Rick Bayless and Burger King - Part 2

[Fat Guy]

what I see here in our major cities (and a surprising number of smaller ones)  is an explosion of mom and pop type restaurants offering food from all over the world.

No doubt your observations are correct. But trends occur for a variety of reasons and aren't binary one way or the other. If there has been an explosion of mom-and-pop ethnic restaurants, that explosion surely owes nothing to Burger King et al., and most likely the omnipresence of the chains has hampered rather than encouraged the trend (though it's arguable that, especially at the middle market Red Lobster/Outback Steakhouse level, the chains have brought the benefits of competitive pressure to some lazy markets). Still, to paint with very broad brush-strokes, I do think Canada is more like the UK than the US in terms of its culinary and food-culture timeline.

[mags]

You know, I'm thinking here about the explosion of choice that we've seen in the food-universe, and the concurrant explosion of fast-food franchises. And I'm wondering if there isn't in fact something of a causal relationship between the two. Specifically, isn't there a level of choice at which the luxury of options tips into Overwhelm, prompting people to retreat from the act of choosing?

In my two careers, I see something of a similar phenomenon. The bull market of the 90s, and particularly the late 90s, produced a flood of new investment options as banks and fund companies and insurance firms all scrambled to attract more of all that lovely lolly floating around. And the bear market that followed prompted a similar flood, with all the financial firms frantic to claim that THIS investment....no, THIS one....no THIS ONE would protect investors from losing money. But what's happened is that investors have largely given up trying to pick, and have turned in droves to brokers and "financial advisors" who are paid to do the picking. There's no way to determine the extent to which one condition (increasing number of choices) produced the other (decision to opt out of choosing), but I'd be willing to bet that there's a certain amount of causality at work.

As a reader, what I love is surprise -- an unexpected plot-twist, a startling turn of phrase, a setting or situation or relationship I've never encountered before that nevertheless manages to convey a sense of inevitability. But as a bookseller, there's no question that what most of my customers want is predictability. They will buy the new Patricia Cornwell even if they've been disappointed by the last five in the series. They line up for the latest Sue Grafton despite having read the previous (counting in my head, here) 16. And they will line up for it despite -- no, BECAUSE -- of the fact that little has changed from Book #1 in the series. What they crave is the sameness, which strikes me as not very different from craving the assurance that a Big Mac in Tokyo will taste and look very much like a Big Mac in Sioux City. As it happens, my bookshop tends to have a very low correlation with bestseller lists, because we are screamingly full-service, which is just another way of saying that we act as "reading advisors." You don't know what book to read/what mutual fund to buy? If you're willing to shell out more than you'd pay at Barnes & Noble/a discount brokerage, we'll do the choosing for you. In either case, your needs and tastes are analyzed, and you are relieved of the obligation to make sense of the ever-expanding menu of options. Those who opt for the series (or the Big Macs) are taking the same route. They prefer a mediocre experience to the risk of a bad one, and to the effort of designing their own experience.

[fresco]

You know, I'm thinking here about the explosion of choice that we've seen in the food-universe, and the concurrant explosion of fast-food franchises. And I'm wondering if there isn't in fact something of a causal relationship between the two.  Specifically, isn't there a level of choice at which the luxury of options tips into Overwhelm, prompting people to retreat from the act of choosing?

So what you are saying is that eGullet is guilty of helping to drive people into the arms of BK.

[Fat Guy]

Curses, foiled again.

[hannnah]

Curses, foiled again.

Shouldn't that be broiled again?

Sorry, couldn't resist...

[Gleep]

I've been reading this topic with some interest. As a child I thought it was a treat to go to the fast food places and actually looked forward to it even though the majority of my diet was made up of my great grandmother's fabulous home cooking. As I grew into my teen years I realised that when I ate at those places I wasted an opportunity to eat something that I really enjoyed and all but stopped frequenting the fast food chains.

Now I have a two year old and Burger King and McDonald's have these elaborate indoor play areas. I've found that a lot of my friends find it a convenient place to take their children so they can have a break from cooking and their children can play. They often want to meet at one or the other so that the kids can play together. I spent months trying to convince them that it was just as easy to pack a picnic lunch and go to park but no one was interested. Finally after several terrible lunches at Burger King, I discovered a small diner nearby. Now we stop there and get two good lunches complete with sweet potato fries and go on to BK to play with our friends. We still get the convenience but the food is so much better! The management at BK doesn't mind as long as we buy something like a soda. I did try one of the new chicken sandwiches recently but found it to be no better than their other products.

One other thing that I want to mention is seeing Alton Brown at the Cooking Show in Raleigh last weekend. During his second demo he was picking on Rachel Ray. It was all good natured and he said that she is a really nice person but in the middle of his jokes an audience member shouted out that he was just jealous because she had a BK commercial and he doesn't. He responded that he was actually offered the commercial first but thought it would be hypocritcal to accept since he had gone on record saying that until we eliminate the phrase "Biggie size" from our vocabulary that we are doomed to be big fat slobs.

Edited October 23, 2003 by Gleep (log)

[kangarool]

Whomever posted the funny "Great, my kids would just love some figs bread and salami for lunch" actually proves the point… the people who create, promote and patronise BK and the rest have altered the world’s appreciation of taste downward, because the creators/promoters make more money by doing so, and the 4-hour-television-watching patrons perpetuate it.

That was about my children. I suggest you read what was posted again, because I don't think you got the point.

Re: the figs, I was referring more to Tommy’s reply to casting@philacast.com, posted Oct 6 2003, 12:29 PM:

Casting: but I've yet to not be able to find a market, buy some bread, a piece of cheese, a hunk of salami and some fruit. That'll do for lunch or dinner.

Hjshorter: (But we don’t all have) the desire to unload both kids from their carseats and into the stroller, then back again once lunch is purchased, then steer said stroller while balancing a bag or two and drinks. When I'm out running errands it's nice to be able to get a sandwich without leaving the car, especially when it's raining

Tommy: yeah, not to mention kids just love a baguette, some figs, and a bit of salami for lunch.

The only point I was trying to make in this regard was, maybe kids don’t have a taste for "a baguette, some figs, and a bit of salami for lunch" is BECAUSE the massively dominant choices for food inculcated upon them at nearly every turn for the past several decades are overwhelmingly sugary cereals, drinks, and fatty salty "happy" meals.

So while I don’t disagree with either your or Tommy’s remark; I’m simply trying to point out that the humour in his remark may have a not-so-funny root cause.

Admittedly, my point is very much a question, not a fact.

[kangarool]

I don't want to be put in the position of defending Burger King or its fast food cousins, but to blame them for much or all of the bad food in the world is just plain wrong.

Could very well be wrong, but I would tend to agree with FG's last few posts ... that any correlation of Fast Food's dominance over the past 40 years, with the appreciation for and availability of good (ie fresh, locally grown) food over the same time, is, yes, related in time, but likely not in cause.

But I'd concede that my comments were far too sweeping -- that if there's "bad food" in the world, that BK, McD and the rest are singularly responsible for it.

Still... surely they haven't helped.

[mags]

But I'd concede that my comments were far too sweeping -- that if there's "bad food" in the world, that BK, McD and the rest are singularly responsible for it.

Still... surely they haven't helped.

Nah, they haven't helped, but there was certainly lots of awful food available well before the Golden Arches and their greasy little kinfolk came along. I almost never had fast food when I was a kid -- I grew up in the city, and I don't think McDonald's and Burger King were even in New York at that time. Once every summer my family would go to some fast-food joint and get fried clams and frozen custard, and that was the extent of it. But I adored Captain Crunch and Campbell's pea soup, and my mother -- a truly terrible cook -- lived for frozen spinach souffle, Cool 'n Creamy frozen pudding, Cool Whip, and this disgusting Weight Watchers "cheesecake" made with Grape Nuts, fat-free cottage cheese, and Sweet'n Low. I still have bad dreams about it.

[hjshorter]

The only point I was trying to make in this regard was, maybe kids don’t have a taste for "a baguette, some figs, and a bit of salami for lunch" is BECAUSE the massively dominant choices for food inculcated upon them at nearly every turn for the past several decades are overwhelmingly sugary cereals, drinks, and fatty salty "happy" meals. 

Point taken.

Actually, my kids probably would prefer a baguette and salami, and if I could find a drive through that offered something like that it would be wonderful. Not sure about the figs though. Convenience always comes at a price, and when you have children you wind up paying that price more often that you'd like. At least McDonalds now offers fruit and milk with the happy meal.

[Ocean Girl]

I too have spent the past several days reading all 31 pages of this topic. Wow! I've clicked on links. Agreed. Disagreed. Chuckled. Grinned. And more importantly, really thought about the topic presented. Even the off-topic topics have made me stop and think about the different view-points.

My thoughts (such as they are or what they are worth)...Rick Bayless made a conscious choice by making the commercials for Burger King. I agree that by making the commercial, he does appear to be a hypocrite to his previous endeavors. But it was his choice, made of his own free-will. Just like we have the choice to support his endeavors or to write about him on this website.

I didn't know any of his background before reading these pages at egullet. I thought he just did that tv show on PBS which didn't really appeal to me. After seeing the pictures that tana so kindly posted of the sandwich in question, I'm going to take a pass on the sandwich. It too doesn't appeal to me. That is my choice.

As far as income-level eating habits.....I'm a single mom with a 14 y/o son. Cooking and food started out as a hobby - then I quickly learned that I gained far greater pleasure cooking for my family, than by spending more money for less-quality at some fast food place. I won't kid you though, I too will get a craving for McD's or Taco Bell (do not throw eggs at me for saying that), but I'm left feeling disappointed and robbed of the chance to have something better made by my own hands.

Again though, it's my choice to eat fast food or not. I don't consider it a treat - sometimes, I'm simply too tired from my busy day to deal with working for another hour to get food on the table. I think the most important message that I'm passing on to my son is that he too has choices regarding the food that he consumes. He will more often pass up fast food and ask me to make something from scratch that he loves. And I willingly do it for him when he asks - even if it means stopping at the grocery store on my lunch hour or on the way home to get the ingredients that are needed. Now if I could just get him to not disappear when there are dishes to do!

But I think the biggest point that I'm trying to make is that it comes down to choices. Whether it's Rocco making his show on NBC, or Rick Bayless making a commercial for Burger King, or me simply going to the nearest Boston Market to pick up chicken and mac-n-cheese rather than cooking the chicken myself - it's a matter of choice. Aren't we lucky to be able to have so many choices, and be able to agree-with or disagree-with those choices?

Perhaps a very simplified opinion compared with others that have been previously expressed here, but it's what I am taking with me after reading so much information. We all make choices in our lives. Some we can live with. Some we wish we had thought out a bit more before making that step.

[jayban31]

Y'know, now that I read Bayless' recipes closer, I DID find it curious that a goat mole dish calls for '10 flame-broiled chicken parmesan sandwiches, made fresh to order'...

A shrewd marketer decided to ask Rick to do this, probably right around the same time a publicist somewhere said "How can we get Rick's books more press?" Bayless sells his books to a few of US. Burger King sold some sandwiches to some of THEM. The challenge to anyone selling anything is to get some of THEM to buy stuff from US, and those pronouns are relative, so it works both ways.

BK is not looking specifically to sell a sandwich to anyone that knows what "artisanal" cooking is, but if John Q Public says "I think I've seen that guy's book at Barnes & Noble/Costco/Target," Mr. Public might buy the sandwich. It's street cred for BK, and for Rick, it's press. You can bet damn sure that an author in this decade who's best mass-market notoriety is from PBS didn't make that much money by showing up for a commercial shoot funded by a major corporation. They make their money by charging large coin for a product that they buy cheaply.

If Rick has a chance at introducing his name & face to a few new people, he'll have a better chance at selling a few more books, bottles of sauce & dry rub, and dishes (maybe). Hate his decision or not, this string is proof that it's working somehow - and until he actually starts specifying BK onion rings and ketchup packets in his recipes, it doesn't change a damn thing about his work.

[cabingirl]

Rick posted this on his website re: the Burger King Ad:

http://www.fronterakitchens.com/rickbayles...ess/whatsupwbk/

[elyse]

Y'know, now that I read Bayless' recipes closer, I DID find it curious that a goat mole dish calls for '10 flame-broiled chicken parmesan sandwiches, made fresh to order'...

[Squeat Mungry]

Well, I finally saw it last night, though after the Yankee's series loss and the 49er's embarassing performance in the desert, I'll admit I had been self-medicating a bit with the scotch. I had heard it started off like some of his market scenes from his PBS show, and it did -- but what I hadn't realized was that they were night shots. Some voice inside of me (or was it the scotch) kept saying, "...the Dark Side..."!

[mamster]

Am I the only one who has seen the second Bayless spot, for the Smoky BBQ sandwich? It's even worse.

[tan319]

Am I the only one who has seen the second Bayless spot, for the Smoky BBQ sandwich? It's even worse.

C'mon!!!

You're kidding, right?

Jaysus!

[eliotmorgan]

Am I the only one who has seen the second Bayless spot, for the Smoky BBQ sandwich? It's even worse.

Is "it" the commercial, the food, or both? Why is "it" worse? What is "it" served with? What's the protein? What does Bayless say about/during it? Are his statements true?

[mamster]

Sorry to be coy.

I can't remember the first half of the commercial--it may be Bayless walking through a BBQ competition, something like that. It probably doesn't say what state he's supposed to be in. But at the end he ends up at you-know-where, saying, "You know, some of the best BBQ around is at Burger King. That's right, Burger King."

The Smoky BBQ Chicken features the same chicken patty, same "baguette," same onions and peppers, but with barbecue sauce instead of "Southwest sauce". I haven't tried the sandwich and won't, but I said this ad is worse because I don't care what stupid town Bayless is in, some of the best BBQ is not available at BK. Obviously, paying people to lie in ads is how business is done, but we're talking about a respected chef who knows full well that the line he is saying is patently false. What else could we pay Bayless to say? Some of the best tacos around are at the Bell? The best steak in the world is served at Tad's?

[hollywood]

There was a piece on NPR today about the N E Journal of Medicine and how they were the first publication of any repute to have their writers reveal if they had any financial interest in the subjects they were writing on. Apparently a tendency had developed for certain researchers findings to coincide with their employment/investments. So to avoid conflicts of interest, the Journal requires disclosure. I haven't seen the Bayless ad but I doubt there's a subtitle advising that a small fee was paid for Mr. Bayless' participation. I guess if Bayless truly believed in the product he wouldn't have taken any fee given that the product is claimed to be a positive step.

[mamster]

He says 100% of his fee went to some small farmer's coop.

[jhlurie]

I know. Maybe Rick was standing around a dumpster. So he actually meant "some of the best BBQ around this dumpster" without sounding out the last two words.

And BBQ afficianadoes around the country are screaming at the idea that "flame broiling" followed by "heat lamping" followed by "crap saucing" equals "BBQ". Heck, was the McRib BBQ?

[snowangel]

But at the end he ends up at you-know-where, saying, "You know, some of the best BBQ around is at Burger King. That's right, Burger King."

I guess I thought BBQ had more to do with meat preparation than glop-on-top. But, I've been known to have been wrong about a thing or two in the past...

Interesting that in Minneapolis, I have not seen a single BK add with Rick. We've had that Rachael lady, but no Rick. The sandwiches he touts do not feature him in the ads I've seen.

[ExtraMSG]

I've seen the bbq sandwich ad several times here in Portland, OR, but never with Bayless in it. Must be saving the royalties for where it might make a difference.

Is there a placce to view it online? I know there used be a site I'd go to all the time a couple years ago where they seemed to have a ton of the current TV commercials. People would vote on their favorites, etc. But I can't remember where it was and I couldn't find it using google. Obviously it could have disappeared by now.

[hjshorter]

He says 100% of his fee went to some small farmer's coop.

It was the Frontera Foundation, right?

Curiosity got the better of me the other day, so I tried the Sante Fe. It wasn't bad for a fast food sandwich, but as I said on another thread it strikes me as the kind of thing that could vary wildly in quality from place to place. Mine was fresh and the bread was crusty. I could taste the poblanos and it wasn't drowing in sauce.

It's a reasonable fast food alternative when traveling and a Mcdonald's salad isn't an option.