Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment, 2012

[Robert Jueneman]

One last thing -- you said the pork belly ended up puffing up; like a balloon. I'm assuming you meant the bag puffed up, and not the meat itself?

Yep, the bag. It's become second nature for me to double-seal both edges and I'm really glad I did! The bag was so tight I was worried it would pop just by being touched, but it held together and I could only detect the very faintest smell. But that was enough to know it was bad...

It also occurred to me that maybe the apple juice I used fermented, possibly given a helping hand by the slug of cheap & cheerful sherry I also added.

But despite the disappointment it has been a very valuable learning experience and I really appreciate your input.

Cheers.

I hadn't thought about the apple juice fermenting, nor the alcohol that PedroG commented on, so those were useful inputs.

In retrospect (i.e., water under the bridge), I really wish that you had opened the bag to see what it smelled like. I would think that spoilage bacteria might be one thing, fermented apple juice another, and alcohol yet another.

"The only way to avoid making mistakes is through experience. Unfortunately, the only way to gain experience is by making mistakes!"

[jrshaul]

Has anyone here done chuck steaks? I've heard these are very nice cooked medium (~53C), but I've also heard that ~65C is required to break down the connective tissue.

[Anna N]

Has anyone here done chuck steaks? I've heard these are very nice cooked medium (~53C), but I've also heard that ~65C is required to break down the connective tissue.

Depends on what you mean by "chuck steaks". If you google such things the cut has names all over the place. This is a "chuck eye" cooked at 56C for 12 hours and I can't tell you how good it is. I hope not too many people catch on to this cut! It is the best meat bargain I have come across.

[rotuts]

i do 'chuck' ie shoulder all the time. Its my preferred beef cut: its inexpensive and has great beef flavor. I get it on sale and make sure its the largest chunk they have or they cut a new one for me: i prefer to separate the individual muscles and line them up in the bag so I know the grain direction for cutting. i also get rid of extra gobs of fat.

I like rare so I use 131 for 48 hrs +

the tastey est meat after a SV. I dont think it will be popular as it requires SV. The 'blade roast' a part of the chuck has become popular in spite of the tendon down the middle and is now $$ it has terrific flavor and can be cooked fast as a traditional steak.

[Toufas]

I made 18h pork belly @ 60c, it was very nice, but not meltingly tender

I am now making a 36h @ 60c one to test the differences.

Any recommendations for ox cheeks? I am thinking of making a reduction with stout,honey and stock , searing the cheeks and then sealing them with the reduction. Any idea on the cooking time and temp?

[rotuts]

SV ground meats? your views?

trader joes has a 'just sauce' turkey Bolognese thats not bad. not egullet, but not bad.

this has had me thinking: A Long Time Ago i made decent bolognese with Grd. meat in a big pot, etc etc then froze portions in plastic containers etcetc and well they were good enough but with the essence of freezer added in.

TJ's "just sauce" has a massive amount of NaCl in it also.

so the next time ground turkey goes on sale ill give it a try: Why? im a big fan of SV/Chill/Freeze. No essence of freezer added!

In the past by the Pot method Id add cream to the brief browing of the meat ( or a panade of bread and milk ) as that was thought to coat the proteins in some way that kept them from completely denaturing and becoming tough. it did taste good and tender.

would this step be necessary for SV at say 140? these would be in bags of about 10oz/bag. Id rather leave it out if the cream/panade with SV is irrrelevant.

Id of course make up the defficit with a larger piece of cheeze grated on the pasta!

thoughts and times? many thanks.

[jrshaul]

Can anyone else suggest cheap SV-appropriate cuts of meat? I'm getting tired of chicken.

I'd also be interested in some SV-able sauces. A question: Has anyone had weird results from including alcohol in the bag?

[ScottyBoy]

You need to cook off the alcohol before you bag it.

[rotuts]

you want 'chuck' big pieces of 'Chuck'

peel them off into individual pieces

you are done.

[jrshaul]

I just cooked a slice of chuck for ~12 hours at 53C. It came out kind of stringy - to be honest, very chuck-like. The flavor was very good, though.

According to meat smoking websites, higher temperatures (~170F) are required to dissolve the collagen into gelatin. I see people cooking short ribs much lower than that, though. What sort of temperature should I be looking for?

[Paul Kierstead]

It is practical to cook for much longer times in SV then smoking, so your guidance on temperatures will be different. 48 and 72 hour cook times are not uncommon in SV, especially for tough cuts. Remember, it is temperature and time that count.

[FoodMan]

I just cooked a slice of chuck for ~12 hours at 53C. It came out kind of stringy - to be honest, very chuck-like. The flavor was very good, though.

According to meat smoking websites, higher temperatures (~170F) are required to dissolve the collagen into gelatin. I see people cooking short ribs much lower than that, though. What sort of temperature should I be looking for?

Not that the meat smoking websites are wrong per se, but they miss the point a bit. Cooking chuck at 53C for 12 hours is not enough to tenderize it. Like Paul said it is both Time and Temperature that matter when dissolving collagen (or pasteurizing meat or for any other cooking process). Collagen starts to dissolve at a much lower temperature than 170F, more like 130F (54.5C) or even a bit lower. However at those low temperature you will need more time. So, for tough cuts like chuck or short ribs you will need to go for 48 hours or more at those temperatures. Cooking the meat at 170F(76C) will tenderize it much quicker but will not give you the nice steak-like texture and color you are looking for. It will be more like a braised cut of beef.

[jrshaul]

Thanks for the info - the loss is only about $3 all up, and 55C for 24h+ should give a very nice result. The flavor was much, much better than any previous use of chuck.

Can anyone else recommend some other economical meat options four sous vide?

[PedroG]

Can anyone else suggest cheap SV-appropriate cuts of meat? I'm getting tired of chicken.

I'd also be interested in some SV-able sauces. A question: Has anyone had weird results from including alcohol in the bag?

You need to cook off the alcohol before you bag it.

See the Wikipedia article on cooking off alcohol and the USDA Table of Nutrient Retention Factors (page 12, retention codes 5001-5010) -> it takes many hours to cook off most of the alcohol in a sauce, after 2.5hr cooking there is still 5% of the alcohol retained.

[Robert Jueneman]

The enzymatic tenderization of meat (muscle, not collagen) is at its peak at around 48-50C. So try cooking chuck for four hours at that temperature, then increase it to 55C and hold it there for another 20 hours or even longer, up to 48 hours, in order to both pasteurize it and gelatinize the collagen.

[Charcuterer]

I'm real new to this but find I am using it A LOT too. I bought an external sealer and have been using ziplocs for marinated meats. That Vacmaster VP112 has been calling out to me, but how heavy/unwieldy is it? Do you find that you really have to leave it out? I wish I had enough counter space for that, but....

M61376,

I got my VP112 yesterday and let me tell you it's a beast. I cleared a space for it in my pantry but it is too long for the cabinet top. (the top is only 16 inches deep) I don't know what I'm going to do with the monster but I LOVE the thing and I have only used it once! The weight is manageable for me but I don't think my wife would be able to muscle it around and I'd hate to think about dropping it! These are all minor issues to me considering what it can do.

[cbread]

Haven't got a sealer yet. But, I'm thinking that when/if I do, I might get a dedicated cart for the sealer so there would be no manhandling needed.

[m61376]

Has anyone here done chuck steaks? I've heard these are very nice cooked medium (~53C), but I've also heard that ~65C is required to break down the connective tissue.

131 degrees for 24 hours, just a simple spice dry rub and sear afterwards- amazing texture, flavor and softness, akin to the finest filet but more flavorful.

[m61376]

The enzymatic tenderization of meat (muscle, not collagen) is at its peak at around 48-50C. So try cooking chuck for four hours at that temperature, then increase it to 55C and hold it there for another 20 hours or even longer, up to 48 hours, in order to both pasteurize it and gelatinize the collagen.

Isn't it dangerous to keep the meat for four hours at the ideal temperature for enzymatic pasteurization? I'm trying to get a handle on all this so I may be totally wrong, but I thought that keeping it at 48-50 C was inadvisable due to bacteria, and that over 130:F (~54.5 C) was ideal for safety concerns.

I have to say that 131F for 24 hours came out amazing, although it did take a bit of getting used to seeing that greenish hue to the exterior before searing. Once seared, though, it looked great and the taste was perfection.

[m61376]

I'm real new to this but find I am using it A LOT too. I bought an external sealer and have been using ziplocs for marinated meats. That Vacmaster VP112 has been calling out to me, but how heavy/unwieldy is it? Do you find that you really have to leave it out? I wish I had enough counter space for that, but....

M61376,

I got my VP112 yesterday and let me tell you it's a beast. I cleared a space for it in my pantry but it is too long for the cabinet top. (the top is only 16 inches deep) I don't know what I'm going to do with the monster but I LOVE the thing and I have only used it once! The weight is manageable for me but I don't think my wife would be able to muscle it around and I'd hate to think about dropping it! These are all minor issues to me considering what it can do.

Thanks- that's what I was afraid of. My dreams are crushed, although it would be a good excuse to redo the kitchen :-) I guess I'll just have to settle for the ziploc bags when using marinades.

[Toufas]

I am lucky enough to have access to some iberico pork. I have a peace of pressa (its near the shoulderblade), i have eaten it lots of times cooked medium to medium rare. What temperature should I cook it sous vide?

[PedroG]

I'm real new to this but find I am using it A LOT too. I bought an external sealer and have been using ziplocs for marinated meats. That Vacmaster VP112 has been calling out to me, but how heavy/unwieldy is it? Do you find that you really have to leave it out? I wish I had enough counter space for that, but....

M61376,

I got my VP112 yesterday and let me tell you it's a beast. I cleared a space for it in my pantry but it is too long for the cabinet top. (the top is only 16 inches deep) I don't know what I'm going to do with the monster but I LOVE the thing and I have only used it once! The weight is manageable for me but I don't think my wife would be able to muscle it around and I'd hate to think about dropping it! These are all minor issues to me considering what it can do.

Thanks- that's what I was afraid of. My dreams are crushed, although it would be a good excuse to redo the kitchen :-) I guess I'll just have to settle for the ziploc bags when using marinades.

See upthread and here how to seal liquids using an edge sealer, no need for a chamber machine. If your marinade is rather creamy than liquid, wrapping in cling film before bagging will do.

[jrshaul]

Isn't it dangerous to keep the meat for four hours at the ideal temperature for enzymatic pasteurization? I'm trying to get a handle on all this so I may be totally wrong, but I thought that keeping it at 48-50 C was inadvisable due to bacteria, and that over 130:F (~54.5 C) was ideal for safety concerns.

I have to say that 131F for 24 hours came out amazing, although it did take a bit of getting used to seeing that greenish hue to the exterior before searing. Once seared, though, it looked great and the taste was perfection.

I'm a little nervous about the safety issue myself. I'll probably cook from 55+ from now on.

On a related note, I've been informed that part of the problem is that lignin - unlike collagen - doesn't dissolve when you cook it. I'm not very good at telling the difference, though. How do I find an SV-appropriate piece of meat?

[EnriqueB]

I am lucky enough to have access to some iberico pork. I have a peace of pressa (its near the shoulderblade), i have eaten it lots of times cooked medium to medium rare. What temperature should I cook it sous vide?

Hi Toufas, I cook "presa ibérica" at 55ºC, time just to get the 55ºC to the core as determined by tables, then a quick sear.

Edited February 3, 2012 by EnriqueB (log)

[Toufas]

I am lucky enough to have access to some iberico pork. I have a peace of pressa (its near the shoulderblade), i have eaten it lots of times cooked medium to medium rare. What temperature should I cook it sous vide?

Hi Toufas, I cook "presa ibérica" at 55ºC, time just to get the 55ºC to the core as determined by tables, then a quick sear.

Amazing meat isn't it?

Do you mean these tables: ?

Edited February 3, 2012 by Toufas (log)