Gardening: 2002-2009 Seasons

[stellabella]

But how does that work if you want to add grass clippings to your compost bins, grab a rake

About the composting bins, the critters...I thought I could create something that might have a door on the top and then just dump my compostable waste (kitchen refuse, grass clippings and leaves) in there.

So, what can I start from seed over the winter? Rail Paul mentioned lettuce and tomatoes, but I'm really into the peppers and wonder if I can start those as well?

mulching mowers come with bags--if you want to catch the clippings, use the bag--if you don't use the bag, they blow out onto the grass

a bin with a door on it sounds like the right thing to do--keep in mind that most critters are nocturnal--possums and raccoons, cats, dogs, etc.--and if the squirrels start to bother you, get a .22

hopleaf, since you're so far north, you don't want to put your plants out til you have warmish overnights [60s is preferable]-- in the chicago area this could be the end of may--it's way too early to start plants from seed--they'll get leggy. late february, march is probably a good time to start--try different peppers, and tomatillos. before your little plants go into the ground they have to be "hardened off"--my husband knows more about this than i--ask around about the best time to begin this process in your area.

starting from seed is great fun, and remwarding, but if you have access to a good greenhouse that sells organic plants, support your local organic farmers, too.

[maggiethecat]

You go, Stellabella! Hoppy: Everything that can be composted must be composted, and Stella and I will visit and have a slapfest if we find you tossing leaves or clippings. And vegetative kitchen scraps!

My parents had a good chuckle seeing the spouse and me in action making dinner this summer. "We've never seen adults in the First World fighting over garbage before!" His Handsomeness keeps a container in the freezer in which he deposits poultry scraps, mushroom stems, onion scraps, etc..the detritus of prepping dinner. When the container is full he makes stock. (Idea courtesy of Jacques Pepin). We were fighting over what got the celery leaves and parsley stems...the stockpost or the compost heap. I always get the coffee grounds and the eggshells.

There are all sorts of scientific methods of making a compost heap. My advice is "Don't sweat it!" Feed the beast (Add some peat moss, it's good) and turn it over once a week with your garden fork.

Try planting tarragon. To my immense delight, it has prospered over the last fifteen years. And by all means, play around with heirloom tomatoes...your good garden center should have them. We planted Brandywines for the first time a couple of years ago and will never have other than heirlooms now. I almost cried at the first bite. "Ah hah! This then, is what a tomato should taste like!"

Swiss Chard "Bright Lights" lookes fab in my flowerbeds, as did the basil, which makes a good underplanting for rosebushes.

I belong to the Senseless Useless Beauty school of gardening...many more flowers than veggies. But the summers I didn't plant vegetables I missed them badly. And for the magic thing (Especially good if you have little kids)throw in a package of radish seeds. They are so easy and grow so fast.

Don't worry too much about the possible effects of nitrogen leaching from wood chips, though Dave (wow! wish I could see his garden!) is correct. Your compost and soil amendments will offset it. And I'd go ahead with the newspaper now, although the cold will slow the action. It will make you feel busy and useful, and you'll get a head start should we have a warm spring.

[sparrowgrass]

If you are putting your garden into a lawn area, you can try "solarizing" the space. Instead of using black plastic, use clear plastic, and stake or weight it down at the edges. It may be a too late for it to do much good this winter, but come springish weather, the ground under the plastic will warm, and the grass will be killed, either by heat, or by freezing temps at night. Ditto for weed seeds--they will come up, and then die.

I just put a garden into sod, and grass has been a real headache. Raised beds sound great--use a good thick layer of newspapers in the bottom before you put your soil mix in to keep the grass out. I used newspapers to keep the weeds out of my asparagus, and under the mulch in the flower beds.

Compost bins--use welded wire, not chicken wire. Chicken wire is light weight, looks like honeycomb shapes. Welded wire is heavier and will last much longer. I run my compostables thru chickens, so I am not a compost expert, but I do think chicken wire is too flimsy.

Some way to stake your tomatoes is a must--I use cattle panels, which are either 12 or 16 feet long, heavier than welded wire but still somewhat flexible. 2 panels, set side by side about a foot apart, with the tomatoes planted in-between, will hold them up with little help from you. They can also be bent into an arch shape, and used for pole beans or gourds or cucumbers. They cost under $10 each, at the farm store, and don't forget to buy a couple metal fence posts to fasten each panel to. (Go out past the suburbs, to cow and pig country, to purchase these. And borrow a truck.)

Be sure to plant potatoes, early as you can work the soil, and begin to dig them when the plants bloom. Those little new potatoes right out of the dirt taste like heaven--nothing at all like storage potatoes.

Go to the University of Illinois Extension Service web site: http://www.extension.uiuc.edu/welcome.html And for gardens in other states, do a search--lots of good Extension info on line these days.

Extension folks have the answers to lots of questions, they have agronomists and horticulturists on staff, and you can visit them in person, probably at your county courthouse. (If you lived in Missouri, you could come to the courthouse and visit me!!)

And enjoy--nothing better than playing in the dirt in spring, unless it is eating the yummies you grow with your own hands.

[Nick]

Nick, you're saying that it's too late to do the newspaper thing (that is if I go without the raised beds)?

Hopleaf, I think it's too late because by now most everything has gone dormant or died. I've never tried the newspaper or plastic thing, but aside from killing the grass and weeds from the heat, it would also be a composting operation. Good compost requires heat to get the right little bugs working to break things down.

I can't really go along with the chicken wire (or heavier) composting because, in addition to heat (usually generated by the pile itself) it needs turning and mixing from time to time and that's hard to do with something that's enclosed. (I have to admit I rarely turn my compost. I'm lazy.)

Another thing, considering some of the posts, is don't put meat scraps in the pile. They'll attract a whole different kind of little bug to the breakdown process - as well as unwelcome critters like rats, skunks, raccoons, etc. I sometimes put a few meat scraps on the pile but it's only for the crows. While I'm on crows, don't put on tortillas unless you bury them well. Crows love them! They like them so much I leave them on top and watch them have a feast.

An exception to meat is fish. There are few things better for a compost pile than fish - scraps, racks, or whole. But bury them well so they don't attract coons, etc. Ten or so years ago I went seining for herring with a fisherman friend and brought home two five gallon pails of herring. At the time I was making a few beds by digging the sod and shaking it out. I took the turfs about 12" square and made piles of them layering herring in between the sods. It was the best compost I ever had.

Moving onto beds, that's probably the best way to start as you can just make a few to get the feel of things. And, as I think Fred said above, make their width narrow enough that you can reach the middle from either side. Whether you mulch or not you will have to do some weeding. Also, if you have them side by side make sure there is enough distance between them in the walkway that you can be on your knees weeding one without having your feet in another. I don't do raised beds. I think they may evaporate the moisture from the soil more quickly than a bed that's "in the ground."

I think I'll quit here. A last thought is that for your first year plant things that are easy to grow. And some stuff that comes up quick, like radishes and lettuce.

[stagis]

When we bought our house (15 years ago now) one of the first things I did outside was start putting in permanent stuff, and we're reaping the benefits now.

3 Grape Vines

3 Blueberry Bushes (which, when trimmed, make a decent hedge)

A whole crew of rasperries

Rhubarb

Mint

Oregano

Asparagus

I've also played with strawberries (pain in the a**), little teensy-weensy apple trees (not enough fruit), garlic. Garlic's too cool -plant it in the fall, cover it with straw and first thing in the spring you've got green growing stuff, eh? Played with horseradish - I'd rather buy it - it'll gas you out of the house.

[maggiethecat]

I have to agree with Nickn about enclosing compost heaps. Pain in the neck...but I'm lazy. Mine is "enclosed" with some 18" ornamental wrought iron edging, with a little (slightly damaged, and cheap)wrought iron trellis on the side facing pedestrians. I plant hyacinth vine to grow over the trellis, shielding last night's offerings from the curious ("They had eggplant three times this week!") and adding that senseless useless beauty thing.

The heap is (barely) enclosed on three sides, making access easy and the pile slightly defined.

[sparrowgrass]

I just moved into my house a year ago. I have planted 50 asparagus plants, (sparrowgrass is an old english name for asparagus), 3 peach trees, rhubarb, and hundreds of bulbs . Grapes are coming, as well as blueberries, and maybe some of those hardy kiwis. I have lots of wild blackberries that I didn't have time to pick this year, but next year--blackberry wine. (It's medicinal, ya know.)

I have two acres, and next year I am going to plant lots of sweet corn, popcorn, more tomatoes and peppers, more beans and more potatoes. I am going to fence the garden, to keep the chickens in or out as needed. I have 27 hens and one happy rooster.

[maggiethecat]

Sparrowgrass: Can you hear me gnashing my teeth with envy? Two acres? Blackberries? Chickens?

Lucky, lucky lady!

[sparrowgrass]

come on down and visit, maggie. Only about 10 hours drive from Chicago.

Where I will be this weekend--Thanksgiving at my bro's house in Warrenville.

[Hopleaf]

Ok, I think I hit the mother load. This weekend I went over to my new house (which we haven't closed on yet) to clean the gutters before winter really sets in and in the hopes of avoiding any ice-jams on the roof. Well, it turned out to be quite the job as it hadn't been done in what seemed like about 6 or 7 years. There was decomposed leaves at the bottom of each gutter that was one small step from being soil. I collected the entire lot (five and a half garbage can fulls) and reserved them at the back of the yard. The thing is, I dont' know if I can use all this prime compost for my vegetable garden because it has a lot of granules from the shingles (you know the little white pebbles that the shingles have on them). Thing is I have no idea if these granules are synthetic and if they'll leach any toxic materials into my soil. My formidable gut's telling me "when in doubt..." But I really, really want to use the compost. It's so fertile (it smells fantastic).

At any rate, I suppose I can use it on my flower beds. BTW, I found out what one of the varieties of flowering shrubs we have are: hydrengas (sp?). A friend of mine who's taking classes toward a landscaping certificate (she's a designer by trade and aspires to be a landscape designer soon) said that you can affect the color that hydrengas flower with by manipulating the ph levels in the soil immediately around the plant's base. Pretty cool.

Also, I met one of my soon-to-be neighbors who told me about the former owners. She said the most recent owner was an avid gardner and had a prosperous garden right where I had planned to put mine. Talk about fertile ground!

What else? I was packing yesterday and busy all weekend, so I have some catching up to do on this thread. I'll get to reading them today.

[maggiethecat]

You know you are a gardener when the smell of rotting leaves is beautiful.

My neighbour almost apologetically offered me the rotten leaves that had accumulated on his pool cover over last winter. "Margaret, they smell so awful? Are you sure?"

Yes!

And we discussed last night during dinner prep how weird it is not to be able to dump the kitchen scraps on the compost heap. Those fennel fronds would break down in a couple of days during the summer.

So we used them as a cat toy for a couple of minutes.

Sparrowgrass: Do you compost your chicken manure?

[sparrowgrass]

Maggie, can't figure out how to pm you back--so I'll put it here:

My bro and s-i-l just moved to Warrenville last year, i believe--they live quite near the high school, but i can't remember the street name. I grew up in Woodridge (we were one of the first families to buy a home in that subdivision in the early 60's) and then moved to Naperville.

I am in se mo now, after 25 years of following the Evil One as he moved from job to job in the Forest Service, divorced for 2 years, happy in my new home.

We are one of the approximately 27 families in theworld who enjoy our times together, so I shouldn't be too stressed out...but i might send my dad over . Too many kids and dogs running around for him.

I have not composted my chicken manure yet--I have a very thick layer of straw in the hen house, which of course gets all poopy, but I scatter some grain around on the floor, and the hens mix it all up.

Theoretically, the straw/manure will compost a bit in the house, and help warm it up some. It seems really dry and dusty, so I am not sure that is happening. In the spring, I will shovel it out, probably onto the part of the garden I will plant to corn.

[Hopleaf]

Has anyone constructed their own greenhouse? If so, how did it go? Easy, difficult? Did you get a kit (I've heard they sell something like a pre-fab kit that you put together). Any pointers?

I got a few seed catalogs from my mum over the holiday. Plus she let me borrow a book on organic gardening. We're still in the process of moving (boxes galore) but will be in our new home by Saturday. I've already started developing a plan for the garden. Just tinkering with a few ideas right now.

As for the on-going discussion of whether or not to put newspaper down, my brother-in-law (a very successful gardener) says that for my zone it might be too late to put the newspaper down with the hopes of killing the grass. His experience is that since the grass has started to hybernate for the winter, that the energy-core is in the grass's root system. His advice was to just wait until spring to kill it, otherwise, if I do it now, it might not do the trick come spring and by summer I'd have grass coming up. I think I'll still give it a whirl (my thinking is it can't hurt)...the BIL has been known to be wrong in the past.

Meanwhile, my mum also gave me a bunch of seeds which I think I'll start tinkering with over the winter. Are there any vegetables that you can't start from seed? She gave me quite the variety, broccoli, radishes, cucumbers, and tomatoes.

Hope you all had a good Thanksgiving.

[maggiethecat]

I'm fairly sure that most veg can be grown from seed, but in many cases, why bother? Brussel sprouts, for one. I just give the garden center my buck fifty for three. BTW, even is you hate sprouts, grow them at least once. They are such a magic-looking sight.

Unless you do have a greenhouse or a Gro-light setup, I'd buy my own tomato plants too. My Dad has one of those Gro-light cart thingmajigs and it's cool. He is the only person I know crazy(and patient!)enough to grow impatiens and geraniums (or pelargoniums, if you're semantically picky!) from seed.

[snowangel]

Planting from seed. Just buy tomato plants, or start them under gro lights, which is a commitment. You need to plant them in very tiny pots, cover with plastic, make sure they are neither too damp nor too dry, move them into bigger pots, etc.

Green beans, cukes, radishes, carrots, greens, basil and some others are much better planted by seed directly into the garden, but some are better planted early when the soil is cool, and some will just rot (like beans) if the soil is too cool. And, if you are buying a package of seeds to get two plants, you may be better off just buying the plants.

ANd, with certain things, you need to make some other decision. I have grown both bush and climbing green beans, and in my opinion, the climbing ones are a better use of space, but you'll need some sort of trellis (I used corn plants a few years) because they have a much longer season than bush beans. And, there are certain plants that tend to use a lot of the good stuff in the soil and shouldn't be planted in the same area year after year unless you make heavy amendments to the soil (tomatos and corn come to mind).

Hopleaf, you need a really good book(s) on growing vegetables. All of the "lore" I have was gleaned from my great grandmother and grandmother, who depended on their garden produce to get them through the winter. SInce they were Nebraskans and I am a Minnesotan, I have had to make adjustments.

If you don't have a library card, get one, and check out a whole mess of "growing veggies" books (the Victory Garden book is quite good, and organized nicely).

And, if you haven't contacted your local hort society and ag extension service yet, do so this winter! They should have a wealth of information, and best of all, their info will be geared to your latitude and weather.

Spend the winter gathering info.

Maggie, I agree about brussel sprouts. Not only are the plants magnificent, but they can stay in the ground long into the winter. Just two years ago, I was out in my sorels (snow coming over the top) on Thanksgiving morning, picking them for dinner that night.

[Hopleaf]

Just an update here:

Ok, so it's almost seed ordering time for me (cuz there's nothing else I can do so I might as well get busy on that). BTW, in case anyone's interested, our big move went very smoothly (which I define as nothing broken). Lots of cleaning and the unpacking's just about done (we went to town last weekend!). We're loving the new house. Decorating has been fun, though we have a ton of work ahead of us (fun work at least).

So anyway, I was happy to find that the previous owner had left me several garden tools and hoses in very good shape. Since I'm saving on that front, I figure I can go a little nuts ordering seeds. I'm working up a garden plan to have a guide. But I want to do a mix of flowers with my veggies. My organic gardening book has a great section on garden planning (though I do want to get my hands on snowangel's recommendation of The Victory Garden book...first trip to the library).

More later.

[snowangel]

If you are going to include any perennials in with your flowers, a must look at book is The Well Tended Perennial Garden by Tracy DiSabato-Aust. She has a great section on soil preparation, has great descriptions of many perennials -- not just what they look like, but how they perform, how to pinch and prune to extend blooming life, and just how high maintenance they will be.

[stellabella]

a couple more thoughts:

sparrowgrass, you've hit the mother load. anytime someone writes about chickens i go weak at the knees. my spouse kept them once, but doesnt care to start again--even though we've got space for them and i have their names picked out and everything. but--oh, for the garden, nothing beats chicken poopie/doodie/shittiy.

hopleaf, what about worms? would you consider getting worms? i have friends near the canadian border in NY state who keep a compost bin filled with live composting worms--even in dead arctic winter the compost inside stays heated up and cooking. i'm told this a good way to compost in cold regions. i have no idea where you get worms but you could ask around.

chickens, chickens, chickens. as well as goats. how i'd love a menagerie of small grazing/foraging critters.

[Hopleaf]

hopleaf, what about worms?  would you consider getting worms? i have friends near the canadian border in NY state who keep a compost bin filled with live composting worms--even in dead arctic winter the compost inside stays heated up and cooking.  i'm told this a good way to compost in cold regions.  i have no idea where you get worms but you could ask around.

chickens, chickens, chickens.  as well as goats.  how i'd love a menagerie of small grazing/foraging critters.

Ahh, stellabella, I hear you. a little slice of eden would be nice.

Worms, yes. The thing is, all I have in the compost pile (not yet to the bin stage) so far is the gutter stuff and a bunch of grass clippings. We've been having a somewhat mild late autumn here so far, courtesy of El Nino. So, I'm figuring I could probably get something to 'start' the composting going and then toss in some kitchen scraps all winter long. I figured I could probably find some worms at a bait shop (they do ice fish around here, so they have to have some worms, right?). Otherwise, I wonder if worms might be available at a garden center. Worth looking into.

Snowangel, you're a wealth of info and your book recommendations are great. I've added both to my amazon wish list. Thing is, the most of the Victory Garden books that came up in my search were listed as either out of stock or in limited availability. Could you specify which book you referred to earlier?

[snowangel]

Two things:

1. Worms/compost. On a sunny winter day, no matter how cold, my compost is steaming, and I've never added worms. There are some worms in it, but not artificially injected.

2. Victory Garden. The one I have is about vegetables, and unfortunately buried in a box underneath many other boxes (kitchen remodeling; just you wait!). Advice on books. Get a library card. Get a PIN number from library. Spend some time on-line with your local library requesting every book everyone has ever recommended; check them out; if you like them and deem them worthy, purchase them. If you deem them not worthy, you have just saved yourself $$$$$. I hardly ever buy a book anymore that I haven't had a chance to curl up with in advance of purchase. One more book idea, this one written especially for MN, not IL, is Leon Snyder's Gardening in the Upper Midwest. You might be able to check this one out from your library. It might be a bit "northern" for you, but it, too, is a wonderful resourse. It's published by the Minnesota Horticultural Society.

And, a motherly nag. Have you found your local horticultural society? Contacted your ag extension service?

Now, to winter maintenance. Do you have a clue as to what perennials you have in your garden? Some will need tending. Roses may or may not need to be covered, clematises (sp?) that bloom on new wood need to be pruned, etc. Trusting that you have had a hard freeze and the ground is freezing, now is the time to tend to these things -- before the snow gets too deep. Did former owners leave any sort of map as to what was planted where?

[Nick]

Watch it on the seed catalogs. Nothing I can tell you will make any difference, but I'll bet you order 5-10 times more seeds than you'll ever plant.

[maggiethecat]

Watch it on the seed catalogs. Nothing I can tell you will make any difference, but I'll bet you order 5-10 times more seeds than you'll ever plant.

Hoppy, listen to the man. Please.

Of course I know this and make the same mistake every year. Exactly how many poppies can I grow in a 50X30 garden? And when it's springtime, there is the Siren Song of the Garden Center.

Seed catalogues for gardeners may be the most addictive porn published.

I recommend Renee's Garden Seeds and Shepherd's Seeds.

I need a 12 Step Programme!

[Jaymes]

I know what you mean. And all I have is a small deck off of the back of my condo.

But I garden furiously anyway - containers hold fig tree and lemon tree and strawberries and peppers, and every kind of herb imaginable.

I cannot fathom a life without growing something.

[Suvir Saran]

I know what you mean.  And all I have is a small deck off of the back of my condo.

But I garden furiously anyway - containers hold fig tree and lemon tree and strawberries and peppers, and every kind of herb imaginable.

I cannot fathom a life without growing something. 

Jaymes I am with you in the small deck part.

And still, like you, we manage to get a lot out of it... and pretty much all you say... In fact we do guerilla gardening in our buildings rooftop, and in the peak of the summer, take the Tomato planters to the rooftop, where they bask all day in sun.. and give us great tomatoes. Same thing with strawberries, in fact we have some in the bedroom now (plants make up 3/4 of the bedroom in the winter. Close to a 100 potted plants have to come in. They cannot stay out in the winter).

The mint comes out each year.. on its own. Most of the herbs survive. We plant basil seeds before the winter has ended and let them mature enough for getting ready for plantation over the refrigerator. We do the same with most other seeds. We sow them while it is still cold outside, but getting ready for Spring. This gives us a jump start and also ensures we have the pleasure one gets from planting from seeds.

Several of the chile plants winter inside and go out in Spring. These give us a few chiles through the winter and again start bursting with chiles once outside. The passion flower plants winter in.. and each year bear fruit during the summer...

We also grow several tropical fruits and some warmer weather fruit trees that need to come in, but stay out all summer. We only add vegetables (raw only), egg shells, coffee and tea into the compost. It is a wooden container that has some dirt, but mostly compost. We water it whenever we water outside, every day in the peak of the summer.. every other day rest of the time. And yes we turn it over several times a month. And have been known to add a little dirt every now and then. No citrus waste goes into the compost. I have never added meats or cooked foods into the compost. We live in a city that is famous for rodent problems, and we would hate to inflict ourselves with that.

We have a brick wall facing our deck that protects us from getting much sun, we have used that as a way to grow vines. We have morning glories, moon flowers, scarlet runner beans, sweet peas, climbing hydrangea, salvias, coleus's, spring flowering bulbs, akebia, clematis and of course Ivy that has been covering the wall for decades. But this last year we had a volunteer squash vine that came up... through a seed in the compost. It found its way into the ivy and had lots of squash.

We have planted a grape vine this year.. It seems to have done well through the summer and fall, lets see how it fares in the spring. It is our hope that we can stuff our own grape leaves instead of having to buy them brined or bottled. The grape vine is in the same container as our Forsythia bush. And yes the birds seem to enjoy it more than us and the neighbors. It is a HUGE chore to keep them away from eating away the buds all winter long. What survives gives us great color as Spring shows its way into our city life.

Different salad greens are planted as base covering for many of the larger potted plants. They are quick and easy to grow and take care of. Basil and Mint serve the same purpose. Many a summer day and night, when alone at home, we will eat fresh mozzarella with basil and tomatoes... and we are in heaven. Kale and Swiss Chard are planted for the color they add to the deck towards the latter part of summer and early fall.

We used to grow nasturtiums and pansies, but had to plant them in the one window that had a lot of sun, but now we have made that our window for a very small herb garden (if you can imagine a garden in a window sill ). It is a garden in that it has most any herb one can think of.

We have had potatoes and carrots come out on their own... and it is fun to see them come out as volunteers... It adds to the fun of having even the smallest of gardens while living in a city.

I envy all those that have real gardens and lots of sun. How wonderful a treat it is. Also, I used to garden a lot in India. In fact after food and singing, it was my favorite other past time. But now, I tend to take the backseat as Chuck does active gardening. But it is enjoyment for all of us (friends and family and also neighbors).

PS: Our curry plant enjoyed this last summer. IN fact this year for the first time it had fruit. Purple berries like I was used to seeing on it in India. They were very pretty.... .ANd now we are drying the seeds for planting in spring.

[chefvic123]

Sounds like you are getting ready to dig up the yard.

I grow my on herbs for the kitchen. I container garden. In large self water container. I put the containers on skids and have it all mounted on wheels. This way I can roll up what is in season or what ever I need. If I am doing tomatoes I occasionally will have to move the plants to catch better sunlight.

What ever! There are are plenty of websites available on gardening that are general and plant specific. The seed producers will be happy to provide information on getting the best from their seeds.

Chiefvic123