Tired of the Alice Waters Backlash - Are You?

[daisy17]

I will happily chime in as someone who is not irritated or annoyed by Alice Waters. I love her quirkiness, her enthusiasm, her idealism, her legacy and her message. (Given how many people *do* annoy me, it is somewhat a miracle that Alice has escaped unscathed.)

I can't think of anyone else who has done more to shape America's modern culinary direction than Alice Waters - other than possibly beloved Julia (I've had this debate; not having it again. ) She may be an idealist, but someone needs to be. I've never taken her idealism to mean that my doing some, but not all, of what she does or stands for, is second rate.

No, we certainly can't expect the single mom of two on a Wal-Mart salary to be going to the farmer's market and spend $5 on a bunch of ramps.

But why is it that the single mom raising two kids on a Wal-Mart salary is usually the one buying the largest size of Coca-Cola and filling her kids up on fish sticks and french fries?

Stereotype much?

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Stereotype? Huh? This is how our country eats. Thank you, Alice Waters, for trying to educate people and get kids enthusiastic about growing and eating real food!

[djyee100]

I met Alice Waters only once, very briefly. She came across to me as something of an old world traditionalist, idealistic, snobby (she made a disparaging comment about Mission olives), strong-willed, sweet, humorous, and helpful with a question I had. She has her strengths and weaknesses like everybody else, so let her be a human being.

I agree that her ideal of seasonal organic food is very difficult, if not impossible to meet. I've put $6 organic melons back on the grocery shelf, believe me. But by setting such a high ideal, she has moved the world along, so I focus on that.

As for the preachiness, I can only say that communication is a two-way street, and what someone hears is not necessarily what the speaker intends. For great idealists, the ideal is attainable for everyone--whether or not those other people agree! Alice Waters has the great certainty of people who start things.

[rancho_gordo]

I can't think of anyone else who has done more to shape America's modern culinary direction than Alice Waters  - other than possibly beloved Julia (I've had this debate; not having it again.  ) 

Sorry. I missed the debate!

What is it exactly that she did that has changed things?

[CKatCook]

She gets on my nerves a little too. I mean if (by some strange chance) everyone started eating local and organic there would be a lot of jobs lost for those that work in industries that grow and supply non organic food. And maybe there is some people that just simply don't mind the fact their food is not organic? It just isn't going to work for everyone, I think.

[Andrew Fenton]

I can't think of anyone else who has done more to shape America's modern culinary direction than Alice Waters  - other than possibly beloved Julia (I've had this debate; not having it again.  ) 

Sorry. I missed the debate!

What is it exactly that she did that has changed things?

Before Alice Waters, we cooked our eggs in a pan. Now we know to cook them one at a time, in a spoon, using the wood-fired ovens in our kitchens.

[Busboy]

I can't think of anyone else who has done more to shape America's modern culinary direction than Alice Waters  - other than possibly beloved Julia (I've had this debate; not having it again.  ) 

Sorry. I missed the debate!

What is it exactly that she did that has changed things?

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She helped create the market for heirloom beans.

Hey, how come you don't sell tarbais, anyway?

[lala]

Encouraging organic gardening so that pesticides don't ruin the earth and our bodies - bad?

Encouraging children to garden so that they know where their food comes from - bad?

Linking gardening, cooking and science lessons in schools - bad?

Experiencing culture, history, language, ecology, and mathematics through the preparation of food - bad?

Believing in your message and practicing what you preach - bad?

Mentoring dozens of the best chefs, who then go on to mentor others - bad?

Yeah, she's a real byotch.

[weinoo]

Sorry. I missed the debate!

What is it exactly that she did that has changed things?

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My goal is to support Northern California agriculture but there are some instances where the best quality means sourcing outside of my state.

Above quote from the Rancho Gordo website sounds strangely familiar...was that website around 30 years ago?

[rancho_gordo]

Sorry. I missed the debate!

What is it exactly that she did that has changed things?

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My goal is to support Northern California agriculture but there are some instances where the best quality means sourcing outside of my state.

Above quote from the Rancho Gordo website sounds strangely familiar...was that website around 30 years ago?

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Are you crediting her for that? The localvore movement?

I'm not saying she wasn't a part of it, I just want to make sure I understand your point.

From Busboy:

She helped create the market for heirloom beans. laugh.gif

Then I owe her big time!

Hey, how come you don't sell tarbais, anyway?

Have you had them? They're no big whoop, as we used to say. And a horrendous yield. Come next winter, try the white runners we'll have and you'll be happy. I think I've seen true Tarbais for up to $30 a pound.

[weinoo]

My point, as I stated in the first post of this topic, was:

It seems like barely a week goes by without some sort of backlash/tirade against Alice Waters.

And I'm trying to understand that. I'm glad it's acknowledged that she was at least part of the reason for the local food movement, as well as the movement to support sustainable agriculture, community gardens, nutritional education and cooking eggs over a fire.

[Sneakeater]

There's an Alice Waters backlash because she won't acknowledge this:

You might be surprised to find that there are plenty of people out there -- hard-working, decent people with limited free time trying to feed their families and stay sane -- who think those who are down on fast food are paternalistic, condescending and out-of-touch. They are grateful for the convenience that the chains offer.

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[andiesenji]

I have long been appalled at the "trashing" of Alice Waters by people who should know better, but the fact that they say or write these things, shows that they haven't a clue, much less good manners.

I first visited her restaurant back in the mid '70s, not a long time after it had opened and my friends and I were impressed. (A group of women attending a writers conference for women in Berkeley.)

She has been generous with her time in advising and helping the Berkeley school system to greatly improve the food served in the school cafeterias, resulting in much healthier children.

My daughter and a group of her students, who are participants in the Jefferson awards program attempting to improve the school cafeteria offerings in the Livermore school system, were invited to meet with her last month and were treated with courtesy and given a significant amount of her time and a great deal of help.

Incidentally, they won the top award for the State of California and will be going to D.C. for the national competition in June.

This fact alone, that she is not just hyping the use of fresh, locally grown foods, for her own profit, but for the betterment of her community and others, is enough to convince me that she is doing it right.

Anyone who thinks differently is either unable to comprehend the importance of her contributions or DOESN'T want to believe because they want to sell their articles.

[weinoo]

There's an Alice Waters backlash because she won't acknowledge this:

You might be surprised to find that there are plenty of people out there -- hard-working, decent people with limited free time trying to feed their families and stay sane -- who think those who are down on fast food are paternalistic, condescending and out-of-touch. They are grateful for the convenience that the chains offer.

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Yet it is also true that perhaps due to AW's approach, many of those same fast food chains now offer "healthier" options, something which few, if any, did a mere 20 years ago.

[weinoo]

The NY Post, never afraid to steal a story while it's in play, joins the fray...GOURMONSTERS. Of course, they came up with a much better title than Ozersky could have. And they break the news thusly:

It's not enough that you should simply eat your fruit and veggies. No, in order to be virtuous they first must be preceded by fashionable adjectives such as local, organic and sustainable -- recession be damned.

[djyee100]

She has been generous with her time in advising and helping the Berkeley school system to greatly improve the food served in the school cafeterias, resulting in much healthier children.

I would add that her work and words inspire others to do what they can towards the ideals she espouses. Last year I was taking a cooking class in Berkeley, and I got into a conversation with the sous-chef for the class, an older guy and obviously a professional. He said he was a former exec chef, now retired, and he volunteered his time to teach Berkeley school kids how to cook. He told me he loved teaching those kids. I wonder if he would have had the idea to teach school kids to cook, or he would have had the opportunity to do so in the Berkeley public schools, if it weren't for Alice Waters.

[lala]

There's an Alice Waters backlash because she won't acknowledge this:

You might be surprised to find that there are plenty of people out there -- hard-working, decent people with limited free time trying to feed their families and stay sane -- who think those who are down on fast food are paternalistic, condescending and out-of-touch. They are grateful for the convenience that the chains offer.

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Yeah, fast food rocks. Until the diabetes sets in and the heart attacks start.

[faine]

I'm on the fence. I like her, I like her restaurant, and I think her contributions to the whole notion of locally sourced eating to an urban audience have been useful and valuable. From my meager understanding Chez Panisse pioneered the California cuisine movement that has now found its way into just about everything, and props for that. Although I really don't care to know the name, personality, and favorite color of the cow I am eating when it comes to that.

I also agree that she ain't the messenger the local and organic food movements need. She may be a wonderful woman but she simply isn't a populist, and she's not going to bring outsiders into the fold. As previously stated, she's going to have to figure out a way to address the aforementioned single-mom-on-welfare audience. As it is now, she's going to have a time getting them NOT to see her as a deity descending from Berkeley to preach among them. Good luck. She has a lot of good, lofty, and aesthetically pleasing ideas that need some serious tweaking before they have a hope in hell of succeeding in the real world.

I do think the Edible Schoolyard idea is great. We have one in New Orleans that is doing cool things. I hope to volunteer with them next year.

And yes, a meal of Coke and fish sticks really is cheaper then a meal composed of healthy food. Ask this poverty ridden college student about the price differential between fresh, good food and junk any day.

The Gourmonsters bit was a hoot.

Edited April 22, 2009 by faine (log)

[Fat Guy]

The backlash against Alice Waters, Michael Pollan and others of their ilk, such as it is, has occurred during the recent recession. I think that's too much of a coincidence to ignore. Right now anybody who has a message on the order of "pay more, eat less" (I think Pollan actually said those words or something close) is not as likely to be tolerated as he or she would have been two years ago.

My own consumer behavior and feelings track these macroeconomic changes. A couple of years ago, for example, I was buying organic eggs. It just didn't seem like a big deal to me to pay more for them. I figured I have a young child, I should do what I can. Now, I go grocery shopping and I see organic eggs for $3.99 a dozen when the conventional ones are $1.50, and I think, you know what, I'm not buying the organic ones until I'm presented with compelling evidence that they're better -- and as far as I know no such evidence exists. They don't taste better either. (Usually they taste worse simply because they're not as fresh.) You have to escalate to even more expensive Greenmarket eggs before you get flavor improvement that's only evident in some preparations anyway.

And I'm not exactly poor. I'm not all that well off but if I really needed to pay $3.99 for eggs instead of $1.50, I could. But real working-class people with families to feed don't have that luxury. When you multiply that kind of purchasing decision by the 30 products someone might pick up when shopping for a family, you're talking about the difference between $45 and $120 for a grocery bill. Week after week that can add up to several thousand dollars a year. We have something like 1/5 American households with household incomes under $20,000, if I'm reading the chart correctly.

Of course Alice Waters and Michael Pollan know all this, and it's an oversimplification of their positions to say that they're just asking poor people to spend more on food. It also radically overstates Alice Waters's significance and impact to say that fast-food chains have added healthy-menu options because of her, or really that any major changes have occurred because of her. She's one person in a large movement that would have been just fine without her, albeit perhaps a little different at the margins. She no more deserves the credit for that movement's accomplishments than she does the blame for its failings.

[weinoo]

Now, I go grocery shopping and I see organic eggs for $3.99 a dozen when the conventional ones are $1.50, and I think, you know what, I'm not buying the organic ones until I'm presented with compelling evidence that they're better -- and as far as I know no such evidence exists. They don't taste better either. (Usually they taste worse simply because they're not as fresh.) You have to escalate to even more expensive Greenmarket eggs before you get flavor improvement that's only evident in some preparations anyway.

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That's bs. The Greenmarket eggs I buy are $3.75 a dozen. In my "supermarket," eggs are from $2.25 - $2.50 a dozen, and even when they get a delivery, are already at least 7 days old. That makes the Greenmarket eggs about .$15 more a piece. Now, I don't know how many eggs you eat a day, but it's not adding up to that much more a year. And the taste is incomparable.

She's one person in a large movement that would have been just fine without her, albeit perhaps a little different at the margins. She no more deserves the credit for that movement's accomplishments than she does the blame for its failings.

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Please tell me who else is responsible, in this country, for the beginning of the "movement."

[Alcuin]

Please tell me who else is responsible, in this country, for the beginning of the "movement."

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One person doesn't make a movement. I'm not exactly sure what "movement" we're talking about here, but the organic and local foods movement has roots in a pre-WWII response to the mechanization of agriculture and it only increased post-WWII as the technology ramped up. Alice Waters stepped into the ready flow of a movement. She didn't make history, she was just a part of it (like the rest of us).

[weinoo]

Please tell me who else is responsible, in this country, for the beginning of the "movement."

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One person doesn't make a movement. I'm not exactly sure what "movement" we're talking about here, but the organic and local foods movement has roots in a pre-WWII response to the mechanization of agriculture and it only increased post-WWII as the technology ramped up. Alice Waters stepped into the ready flow of a movement. She didn't make history, she was just a part of it (like the rest of us).

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Wow, I'd like to see some sort of research that shows the organic "movement" started pre-WWII. Not referring, of course, to backyard gardeners, who have always been the backbone of the local, organic movement.

[Alcuin]

Please tell me who else is responsible, in this country, for the beginning of the "movement."

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One person doesn't make a movement. I'm not exactly sure what "movement" we're talking about here, but the organic and local foods movement has roots in a pre-WWII response to the mechanization of agriculture and it only increased post-WWII as the technology ramped up. Alice Waters stepped into the ready flow of a movement. She didn't make history, she was just a part of it (like the rest of us).

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Wow, I'd like to see some sort of research that shows the organic "movement" started pre-WWII. Not referring, of course, to backyard gardeners, who have always been the backbone of the local, organic movement.

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OK, so the ideas are there, people have talked about them, the response to mechanization of agriculture is there, people are talking about the importance of local food, but until it's christened a movement by your hero, Alice Waters, the movement is invented yet? Alice Waters is a restaurateur, not the creator of a "movement" out of the void.

So, when do you begin the "organic farming movement" (or whatever) if you don't accept that it has early 20th century roots? At the opening of Chez Panisse? Really?

Perhaps Alice Waters is the first figure you can recall for the beginning of a "movement," but that doesn't make her the beginning of it in anyone's mind but yours. Why don't we say the organic movement began with the publication of _Organic Farming_ edited by Wendell Berry then? Because that publication is not beginning a movement, it's just publicizing it and, yes, perhaps opening it up into a wider audience, but not beginning it because it was already there to be talked about (just like it was already there to be turned into a restaurant).

[CaliPoutine]

That's bs. The Greenmarket eggs I buy are $3.75 a dozen. In my "supermarket," eggs are from $2.25 - $2.50 a dozen, and even when they get a delivery, are already at least 7 days old. That makes the Greenmarket eggs about .$15 more a piece. Now, I don't know how many eggs you eat a day, but it's not adding up to that much more a year. And the taste is incomparable.

This is a picture I took at the Ferry Plaza Market in SF, last month. Am I the only one who thinks paying 7.00 for a dozen eggs is ridiculous?

[weinoo]

Am I the only one who thinks paying 7.00 for a dozen eggs is ridiculous?

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I don't know. The farmer must be selling them to someone.

I think it's ridiculous to pay xxxx for yyyy. So I don't buy yyy.

[daisy17]

The backlash against Alice Waters, Michael Pollan and others of their ilk, such as it is, has occurred during the recent recession. I think that's too much of a coincidence to ignore. Right now anybody who has a message on the order of "pay more, eat less" (I think Pollan actually said those words or something close) is not as likely to be tolerated as he or she would have been two years ago.

My own consumer behavior and feelings track these macroeconomic changes. A couple of years ago, for example, I was buying organic eggs. It just didn't seem like a big deal to me to pay more for them. I figured I have a young child, I should do what I can. Now, I go grocery shopping and I see organic eggs for $3.99 a dozen when the conventional ones are $1.50, and I think, you know what, I'm not buying the organic ones until I'm presented with compelling evidence that they're better -- and as far as I know no such evidence exists. They don't taste better either. (Usually they taste worse simply because they're not as fresh.) You have to escalate to even more expensive Greenmarket eggs before you get flavor improvement that's only evident in some preparations anyway.

And I'm not exactly poor. I'm not all that well off but if I really needed to pay $3.99 for eggs instead of $1.50, I could. But real working-class people with families to feed don't have that luxury. When you multiply that kind of purchasing decision by the 30 products someone might pick up when shopping for a family, you're talking about the difference between $45 and $120 for a grocery bill. Week after week that can add up to several thousand dollars a year. We have something like 1/5 American households with household incomes under $20,000, if I'm reading the chart correctly.

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We all make choices about the food we're going to eat, every day. I prefer to pay more for eggs from chickens that weren't given antibiotics and raised in disgusting living conditions. Same goes for hormones in my meat, and I don't believe in supporting factory farming. Bottom line is that recession or not, for decades, people have been spending less and less of their income on food. They want it cheap, and as a result consume gallons of soda, eat packaged crap, and have dinner at McDonalds. There is a cost for that, namely 200 lb 10 year olds with type 2 diabetes. Even if you're not spending the money on organic, locally grown produce (and I'm not telling anyone they should), you can eat food that's more healthy than McDonalds. Again, this is not an all-or-nothing proposition.

Waters' work (and her Foundation's work) on school lunch programs (and involving kids in the food growing process) is the exact opposite of an elitist message.