the temp of the chocolate in the bowl, and it was well over 100F/38C. I was certain that the finished product would be a disaster. But such was not the case--the finished chocolates released without incident and there was no sign of untempered chocolate. If I were just beginning to work with chocolate, I might foolishly ask, "How can this be?" -- but by now I know better than to expect definitive answers.

[Kerry Beal]

3 hours ago, martin0642 said:

I think there's more than one thing going on here - as Keychris said, if you use a heat gun then you are melting out all the crystals in a very localised area - so that thins the chocolate out, stirring melts more but the majority of the chocolate is still in temper/contains the desired crystals so overall it's in temper (as long as you stir well of course).

 

But alongside that (and this probably explains the tempering machine better) - as I understand the science, even well tempered chocolate contains some of the other crystal forms. Remember, we can temper chocolate with just 1% by weight of seeding cocoa butter (ie Mycryo, Kerry's splendid cocoa butter machine ). Not every single crystal in the finished product will be the Type V crystals. Whilst the other forms won't leave it setting with a sharp snap - they will contribute to it thickening. They also melt out easily at the higher temperatures.

 

I may be entirely wrong here....but that's my understanding of it!

That seems to make very good sense. And might explain part of why when very thick overtempered chocolate is left in a bowl it often looks like crap the next day in the middle. That and the latent heat of crystallization at work.

[martin0642]

I've been digging around a it more (mostly to avoid doing actual work...) and it seems that.....

 

When we temper chocolate properly; we should only have Type V crystals in there. However - as chocolate cools in various machines/bowls etc....it will likely cool/heat unevenly. This is what can lead to the formation of other crystal types. So basically...as we already know...stir stir stir stir....no really...stir it. 

 

I'm guessing even the best home tempering machine will be prone to uneven temperatures, at least under some conditions (ie: Jim D's situation above). 

 

Also - as we also know.........chocolate has yet to read any of the chemistry books and will behave exactly as it chooses, no matter what the "science" says