Switching to commercial convection oven?

[brooksms]

Hi! I'm finally starting a baking business and will be going to the commercial kitchen today to test times/temps for my xl 6 oz cookies. In my home electric oven I've had the best results with 380 F for 18 minutes. Any less time and they're too raw in the center. They spread more than I'd like at lower temps. It's difficult to get the center cooked enough without over-drying the outside at higher temps. The general recommendation when switching to convection is 25 degrees less in combination with a reduction in baking time of 10-25%. Any opinion on this? It is so hard to tell when the centers are perfectly done. A minute or two makes the difference between total mush and just right. Should I put empty pans on the other levels of the oven to simulate how it will be when baking a lot at once? Any advice is appreciated! I have an event to bake for in one week and the kitchen is rented hourly so there's not much time to experiment. My biggest fear is someone saying the cookies seem dry or raw! 

[chileheadmike]

Given the constraints, you  may want to cook without the fan going. All of the convection ovens I've used would bake conventionally. Sounds like you  don't really have time to experiment. 

[brooksms]

1 hour ago, chileheadmike said:

Given the constraints, you  may want to cook without the fan going. All of the convection ovens I've used would bake conventionally. Sounds like you  don't really have time to experiment. 

 

I'll need to bake a lot of cookies though, possibly 300. I don't think baking conventionally with one tray at a time as I have been will work for that, especially since I have to pay hourly for the kitchen. I'd lose all of my profit taking forever lol!

[chileheadmike]

Conventional simply means that the fan isn't on. The ovens have multiple racks. You  don't have to bake on sheet pan at a time. I'd rotate the pans to different racks and turn them once or twice during baking using convection or not. These ovens tend to have hot spots. 

[pastrygirl]

1 hour ago, chileheadmike said:

 All of the convection ovens I've used would bake conventionally. 

 

Not my experience. My current kitchen has an electric convection oven with no options for the fan, other convection ovens have had the option of high or low fan.  Commercial baking ovens are different from the home ovens with the option of convection. 

 

Unfortunately I think you’ll just need to do some test baking to get used to your rental ovens. Start with just a few cookies till you’re happy, then do a full sheet and see if it needs adjusting. Mike is right in that no oven bakes perfectly evenly. Top rack may be hotter, or the back corner, etc. Always rotate!

 

Will you be able to get a better deal on space as you use more hours?  If you’re already worried about test batches eating up the profit, maybe you need to charge more. Or make a 5 oz cookie, that’s still huge!

Edited September 28, 2018 by pastrygirl (log)

[chileheadmike]

All of the commercial convection ovens I used had a switch for conventional/convection. Of course, it's been a few decades since I worked in a restaurant kitchen. I didn't that that would have changed.

 

I stand corrected. 

[brooksms]

I thought one of the main benefits to convection was not having to rotate lol! Won't leaving the door open to rotate and switch shelves let out a lot of heat?

[pastrygirl]

2 hours ago, chileheadmike said:

All of the commercial convection ovens I used had a switch for conventional/convection. Of course, it's been a few decades since I worked in a restaurant kitchen. I didn't that that would have changed.

 

I stand corrected. 

 

If you were a line cook and the ovens you used were the type under the cook-top, those may be different from the free-standing baker's ovens.  I used to bake in an old gas wolf range's oven and though the fan did have a separate switch, I honestly never tried baking without it on (if memory serves I think it wouldn't ignite without the fan on). 

 

What sorts of things would you prefer to bake/cook without the fan?  As a pastry chef the only thing I used the still oven for was baked custards like creme brulee, so I'm used to all convection all the time.  Now on the rare occasion that I bake something at home, it takes foreeeeeever.

 

2 hours ago, brooksms said:

I thought one of the main benefits to convection was not having to rotate lol! Won't leaving the door open to rotate and switch shelves let out a lot of heat?

 

They might be a little more even than still ovens but they all have their quirks.  Generally when the door opens the fan automatically shuts off so you're not blowing tons of heat out.  It should only take a few seconds to rotate a pan, don't sweat it.

[chileheadmike]

They were blodget free standing ovens. We always had the fan on. I was just suggesting that if the OP had never used one there may be the option to use it without the fan. 

[brooksms]

2 hours ago, pastrygirl said:

 

If you were a line cook and the ovens you used were the type under the cook-top, those may be different from the free-standing baker's ovens.  I used to bake in an old gas wolf range's oven and though the fan did have a separate switch, I honestly never tried baking without it on (if memory serves I think it wouldn't ignite without the fan on). 

 

What sorts of things would you prefer to bake/cook without the fan?  As a pastry chef the only thing I used the still oven for was baked custards like creme brulee, so I'm used to all convection all the time.  Now on the rare occasion that I bake something at home, it takes foreeeeeever.

 

 

They might be a little more even than still ovens but they all have their quirks.  Generally when the door opens the fan automatically shuts off so you're not blowing tons of heat out.  It should only take a few seconds to rotate a pan, don't sweat it.

 

Thank you! On my way to testing now. Fingers crossed it goes well!

[JeanneCake]

where are you located?  Anywhere near Boston MA?

[brooksms]

14 hours ago, JeanneCake said:

where are you located?  Anywhere near Boston MA?

 

Unfortunately nowhere near there! Thank you though. The testing was terrible! The commercial kitchen oven is so old and the glass so dirty I could barely see inside.  It's gas so I was breathing that in the whole time. The line on the temp knob was drawn on by sharpie and off by 25 degrees. Even reducing the temp I use at home by 60 degrees and cutting the time, my cookies got way too brown before the centers weren't done. I tried various times/temps and it always happened. I suppose I could try cutting down on the baking soda and try again. However, aside from these xl thick cookies, I want to offer a wide variety of kinds especially for the holidays. It doesn't seem practical to do extensive testing for every single recipe. How will I know how much to reduce the temp for each one? Is this how all convection ovens are or was this one just difficult?

[gfweb]

You were breathing in gas?

[pastrygirl]

2 hours ago, brooksms said:

It doesn't seem practical to do extensive testing for every single recipe. How will I know how much to reduce the temp for each one? 

 

Once you get to know the oven and how to adjust from your usual times & temps, those adjustments should apply across the board. If it runs hot, it will run hot for everything. 

 

 

 

[brooksms]

1 hour ago, gfweb said:

You were breathing in gas?

 

The oven is attached to a large gas stovetop which appeared to be on very low. I was told the whole unit has to be turned on like this to turn on the oven. Obviously the oven door was closed but maybe the exhaust isn't very strong? Idk...it smelled like gas. 

[brooksms]

1 hour ago, pastrygirl said:

 

Once you get to know the oven and how to adjust from your usual times & temps, those adjustments should apply across the board. If it runs hot, it will run hot for everything. 

 

Gotcha! So it seems I needed to lower the oven by 50-55 degrees and bake 28% less time. I guess that isn't too far off from what should be expected. I cut some baking soda from my recipe and am going back now to try again. 

 

[pastrygirl]

Good luck!  Commissaries aren't always the best-taken care of - go ahead and clean that oven window so you can watch your cookies.

 

Are you in a state that does not have a cottage food law to allow some home baking?  You've probably already considered it, but I'll throw it out there anyway...

http://www.pickyourown.org/CottageFoodLawsByState.htm

[andiesenji]

I had a commercial GAS convection oven - Blodgett - for quite a few years.   I used the convection when I had all 7 trays in use.

(it was a 10-tray Blodgett but the space for the three bottom trays was taken up by an add-on steam fixture)

 

For most cookies, pastries without thick fruit fillings,  I had the temp set at 350°F + convection to get EVEN heating,  and 8 minutes to bake.

For larger, thicker cookies, the thick gingerbread, same temp 10-12 minutes - I always did a  test run first.

Most important was to bake all the same TYPE of cookies at the same time.

the coconut macaroon cookies which were WETTER, took longer.  Some were baked at a lower temp for longer.  

I had to experiment because the commercial formulas I had at the time  or the  "home type"  cookies that I converted to larger batches  did not have the times that I required.  

And when I first got the oven, the temperature calibration did not hold and I had to get the technician out several times until he added a sensor that did the trick.  After that it only needed calibration  once a year - except after the '94 earthquake when it was apparently as shaken as I was.

When I sold the Blodgett the buyer had all the burners cleaned, new sensors and of course re-calibrated after the move.  I haven't spoken to him for a few years but he was able to start baking, using my formulas with no problems. 

 

[brooksms]

10 hours ago, pastrygirl said:

Good luck!  Commissaries aren't always the best-taken care of - go ahead and clean that oven window so you can watch your cookies.

 

Are you in a state that does not have a cottage food law to allow some home baking?  You've probably already considered it, but I'll throw it out there anyway...

http://www.pickyourown.org/CottageFoodLawsByState.htm

 

Unfortunately I have dogs so that's not an option. I wish I could! I'll definitely be cleaning the glass lol. Is it possible to pick your brain about the leavening in my cookies? At home I was happy with 1 tsp baking soda + 1/4 tsp baking powder for 332g flour. With the commercial oven set to 325 instead of 380, they were too dark at all baking times. I reduced to 3/4 tsp soda + 1/4 tsp baking powder. The first picture is one from that recipe. It looked nice at 14 mins but the center needed more time. More time = too much color. I tried again with 5/8 tsp soda + 1/4 tsp b. powder. As you can see, a couple of the large cookies cracked. I assume this means I need to add baking powder, right? Maybe 1/2 tsp soda + 1/2-5/8 tsp baking powder? Thoughts? I wish I had more time to experiment but I'm hoping to make an event next weekend. Feeling the pressure! 

Edited September 30, 2018 by brooksms (log)

[JeanneCake]

FWIW I think the #18 cookie looks fine; I wouldn't reject it if I were buying.  Sometimes I think we too often undercook pastry in this country - golden brown is appealing .  I hope the rent you're paying takes into consideration the type and condition of the equipment there.  The first kitchen I rented had ovens literally all over the facility - deck ovens, convection stacks  and none of them worked right.  When I said to the landlord how much I was wasting in figuring out what worked and didn't work, he shrugged and said he wasn't going to calibrate the ovens or do anything to them because they worked for what HE was doing (roasting stuff).  If you decide to stay in this rental kitchen you might want to ask if they will consider rent relief if you calibrate the oven - but that might not solve the problem of an old oven...

 

The incubator kitchen in this part of the state is fully equipped with brand new stuff and they are committed to keeping it in excellent working order because they are charging a kings ransom for it.

[Lisa Shock]

Agree that the color is fine if not a bit too pale. Americans are now accustomed to seeing pale baked goods in supermarkets where they use shortening instead of butter as the fat which gives a pale result. What you want is dark brown and delicious. Most baked good should be the color of a medium wood finish -think mahogany or walnut. (oak is way too light)

[brooksms]

4 hours ago, Lisa Shock said:

Agree that the color is fine if not a bit too pale. Americans are now accustomed to seeing pale baked goods in supermarkets where they use shortening instead of butter as the fat which gives a pale result. What you want is dark brown and delicious. Most baked good should be the color of a medium wood finish -think mahogany or walnut. (oak is way too light)

 

Good to know! I'm going for Levain Bakery style and having a very difficult time trying to determine how long to bake. These are large 6 oz each and have all been cooled overnight. I think I accidentally smushed the 15 min one but you get the idea. At 14.5 mins you can clearly see my fingerprint in the center. All of them are like that to some extent though. It's more a difference of how much the outside gets dried out. I'm making myself sick with stress over this! The first two pictures are 14.5 mins, then 15, 16, 17 & 18.

Edited September 30, 2018 by brooksms (log)

[Lisa Shock]

I know the Levain style is thick, but maybe you need to flatten yours just a tiny bit before baking. If they were just an eighth of an inch less thick your problem might be solved. That said, another thing to try would be to bake on silicon mats instead of parchment. The mats insulate and will prevent so much heat transferring from the pan, lessening the browning of the bottoms.

 

Another thing to try would be cooling racks. I know the Levain recipes say they don't use cooling racks, but, you might get better results with cooling off the sheet pans to reduce cooking the bottoms. At any rate, with raw centers, you clearly need to go for a longer bake, try reducing the temp a little and going 4 minutes longer with either silpats or cooling racks. 

 

I'd bring my own sharpie (pink!) and make my own mark on that dial when I get to the perfect temp, doubt that anyone will notice.

[brooksms]

3 hours ago, Lisa Shock said:

I know the Levain style is thick, but maybe you need to flatten yours just a tiny bit before baking. If they were just an eighth of an inch less thick your problem might be solved. That said, another thing to try would be to bake on silicon mats instead of parchment. The mats insulate and will prevent so much heat transferring from the pan, lessening the browning of the bottoms.

 

Another thing to try would be cooling racks. I know the Levain recipes say they don't use cooling racks, but, you might get better results with cooling off the sheet pans to reduce cooking the bottoms. At any rate, with raw centers, you clearly need to go for a longer bake, try reducing the temp a little and going 4 minutes longer with either silpats or cooling racks. 

 

I'd bring my own sharpie (pink!) and make my own mark on that dial when I get to the perfect temp, doubt that anyone will notice.

 

Thanks for the help! The bottoms aren't overly brown in person so no issue there. I realized cutting with a knife, as I did before taking pictures, makes them appear pretty raw. They don't seem like that when just torn apart as someone eating one would. I also looked at videos/pictures of Levain and they definitely leave theirs extremely raw. I think that's just how it's supposed to be. What I noticed is that mine completely lost exterior crispiness once packaged. Today I tried again but this time removed them to wire racks after 10 mins and made sure they were 100% cool before packaging. We'll see if that helps! If not, I might need to turn the oven even hotter to get a more crispy exterior. However, that would require altering my recipe to spread more. As-is they don't spread much at 350 in the commercial oven. Any hotter and I doubt they'd spread at all. Maybe more butter or sugar? Either that or maybe I should put back the baking soda I removed and let them get a bit darker on top without changing anything else?

Edited September 30, 2018 by brooksms (log)

[pastrygirl]

Unless it’s completely dry all the way through, you’ll lose any crisp exterior soon after packaging.