Rick Bayless and Burger King - Part 2

[Chris Cognac]

Maybe they will come up with an Italian version and get Mario! I can see Ming doing the Asian sandwhich too.

[Jason Perlow]

Maybe they will come up with an Italian version and get Mario! I can see Ming doing the Asian sandwhich too.

I hear David Ruggierio is looking for work!

Maybe Nick Stellino would be better, he doesnt have a criminal record! Plus, he has sponsors like Swanson broth, so we know he's ok with commerically produced crap.

[eliotmorgan]

Here's what I think of the Bayless meal in detail:

The Sandwich at 350 calories is actually flavorful, but the baguette is the bright yellow kind you’d find at an Au bon Pain, and it’s actually soft. The whole point of a baguette is crust, so this is indeed a negative. The chicken is white meat and has faux hibachi grill marks, like the kind served on a 2 hour plus flight. That said, for fast food it is respectable. It’s not like a McRib, it is actually an intact piece of meat. The grilled peppers and sauce were also respectable at this price point and had no off flavors.

It comes with a 4 oz salad of tomato, iceberg lettuce, radicchio, and carrot batons. A 16.9 fl oz (1.05pt) 500 ml Aquafina non-carbonated water comes with the “combo.” Total price $4.89. Actually $5.17 with tax.

I chose the Ranch dressing by Kraft, which comes in a one ounce packet (28.35g) which is fat free and considered a full serving at 40 calories. With the exception of this which does indeed have preservatives, Xanthan gum, artificial color, monosodium glutamate, yellow dye number 5. You don’t have to put it on, if the above puts you off. I tasted it for this review and prefer the salad alone. It was crunchy and not wilted.

I decided to buy this again because I simply called the sandwich ($2.89) palatable. It is indeed that. I wanted to give more details though. I do believe it’s better than most of the junk BK and McDonald’s offers. This I believe is good news for those who find themselves to busy to seek out a proper meal (we're American's and we don't have Siesta's); and its good news for the economically disadvantaged who frequent these places anyway.

Would an eGullet person seek out this meal or prefer to eat this meal to a sit down dinner? Or even a Cosi or Panera Bread Sandwhich? Of course not.

I’m putting on my asbestos suit now Steven

[Fat Guy]

I pretty much agree with that evaluation, with three exceptions: 1) I think it may not be an intact piece of meat, but rather may be a very convincing fake; 2) as per the other Burger King thread I think a properly made Whopper is the better sandwich; 3) I think less of the topping than you do.

Edited October 16, 2003 by Fat Guy (log)

[Fat Guy]

Basically, it seems to be a Chicken Whopper reconfigured on a longer bun and topped with all that faux-Southwestern crap instead of the usual Whopper crap. But, while both are pretty crappy, the standard Whopper crap toppings are a lot better than the toppings on the Southwest Chicken Baguette or whatever they're calling it. The veg and the sauce are just awful -- the sandwich is totally overpowered by the greasy vegetal taste of the green peppers and the sauce is at a very low level even for a commercial barbecue-type sauce. As for the chicken patty itself, it is totally palatable -- certainly better (though also more unholy) than a lot of dry tasteless chicken breasts I've been served in people's homes. The bread, well, it's standard-issue mass-produced fluffy white stuff without any crust or interesting flavor or texture. Nothing out of the ordinary. In other words, everything about the sandwich was okay except the Southwestern parts.

I also must go on record and point out that I used the word "palatable" first!

[Dave the Cook]

I picked up one of these sandwiches in Easley, SC, on the way to Varmint's last week. Based on other reports on this thread, it must have been some sort of mistake, but the "baguette" I got was nice and crusty on the outside. It was still sort of wetly cottonish beneath, but the outside was quite different than anything I've previously been served at BK -- an improvement, I think, especially when compared with standard fast food buns. Alas, it seems to be a localized phenomenon.

As for the chicken, I didn't look closely, since I was hurtling towards Raleigh at 85 mph, but I believe it was a chopped-and-formed affair. There was no discernable grain in the meat, and none of the shredding that characterizes a natural chicken breast. It just sort of mingled itself with the rest of the ingredients upon contact with saliva.

This makes it sound worse than it was. I didn't think it was a terrible fast-food sandwich. In fact, with the exception of the Whopper Junior and BK onion rings (and now the friedclam/FG method Whopper), it was easily the best thing I've gotten at BK in years.

OK, that's not saying much. Still, it's hardly the work of the devil. If I were in a hurry, and BK was my only fast-food choice, it's probably what I'd order.

[jilly rizzo]

i think the most obvious choice for 'chicken'

would be jeff smith

aka

'the frug'

-back door man, inc.

[eliotmorgan]

I picked up one of these sandwiches in Easley, SC, on the way to Varmint's last week. Based on other reports on this thread, it must have been some sort of mistake, but the "baguette" I got was nice and crusty on the outside. It was still sort of wetly cottonish beneath, but the outside was quite different than anything I've previously been served at BK -- an improvement, I think, especially when compared with standard fast food buns. Alas, it seems to be a localized phenomenon.

As for the chicken, I didn't look closely, since I was hurtling towards Raleigh at 85 mph, but I believe it was a chopped-and-formed affair. There was no discernable grain in the meat, and none of the shredding that characterizes a natural chicken breast.

Dave, mine was not crusty, but since the baguette is purportedly made “in house” there may be variations. I’ve eaten one in Chicago, and one in Omaha, Nebraska. You and Steve are probably right about the meat. Maybe I wasn’t attentive enough. Usually the protein in a fast food joint is something to be masked with spices. I’m accustomed to ignoring it. I’ll see next time.

Bayless says it's a step in the right direction. For reasons I stated above I agree.

[Jinmyo]

There's a magnetic version coming out with placebo chiles.

[ScorchedPalate]

...it must have been some sort of mistake, but the "baguette" I got was nice and crusty on the outside. It was still sort of wetly cottonish beneath, but the outside was quite different than anything I've previously been served at BK -- an improvement, I think, especially when compared with standard fast food buns. Alas, it seems to be a localized phenomenon.

This post kinda makes me wonder if some (most?) of the outlets missed the memo on the "finish baking" part of the prep and are just using the parcooked baguettes as the finished deal. Actually I had toyed with that idea before, but assumed the disconnect was more likely the cause of over-ambitious marketing spin rather than faulty preparation.

Not having eaten (or even seen) one, though, this is purely conjecture. But I wonder if the "finish baking" step is just designed to put a crust on the bread, rather than do any actual baking...

[The Little Blue House]

Having lived in Chicago for 5 years, I had respect for Bayless. This summer I stole his margarita recipe off of the Spledid Table page--and introduced several light-beer-swilling-boat-going friends to the idea that margaritas are even better when you ditch the margarita mix and use decent liquor.

But, then we saw this commerical... And in those first moments, Rick Bayless's head was on the screen, and we were happy and maybe a little home sick, until the Burger King thing became apparent.

Other chefs in Chicago have turned this sort of thing down. And now I am sort of happy about living on the other side of the world where the chefs go at any little local ad campaign and we never have to develop the delusion that they are not for sale.

Edited October 17, 2003 by The Little Blue House (log)

[TrishCT]

I'm surprised A. Bourdain hasn't been approached to shill for BK... after all, he eats scary stuff...

Edited October 17, 2003 by TrishCT (log)

[tanabutler]

I have been too busy with work this week to attend eGullet much...and have skipped several pages of posts in here just now.

I did receive a reply from Betsy Johnson, whom I wrote a month ago about this brouhaha. She forwarded Rick Bayless's statement (the one that appears on his Frontera site), along with a letter that went out to members of the Chef's Collaborative. It is quite poignant, in a way, and I think they took the high ground with it.

She said in her e-mail to me, "We meet this weekend face-to-face, and hope to build upon and mature as an organization from these recent events."

Here is the letter to CC members.

(Emphasis mine, below.)

October 3, 2003

Dear Member:

As members of Chefs Collaborative we all share certain fundamental beliefs, which are expressed in the Statement of Principles adopted ten years ago. We do not all share, however, the same approaches.  As a large organization, Chefs Collaborative contains, and welcomes, many different backgrounds, beliefs, and methods. In our own ways, we are all taking steps toward sustainable cuisine and supporting local and artisanal producers.

Confusion can arise, however, when board members endorse products or companies. I am writing to you at this time to clarify where the organization stands regarding endorsements by board members.

Personal endorsements on the part of individual board members do not represent endorsements by the Collaborative or necessarily represent its views. When Chefs Collaborative partners with an organization, the entire board of overseers considers whether the potential partner’s missions and core values are compatible with the mission of the Collaborative. While the organization has not had an official policy regarding a board member’s responsibility to inform the board prior to endorsements, consultancies, or investments, the board has recently realized the need for such a policy and is in the process of drafting one.

Chefs Collaborative prides itself on being the only professional culinary organization dedicated to delivering information and stimulating discussion about the environment and our food supply. As individuals in the food community, we are all motivated by quality products and extraordinary ingredients. Collectively, we really can make a difference toward creating a more delicious and sustainable food supply. Thank you for being a part of Chefs Collaborative.

Sincerely,

Peter Hoffman

National Chair

Statement of Principles

1. Food is fundamental to life. It nourishes us in body and soul, and the sharing of food immeasurably enriches our sense of community.

2. Good, safe wholesome food is a basic human right.

3. Society has the obligation to make good, pure food affordable and accessible to all.

4. Good food begins with unpolluted air, land and water, environmentally sustainable farming and fishing, and humane animal husbandry.

5. Sound food choices emphasize locally grown, seasonally fresh, and whole or minimally processed ingredients.

6. Cultural and biological diversity is essential for the health of the planet and its inhabitants. Preserving and revitalizing sustainable food and agricultural traditions strengthen the diversity.

7. The healthy traditional diets of many cultures offer abundant evidence that fruits, vegetables, beans, breads, and grains are the foundations of good diets.

8. As part of their education, our children deserve to be taught basic cooking skills and to learn the impact of their food choices on themselves, on their culture, and on their environment.

Here is my reply to Betsy:

Dear Betsy,

Many thanks for sending this along. I believe Rick's statement below was linked at his website, and someone posted it at eGullet.

I can't help but say I think he's kidding himself about the taint factor.

There are now over 800 posts at eGullet on this subject (I believe that is some kind of record for a thread that isn't "What We Had for Dinner"—an ongoing, never-ending series of people posting exactly that—or some popular eGulleteer's chattering bio thread). I believe I am correct in saying that, in most cases, people are doubtful and skeptical. 

I don't decry eating at Burger King—I've had to do it myself. My bottom line is: how can a man who helped create the charter for a splendid group like Chefs Collaborative sell out and do a commercial for Burger King? It is a tremendous disconnect, and all the blandishments in the world cannot convince me that the disparity between your organization and a fast-food multinational corporation is too vast for any hand-holding.

I am sad to say so. I don't think horrible thoughts about Rick Bayless, but I think he's seriously deluded about the impact of doing a commercial for BK. What next? Alice Waters for Kool-Aid?

Were I a member of CC, instead of just a big-mouth with a camera and a keyboard, I'd be asking more serious questions. I'd probably be asking to have his name removed from the Board of Overseers, or resigning my own membership in disgust. I bet you are fielding plenty of outrage, assuming that CC people have televisions and computers.

I wish you the very best of luck in your endeavors. I applaud the efforts of your group.

And on a brighter note, I spent last weekend in New York, where we toured and dined at the in-construction Stone Barns Agricultural Center in Sleepy Hollow. Blue Hill restaurant provided a multi-course feast, and it was sublime. I've now attended 22 dinners with Outstanding in the Field, and it took my breath away—the food was perfect and the team simply unparalleled. I envy you your proximity.

Again, my thanks to you, with respect for your fine work.

Sincerely,

Tana Butler

So. I await with interest the outcome of the weekend meetings. They're a good group. I think Rick Bayless is perhaps not a sell-out, but incredibly naïve. To a fault.

[claire797]

I'm surprised A. Bourdain hasn't been approached to shill for BK...  after all, he eats scary stuff...

snort.

[Jinmyo]

I'm surprised A. Bourdain hasn't been approached to shill for BK...  after all, he eats scary stuff...

snort.

I think he had that in Bangalore. Wrapped around scorpion eyes, I think it was.

Bangalore, Ohio.

[mrsadm]

Other chefs in Chicago have turned this sort of thing down.  And now I am sort of happy about living on the other side of the world where the chefs go at any little local ad campaign and we never have to develop the delusion  that they are not for sale.

I wonder if anyone here remembers the BBC show "Chef" starring Lenny Henry (very funny show). There was one episode where he was going into business with partners for his restaurant and one of them proposed he endorse some boil-in-the-bag food products. "The markup will be a disgrace! We'll make a packet" he said.

[myjdk]

I'm almost scared to post this, due to negative bashers, but I will against my best judgment. I worked at BK in High School 13 yrs. ago for about 2 years. Made the best friends of my life and had fun in the process.

I agree with the general opinion that a great deal of americans are heavier than we should be and eat way too many processed foods.

I also agree that the amount of time we have to spend working to support our families (this should be the issue, not what fast food we eat, ) allows us little time to cook the healthy foods our families needs to thrive.

I support burger king in their effort to provide healthier good-tasting alternatives to the usual double cheese burger with sized up fries and cokes.

Maybe this is what Rick Bayless and others are trying to support. There are better options out there even if your too busy to cook. Maybe It's not such much whether you are a sought-after professional chef - but trying to support a more open-minded, tastier, and healthier way of serving better food to your family.

Just my guess!

[fifi]

Welcome... Oh brave one.

Actually, I agree with you. It is just too bad that Bayless has been known to be out on the idealistic fringe (my opinion) with his involvement in Chef's Cooperative and this move seems to fly in the face of that. While I might agree with his "You have to start somewhere." approach (imminently practical), given his known position before this, the move damages his credability. I think that is the crux of the argument here, as best I can tell.

[myjdk]

Oh Boy! I know I'm really going to regret this - but here goes.

I made my post about Rick & Burger King w/out really reading other posts. But the 1st response I read was from FIFI (Thanks!) mentioning the Chefs Collaborative. I decided to scan the other postings to find out what this was about and it made me a little mad. Maybe I'm misunderstanding but:

1. Food being fundamental to life - this is correct - and there are many people starving in the US right now, who cannot afford to pay for even the basic necessities.

2. Good food being a Basic Human Right - this is correct and again the response is listed above.

3. Obligation to make good food affordable and accessable to all - response is the same as above. So many people cannot afford to even buy the minimum to support their families.

[SobaAddict70]

Oh Boy!  I know I'm really going to regret this -  but here goes. 

I made my post about Rick & Burger King w/out really reading other posts.  But the 1st response I read was from FIFI (Thanks!) mentioning the Chefs Collaborative.  I decided to scan the other postings to find out what this was about and it made me a little mad.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding but:

1.  Food being fundamental to life - this is correct - and there are many people starving in the US right now,      who cannot afford to pay for even the basic necessities.

2.  Good food being a Basic Human Right - this is correct and again the response is listed above.

3.  Obligation to make good food affordable and accessable to all - response is the same as above.  So many people cannot afford to even buy the minimum to support their families.

Welcome, fellow BK worker.

Some posters' contentions are in fact, that the sandwich isn't good -- given that matters of taste vary from person to person. If Bayless had thrown his not inconsiderable efforts towards promoting say, a low-cost or otherwise affordable sandwich made with fresh, non-processed ingredients and sold at a sandwich shop such as Subway or Au Bon Pain or some equivalent thereof, this wouldn't be a 20+ page thread and people wouldn't have gotten hot and bothered (well, mostly).

But he did and it has, so...

Soba

[Nick]

1.  Food being fundamental to life - this is correct - and there are many people starving in the US right now,       who cannot afford to pay for even the basic necessities.

2.  Good food being a Basic Human Right - this is correct and again the response is listed above.

3.  Obligation to make good food affordable and accessable to all - response is the same as above.  So many people cannot afford to even buy the minimum to support their families.

I'll take issue with that. I've lived through some pretty hard times and always managed to eat. If nothing else, there's always brown rice, beans, and squash (winter and summer.) It gets a little tiresome meal after meal, but it keeps you going.

Maybe if all these people you're talking about would lay off the milk and sugar and find some real food they'd get along a little better.

Just my two cents.

Edited October 19, 2003 by Nick (log)

[ExtraMSG]

I'll take issue with that. I've lived through some pretty hard times and always managed to eat. If nothing else, there's always brown rice, beans, and squash (winter and summer.) It gets a little tiresome meal after meal, but it keeps you going.

Maybe if all these people you're talking about would lay off the milk and sugar and find some real food they'd get along a little better.

Just to note from the beginning, I grew up rather poor, so I do have some experience with this....

I think the biggest issue for families on this front is just time. It takes time to cook good quality food. I'm an experienced amateur cook and I probably spend on average at least an hour a day cooking for my wife. Of course, I try to make most things from scratch. But "from scratch" is what keeps prices low. You start buying Minute Rice, whole grain breads, pizza crusts, pre-cut chicken, stock, frozen vegetables, etc, you have to either give up quality or money. If you make them from scratch, you have to give up time. And that's assuming you can cook better than Budget Gourmet or Burger King, which sadly, many people can't.

As I discussed with Fat Guy, people either make food from scratch out of necessity or luxury. For me, it's a luxury. But few people in the US are so poor that they can only afford to make food from scratch. For most -- especially in families where both parents work, or like my family growing up, a single parent household --, it's worth it to save time and buy fast food, which although it's not as cheap as making food from scratch, is a heck of a lot cheaper than even the mediocre chains like Friday's or Olive Garden. Either that or they buy things they can make in under a half hour, like Budget Gourmet. I was lucky, even with how busy my single-mom waitress was, she always made food. She essentially worked and came home and worked some more. I don't blame families like mine who do it differently. It's totally understandable. I just think in some aspects my mom was a hero always sacrificing for me. Of course, to some extent, I had to get off my ass and do things for myself and pick up the slack, too.

That's why, even though she gets on my nerves, 30 Minute Meals with Rachel Ray is actually an important show and why I'm going to look into this week starting a program for teaching working people how to cook fast, affordable, healthy, and tasty meals.

As for RB and BK, I think the condemnation is out of proportion. He's probably a little hypocritical as I bet most of the Chef's Collaborative people are because of the unrealistic nature of their endeavor. Look at their mission statement. It's just politics veiled in nebulous statements that few would disagree with on the face of them. Give me something meaningful and specific, for goodness sake. What RB has done is just a more public and possibly slightly more egregious violation of the naive mission statement than what any other restaurant owner who belongs to Chefs Collaborative probably does. eg, how many of these chefs on the board serve Niman ranch meats? How many serve Copper River salmon? Can a group that supposedly supports local products all be serving the same stuff across the nation -- showing pride that they are by noting it on the menus -- and still be upholding the mission of CC? Are chefs in California when they make mediterranean foods "Cultural and biological diversity is essential for the health of the planet and its inhabitants. Preserving and revitalizing sustainable food and agricultural traditions strengthen that diversity"? What about those in NY using Asian ingredients and techniques? Finally, I think there's an internal conflict in their mission because they assume so much aesthetically rather than scientifically, as with their dislike for non-organic foods and a vegetarian lifestyle (though not specifically stated, I don't know how else to understand mission goal 7 which ignores all meats).

[Nick]

It's a sad commentary on the state of the nation when there is not time to cook the simplest of foods.

[fifi]

I don't think it is the "state of the nation" as much as it is the state of the family and the priorities within the family. I know too many families that never eat together because "soccer mom" is chasing all of the kids "organized activities" and these things seem to take precedence over family time around the table with food lovingly prepared and shared. And I am talking about folks who can afford the best. Sad.

[Nick]

Fifi, it is the state of the nation and it's truly unfortunate whether you're a soccer mom with no time or a poor person that can't pick out good rice and beans from poor rice and beans. We're headed down the tubes.