Rick Bayless and Burger King - Part 2

[joiei]

I keep reading about the RB interview in the Miami Herald. Isn't that newspaper and BK both home officed in the Greater Miami area? Is there a connection in that interview? Just curious.

[Fat Guy]

You mean The Burger King Herald?

[ingridsf]

Both Ehrenreich and Schlosser are brilliant, tireless investigative journalists and talented writers who get derailed by their overtly political agendas. Nonetheless, the facts they've gathered are extremely useful in this discussion, and of course Bayless -- who has in the past subscribed to the Ehrenreich/Schlosser agenda -- should be particularly ashamed of himself for doing this ad for Burger King and for his follow-up whoring in the press. Could you imagine Schlosser or Ehrenreich doing a Burger King ad and having the nerve to call this crapola chicken sandwich a "step in the right direction"? Ehrenreich and Schlosser have principles. They, like Michel Nischan and Tony Bourdain, are people I can disagree with but still respect more than I respect plenty of people I do agree with. Bayless's audacity and disingenuousness, on the other hand, boggle the mind.

To reiterate, I don't think the conversation about people being forced to go to Burger King can be productive until such time as we define the groups we're talking about and focus on their specific plights. Various groups in various circumstances are going to have different problems that push them into the arms of the fast-food giants. There's plenty of blame to go around, but as long as we jump from category to category we won't really get down to the real arguments.

I've only read selections from Ehrenreich, but the general impression I get from her work is that part of the problem among the working poor is a near-complete lack of knowledge about what they can do to improve their situations. All the desire for improvement in the world won't help them if they don't have information, protection, security, or any kind of sense of empowerment. I think the same point can be made with respect to their dietary choices: the lack of choice may be partly a time issue and partly a money issue, but it is also in large part a lack of information, enfranchisement, and hope.

Certainly, anybody in that situation does not deserve to be judged for reliance on fast food. Those people deserve sympathy and help. But middle class suburbanites who should know better and have the ability to make choices unrestricted by any of these considerations? They should be taken out back and slapped silly. And I firmly believe that the overwhelming majority of Burger King's habitual customers do have real choices.

I'm a big fan of Barbara Ehrenreich (her politics are no more overt than your average mainstream journalists' -- her's are just more honestly presented, IMO) and egulleters might like to know BE is a Friend of Fat. The link below is to her article in The Progressive.

http://www.progressive.org/sept02/ehr0902.html

[jhlurie]

You know its funny. You'd think if you Google-searched for "Burger King Baguette" eGullet would pop right up. Nope.

But the people at MommieTalk.com are right on the case sailing high on Google and talking about how "awesome" the sandwich is.

Tons of "Mommies" on eGullet. Why can't you guys talk about how Awesome the Baguette is?

[elyse]

[eliotmorgan]

...I don't believe there's any mystery as to why businesspeople would prefer customers to buy in bulk, nor did I suggest there was.  And I certainly don't believe that this preference grows out of a desire to "stick it to the poor."  Nevertheless, that is often a regrettable outcome of the preference, and I do find it appalling that city government would blatantly collaborate in said sticking. Which doesn't mean, of course, that I give up the groovy 10% discount to which my comparatively fat income entitles me.

...Why the quote marks around "discount"?  If I buy 20 subway rides at one shot, I get a 21st ride for free.  In what linguistic universe is this not a discount?  If you want to turn it around, I suppose you could think of it as an instant, guaranteed 10% return on my investment, but in either instance, it's a benefit that's not available to people who can't afford to shell out for all 20 rides at once.

Bulk discounts aren’t a mere “preference” and the implication is that such discounts are a quirky prejudice of some sort. As a business owner who gives discounts you know better. If you insist on this point please explain your “appalling” practice.

”Why the quote marks around "discount"? If I buy 20 subway rides at one shot, I get a 21st ride for free. In what linguistic universe is this not a discount? If you want to turn it around, I suppose you could think of it as an instant, guaranteed 10% return on my investment, but in either instance, it's a benefit that's not available to people who can't afford to shell out for all 20 rides at once.”

No need to find your inner Chomsky on this one. You’ve apparently missed the irony of giving a certain class of folks a measly ride discount on an item largely funded by them. It’s a lot like Mom and Dad having to pay for their own birthday and holiday gifts from you when you were under 16. Though unlike your parents who at least received a gift and a thank you, albeit on their dime (it’s the thought that counts), the poor receive goods and services and respond with additional demands, argued by proxy by folks like you, who admittedly have to consult with formerly poor graduate school colleagues.

Congratulations on 10 years of business success. Awesome, but this lets me in on the fact that you don’t truly believe what you said about discounts, which is why I won’t belabor the point. You’re probably just nostalgic for the old tired arguments still common at Café’s Algiers and Pamplona.

As for Somerville, it’s a pit because it couples the elite conferred university degree ratio of Los Alamos with the employment and income record of Dorchester.

[eliotmorgan]

U.S. Troops Order Comfort, With Fries on the Side

Soldiers Looking for a Taste of Home Make for a Booming Business at Iraq's First Burger King

By Theola Labbé

Washington Post Staff Writer

Sunday, October 19, 2003; Page A25

BAGHDAD -- Welcome to Iraq, home of the Whopper.

Money quote: ""It's $2 of heaven. It's the only thing getting us through this deployment," [Capt.]Gercken said in reverent tones. "

The whole story is here

[mags]

Eliot, I bowed out of the political forum in which I used to participate precisely because I got bored with personal attacks being substituted for actual debate. If that's what you're up for, allow me to recommend the Republican forum on Compuserve (and available also on the web); it tends to specialize in that kind of discourse. Other than that, I'm going to follow the advice that was kindly emailed to me, and opt out of further discussion with you.

-- Maggie

[eliotmorgan]

Eliot, I bowed out of the political forum in which I used to participate precisely because I got bored with personal attacks being substituted for actual debate.

Maggie,

It was never personal.

Regards,

Eliot

[Lita]

Tons of "Mommies" on eGullet.  Why can't you guys talk about how Awesome the Baguette is? 

It was OK, but tasted like fake smoke. I liked that it was lowfat. I tried it before I knew of the Bayless connection, so please forgive me.

[claire797]

You know its funny.  You'd think if you Google-searched for "Burger King Baguette" eGullet would pop right up.  Nope.

But the people at MommieTalk.com are right on the case sailing high on Google and talking about how "awesome" the sandwich is.

Tons of "Mommies" on eGullet.  Why can't you guys talk about how Awesome the Baguette is? 

Attention Mommietalk Moms! Have I got a book for you!

[eliotmorgan]

You know its funny.  You'd think if you Google-searched for "Burger King Baguette" eGullet would pop right up.  Nope.

But the people at MommieTalk.com are right on the case sailing high on Google and talking about how "awesome" the sandwich is.

Tons of "Mommies" on eGullet.  Why can't you guys talk about how Awesome the Baguette is? 

Attention Mommietalk Moms! Have I got a book for you!

LOL!

Cucumber Rounds with Crabmeat

INGREDIENTS:

1/4 cup mayonnaise, Best Foods® or Hellmann's®

1 teaspoon prepared horseradish, Morehouse®

1/2 teaspoon Dijon mustard, French's®

1/2 teaspoon Worcestershire sauce, Lea & Perrins®

1 can (4.25-ounce) crabmeat, Geisha®

1/2 large unpeeled English hothouse cucumber, cut crosswise into 16 thin slices (about 1/4-inch-thick slices)

8 pimiento-stuffed green olives, sliced, Star®

Prep Time: 15 minutes [ How could it take 15 min. when all the ingredients are pre-prepared?]

[ronnie_suburban]

Hmmm...what brand of cucumber to use?

=R=

[zilla369]

You know its funny.  You'd think if you Google-searched for "Burger King Baguette" eGullet would pop right up.  Nope.

But the people at MommieTalk.com are right on the case sailing high on Google and talking about how "awesome" the sandwich is.

Tons of "Mommies" on eGullet.  Why can't you guys talk about how Awesome the Baguette is? 

Attention Mommietalk Moms! Have I got a book for you!

LOL!

Cucumber Rounds with Crabmeat

INGREDIENTS:

1/4 cup mayonnaise, Best Foods® or Hellmann's®

1 teaspoon prepared horseradish, Morehouse®

1/2 teaspoon Dijon mustard, French's®

1/2 teaspoon Worcestershire sauce, Lea & Perrins®

1 can (4.25-ounce) crabmeat, Geisha®

1/2 large unpeeled English hothouse cucumber, cut crosswise into 16 thin slices (about 1/4-inch-thick slices)

8 pimiento-stuffed green olives, sliced, Star®

Prep Time: 15 minutes [ How could it take 15 min. when all the ingredients are pre-prepared?]

i don't have any kids, but i suspect it might take 15 minutes just to slice the cucumbers if one did.

[hollywood]

i don't have any kids, but i suspect it might take 15 minutes just to slice the cucumbers if one did.

Especially if the kid(s) is/are trying to help.

[mags]

Oh my god...is that really a recipe in the book? Those brands are serious? Holy smokes. When people kvetched about the brands, I figured they were talking about the occasional advocacy of Hellman's or College Inn broth or something. But this is just ridiculous.

AGGGGGH! I just went to the site and looked at the recipes. Ok, I take back every single exculpatory thing I said about this woman and her promotional work.

Edited for hyperventilation.

Edited October 22, 2003 by mags (log)

[eliotmorgan]

I hereby award Sandra Lee, author of “Semi-Homemade” with the B. Smith Style Award for Culinary Uselessness. If she’s not able to fulfill her duties in this role the award will revert back to Ms. Smith, who until now was undefeated.

[mags]

Yabbut B. Smith's used to have a salmon-and-roast-mushroom salad I was very fond of.

[kangarool]

I’ve only now gotten to the last post on this topic. I started reading about 3 days ago. I might have gotten here sooner, were it not for having to wade through the bizarre and deeply annoying posts by the Snoop Dog Wannabe - whups, ‘shizzle diz dizzle, inc.’ I meant.

Anyway. Let me quickly add my voice and opinion to the original, fascinating topic:

• RB, BK, CC, et. al. There’s no question as to whether he was wrong or is a sellout and a hypocrite – he made a choice that confirms, in fact, defines that he is. Whatever. That’s life. But easy money comes at a cost, and I believe Chef’s Collaborative should articulate a stand one way or the other: "no thanks Rick, you’re not the ‘one of us’ you said you were." Or, "we agree with his point, the Chef’s Collaborative firmly believes the the Burger King Santa Fe Chicken Sandwich is indeed a step in the right direction." And while that may be a harsh choice, at least he’ll understand that the easy money he made comes at a heavy price.

I also have no doubt that his letters and interviews are undoubtedly spin. And even though I don’t live in Chicago, have never and probably will never go to his restaurant or to Burger King, it does affect me:

1) He’s promoting and advocating mediocrity in food and cooking. That affects me. For those who agree with this Step In the Right Direction, I ask you to answer, in all honesty: do you really believe this promotion is truly a step toward his "dream" of Burger King Venison Sandwiches with a side of Taro Chips and a nice glass of Zinfandel? I’ll pay you TRIPLE his BK payout if it happens in the next 15 years. I’ll take just 10% of the payout if it doesn’t. Any takers?

2) It also affects me personally: I have a young daughter who I want to have learn and appreciate the value of good quality food, and the pleasure to be had by cooking. By seeking to promote the mediocrity and easy options provided by Burger King, he’s trying to help, just a little bit, make BK and its ilk even MORE entrenched, not less. That is unconscionable action by anyone who cares about good food, but nauseatingly so, given his calibre and profile. Whomever posted the funny "Great, my kids would just love some figs bread and salami for lunch" actually proves the point… the people who create, promote and patronise BK and the rest have altered the world’s appreciation of taste downward, because the creators/promoters make more money by doing so, and the 4-hour-television-watching patrons perpetuate it.

I know there will always be Burger King. I know it will never really get any better than cheap and mediocre. I know gajillions of people will always go there, and actually enjoy it. But, on the original topic, Rick and BK, there’s no question: his actions are not helping, they’re hurting.

Now. One more related thing: I could be owing a lot of people triple Rick’s payout:

MCDONALD'S REPORTS SURGING SALES

CEO Is Lovin' It

October 22, 2003

CHICAGO (AdAge.com) -- McDonald's Corp. today reported strong performance for the third quarter and the nine months ended Sept. 30. The world's largest fast-food marketer reported net income rose 12% to $547.4 billion. Sales at stores open 13 months or more surged 9.5% in the U.S. during the quarter, driven by sales of premium salads (emphasis mine), "McGriddle" breakfast sandwiches and items from the chain's dollar menu.

http://www.adage.com/news.cms?newsId=39006

Is it possible? Could that 4-hour-television-watching patron actually learn to prefer something "good" over something "bad" or mediocre?

Or is it the old Salad Bar Guilt-Relieving Hypocrisy (load your 'salad' with bacon, deep fried ‘croutons’, fat dressing, etc), whereby McDs has created the ultimate marketing gimmick: give people a healthy "out", the salad, and they’ll pay for both the salad ("I’m bein’ healthy!) AND the 4 Big Macs they eat afterward?

That's it. Whew. Talk about 3 days to get through something.

Whups, just one more thing: each and every post of a picture of the sandwich in question is missing … did BK come down hard on eGullet or something? Just curious. Living in Australia, there's no Step In The Right Direction Sandwich on the menus to try.

[Fat Guy]

Thanks for reading the whole thread before posting -- it's something most people don't take the time to do, and it's appreciated by those of us who have put in the time on the thread already.

If you're having trouble seeing the photos, that's most likely some sort of Internet problem specific to you. I'm seeing them fine here on my end.

[pjs]

A query then:

Would a person from a low-income household who had Internet access (and there probably are households out there who fit that description in this day of the computer age) find this thread -- if not the thread, specifically the direction that this thread has taken -- useful or enlightening or vaguely amusing?

I'm not sure where I stand on that.

I'll get back to you though.

Soba

Here's an enlightening take.

A Church's franchise opens four blocks away from my 23 year-old business which, by the way, is located in the "bad" part of town. The franchise is a minority owned business operating across from the projects in a postage-stamp sized location in a strip mall. My guess is 800 sq. ft. total with seating for four at two tables. At first I thought, this is great, good chicken, nearby, and a minority owned business to boot.

The problem is this stuff is cheap, 2 thighs (untrimmed of fat and skin) and a leg with a biscuit for $2.49, that's almost half a chicken for not much more than the raw thing in the supermarket.

Once you witness parents ordering chicken, biscuits, and french fries for their children you begin to have second thoughts.

PJ

[hjshorter]

Whomever posted the funny "Great, my kids would just love some figs bread and salami for lunch" actually proves the point… the people who create, promote and patronise BK and the rest have altered the world’s appreciation of taste downward, because the creators/promoters make more money by doing so, and the 4-hour-television-watching patrons perpetuate it.

That was about my children. I suggest you read what was posted again, because I don't think you got the point.

[fresco]

the people who create, promote and patronise BK and the rest have altered the world’s appreciation of taste downward, because the creators/promoters make more money by doing so, and the 4-hour-television-watching patrons perpetuate it.

I don't want to be put in the position of defending Burger King or its fast food cousins, but to blame them for much or all of the bad food in the world is just plain wrong.

If anything, the appreciation for and availability of good (ie fresh, locally grown) food in Canada, the US, the UK and doubtless some other parts of the world has actually increased greatly over the past 30 or 40 years, coinciding, in fact, with the rise and spread of fast food chains.

It would be possible, I guess, to make a case that the market for good, fresh ingredients has been created at least in part by people reacting against the spread of the fast food giants and their ilk.

What we do have is many more choices now than our parents or grandparents did when it comes to dining at home or out. How well we eat depends more than ever on the choices we make, but I certainly appreciate having the choices.

[Fat Guy]

Improved distribution of fresh food is not particularly related one way or the other to the rise of fast-food establishments, though. That we for the most part have more and better choice of products year-round today than in the past is the result of better technology, transportation, etc. In terms of restaurant quality and choice, I think better ingredients and general historical development have made many restaurants better, but I also think at both the fast-food and middle-market price points the chains have on the whole been damaging to diversity. It's also worth noting for about the millionth time that the food at Burger King, McDonald's, and just about every other long-standing fast-food chain used to be significantly better than it is today: they used to use mostly fresh, higher-quality, less processed products.

But I think kangarool is making an argument about taste from a cultural standpoint, not from a product-availability standpoint. The point is simply that for a large segment of the population the improved choices we have now are going unchosen, and that the phenomenon is attributable in large part to a downward spiral of taste reinforced by the increasing dominance of fast-food chains.

[fresco]

Improved distribution of fresh food is not particularly related one way or the other to the rise of fast-food establishments, though. That we for the most part have more and better choice of products year-round today than in the past is the result of better technology, transportation, etc. In terms of restaurant quality and choice, I think better ingredients and general historical development have made many restaurants better, but I also think at both the fast-food and middle-market price points the chains have on the whole been damaging to diversity. It's also worth noting for about the millionth time that the food at Burger King, McDonald's, and just about every other long-standing fast-food chain used to be significantly better than it is today: they used to use mostly fresh, higher-quality, less processed products.

But I think kangarool is making an argument about taste from a cultural standpoint, not from a product-availability standpoint. The point is simply that for a large segment of the population the improved choices we have now are going unchosen, and that the phenomenon is attributable in large part to a downward spiral of taste reinforced by the increasing dominance of fast-food chains.

Maybe the situation is somewhat different in Canada, which has perhaps the most open immigration policy in the developed world, but what I see here in our major cities (and a surprising number of smaller ones) is an explosion of mom and pop type restaurants offering food from all over the world.

In our smallest towns, I'd argue that the arrival of McDonalds (it's usually McDonalds) actually was a big improvement over the often poisonous and invariably unpalatable Chinese/greasy spoon menu at what was often the only dining spot in town.

Edited October 23, 2003 by fresco (log)