Paris Vegetarian Recommendations

[jeunefilleparis]

just a quick message... ate lunch at Vegetable today and it blew me away. i went alone but the two gentlemen seated next to me filled me in on the details! one of the, was a huge Arpege fan and told me what i definately had to try

i ll give more detail once i m in the US as i have some wine drinking ahead of me, but the eggs were one of the most unique things to ever touch my mouth i m still thinking of ways to describe their texture.. not quite mouse like; not quite egg white like....

i opted for the risotto though the mqn next to me said i should get the pea grapefruit basil dish and then the onion tart; but i m going to eat again tomorrow so i ordered the risotto! it was a delight to the eye and the palette.. so rich and dreamy ; loved the slivers of veggies on top

my only disappoint,ent was the dessert; a tarte of blue cheese and fresh pear slivers apparently one of his signatures... just didnt do it for me. i want to try the strawberries with infused hibsicus and vanilla

ok more later

also sorry for the typing errors; i m not used to the keyboards here yet

whomever mentioned Vegetable orginally MERCI BEAUCOUP

Edited June 1, 2005 by jeunefilleparis (log)

[Ptipois]

my only disappoint,ent was the dessert; a tarte of blue cheese and fresh pear slivers apparently one of his signatures... just didnt do it for me. i want to try the strawberries with infused hibsicus and vanilla

whomever mentioned Vegetable orginally MERCI BEAUCOUP

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Hehe, this tarte is the only thing in the menu that really knocked me off my chair. I also tried the risotto in my son's plate and it was perfect, perfect risotto. I had a taste of the ravioli and they were outstanding. But still I think that 73 euros for 2 is a bit overpriced for a few vegetables, even surrounded by hazelnut sticks and yellow plastic. But that's my own boeotian opinion and I may not be a natural Passard fan after all.

[marlena spieler]

my only disappoint,ent was the dessert; a tarte of blue cheese and fresh pear slivers apparently one of his signatures... just didnt do it for me. i want to try the strawberries with infused hibsicus and vanilla

whomever mentioned Vegetable orginally MERCI BEAUCOUP

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Hehe, this tarte is the only thing in the menu that really knocked me off my chair. I also tried the risotto in my son's plate and it was perfect, perfect risotto. I had a taste of the ravioli and they were outstanding. But still I think that 73 euros for 2 is a bit overpriced for a few vegetables, even surrounded by hazelnut sticks and yellow plastic. But that's my own boeotian opinion and I may not be a natural Passard fan after all.

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i loved the place, and having dined at l'arpege regular price thought the price a bargain, but...most of the dishes knocked me over--we tasted the whole menu as there were five of us--except for the croque legumes which was just too dry and dull, and the ravioli. the ravioli were really horrible in fact, too much cumin, and the soup was too strong in a cabbagey way. i'm thinking that as they were doing some of the dishes slightly differently each day, different juice cocktail of the day, etc, that maybe the ravioli on our day were prepared differently. none of the five of us at the table liked them, or finished them. whereas with the rest of the dishes, i'm ashamed to say that.....we......came as close to licking our plates as manners would allow us.

marlena

[Louisa Chu]

Lauren, je vous en prie/you're so welcome - so glad you liked Vegetable as much as I did. Do also try to go to La Table Nutella. Another temporary restaurant - another egg, this one chocolate - and vegetarians need chocolate too, yes?

[Bux]

. . . .

You're right: I worded this poorly. A better explanation is, as you said, "If you want meat, you have to kill animals." The French (and Italians, for that matter) are much more matter-of-fact about this than Americans are.

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And then there are the Spanish. I think Spain is far less hospitable to vegetarians than France and Italy far more receptive. Cultures with a passion for hunting are less likely to understand vegetarianism. I needn't mention bull fighting I suppose.

[Pan]

[...] the ravioli were really horrible in fact, too much cumin[...]

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Too much cumin? Is that possible?

Signed,

Lover of Indian food

[marlena spieler]

[...] the ravioli were really horrible in fact, too much cumin[...]

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Too much cumin? Is that possible?

Signed,

Lover of Indian food

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I know, I never thought I'd say such a thing. i mean, i like sprinkling cumin and salt on my eggs, on my chicken, lamb, yogurt, soup, lentils, anything mexican, love it in a cheesey rice dish of almost any sort, love the seeds, love the powder, i think re: the ravioli in question, something went wrong in the recipe preparation that day.

so i needed a few days off cumin after that. but its been a few days, and now.....well, its almost time to make dinner and i'm wondering what will go most deliciously with my re-freshed cumin desires.

if anyone ever was to commission a cumin cookbook i'd vie to be the one writing it, i can tell you.

but still, those ravioli were just not right. never mind.

i mean, never mind because everything else was just so damned good (except for the croque legume which was merely okay). everything else had us turning cartwheels. now, i think that some cumin in the croque legume might have been interesting.......

marlena

[menton1]

And then there are the Spanish. I think Spain is far less hospitable to vegetarians than France and Italy far more receptive. Cultures with a passion for hunting are less likely to understand vegetarianism. I needn't mention bull fighting I suppose.

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"Receptive" is an interesting word. I think most of the Western World still looks upon vegetarians as "weird" or, at the very least, "eccentric". The disclosure of one's vegetarianism means raised eyebrows and a whole line of questioning. (Why?) (What is there to eat?) And things like that. The main differences among Western countries is just how daunting it is to find food acceptable to eat.

For a really vegetarian-UNfriendly environment, Eastern Europe probably is close to the top of that list!!

[touaregsand]

And then there are the Spanish. I think Spain is far less hospitable to vegetarians than France and Italy far more receptive. Cultures with a passion for hunting are less likely to understand vegetarianism. I needn't mention bull fighting I suppose.

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"Receptive" is an interesting word. I think most of the Western World still looks upon vegetarians as "weird" or, at the very least, "eccentric". The disclosure of one's vegetarianism means raised eyebrows and a whole line of questioning. (Why?) (What is there to eat?) And things like that. The main differences among Western countries is just how daunting it is to find food acceptable to eat.

For a really vegetarian-UNfriendly environment, Eastern Europe probably is close to the top of that list!!

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Reminds me of the scene in "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" when the vegetarian says he doesn't eat meat and the response is "have some lamb!"

[Bux]

. . . .

And then there are the Spanish. I think Spain is far less hospitable to vegetarians than France and Italy far more receptive. Cultures with a passion for hunting are less likely to understand vegetarianism. I needn't mention bull fighting I suppose.

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I forgot to mention that we were passing by a restaurant in Madrid noted for tripe. As is my habit, I stopped to peruse the menu. I looked first for the tripe dish, but couldn't find it. I was puzzled and assumed there was a larger menu inside perhaps, but there it was listed under "vegetables." I turned to my wife and said Madrid must be a scary place for vegetarians, especially those with limited Spanish. She nodded in general agreement until I pointed out the list of vegetables. Then she burst out laughing.

[Jonathan Day]

I wonder whether all of this has something to do with different approaches to the "cuisine of abstinence" (cuisine maigre) -- the foods that a devout Catholic would serve and eat during the penitential seasons of Lent and Advent. The opposite of maigre is gras, hence "Mardi Gras", the Tuesday before Lent begins.

Cuisine maigre, in France, includes fish and shellfish. Here are a few maigre menus from Auguste Helie's Traité General de la Cuisine Maigre (1897):

(1)

Potage Julienne

Soles au beurre

Vol-au-Vent de Gnochis

Queues de Homard au Gratin

Pommes meringuees a la Turque

Sardines a la Diable

(2)

Sole au Vin blanc

Timbale de Gnochis a la Creme

Oeufs brouilles aux Champignons

Langouste a la Parisienne

Haricots verts sautes au Beurre

Croutes aux Peches a la Ninon

(3)

Bisque de Homard au riz

Fritures de Goujon de Seine

Pain de Brochet a la Mariniere

Pommes de terre a la Crapaudine

Mousse de Violette voilee a la Suzon

Petits bateaux d'Huitres souffles

Notice the prevalence of fish and shellfish throughout. It's also interesting that menus (1) and (3) close with a "savoury" -- sardines or souffleed oysters -- something that I thought was unusual in French menu construction.

I would think that a vegetarian who ate fish (pisco-vegetarian?) could dine very happily anywhere in France. None of these menus struck me as particularly penitential, though all are technically for use during "fasting" periods.

Edited June 3, 2005 by Jonathan Day (log)

[FoodMan]

To them, an animal is (shrug)... just an animal.

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With Paris one of the most pet-laden cities I've ever seen in my life, I would say this is inexact. The French love their animals like anyone else and more than some. In normal situations, butchery stock is not disrespected. In all rural life, all over the world, if you want meat, you have to kill animals. That's all. This has nothing to do with the affection they may feel for them, individually or collectively, though nobody kills pets for food, of course.

I shoud add that the attitude of French cuisine implies some mysterious respect to the animal (or plant! plants are murdered too) that was sacrified for the purpose. Indeed this is at the root of great cuisine, wherever from, and I believe the French and Italians have inherited a very ancient tradition. I once did hear a gastronome say that bad cooking meant total disrespect for the lives that had to be suppressed. I like that idea a lot.

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Maybe inexact, but it has an element of truth. I was raised in Lebanon and Africa and visited a few countries in Europe including France and Spain recently. It is true that everyone loves their "pets", but other than dogs and cats (mostly) everything else is regarded as "food". No one gives names to their rabbits, ducks and chickens, they are food. In the US rabbits = bugs bunny and they are "cute", so can we just eat the chicken or vegetables please ! This reminds me of a very funny account in J. Pepin's "The Apprentice", when Jacque and his brother stop at a place selling live ducks in upstate NY I believe. As soon as the brother grabs the first duck (they paid for two live ducks) he twists the neck and throws it in the trunk. The lady who sold the birds to them basically goes berserk and kicks them out shouting and screaming. I guess the duck was supposed to be Donald....

Elie

[Jonathan Day]

Here's another interesting excerpt from Helie's treatise. Unfortunately the e-book that this comes from (available on Gutenberg and many other online sources) has eliminated all of the accent marks.

Menu double, gras et maigre

Il y a un Angleterre, une Societe dont les membres ne mangent ni viande, ni poisson. Le president de cette Societe (Vegetarian Society) est tres riche et possede de grandes proprietes dans le Comte de Surrey, a six milles de Guildford, West Horsley. Il est le roi de la contree et se nomme Lord Lovelace. Maintes fois j'ai eu ce noble comte a diner au chateau, ce qui me permet de donner ici un specimen de ses repas. J'avais vingt-cinq couverts ... J'ai du servir son diner complet compose seulement de legumes, pendant que les autres convives mangeaient le leur, ainsi qu'on le verra par les menus annexes ci-contre.

(Loose translation: There is a society in England whose members eat neither meat nor fish. The president of this Vegetarian Society is very rich and has a large property in Surrey. He's the king of the countryside and is called Lord Lovelace. I've several times invited this noble count to dinner at my chateau, so I can give you some idea of how he eats. I had 25 guests for dinner ... I had to serve Lord Lovelace his "full dinner" made up only of vegetables, while the other guests ate meat and fish dishes, as shown in the following menu.)

MENU DOUBLE, GRAS ET MAIGRE

Maigre

(for one guest, served by a dedicated waiter)

Puree de Crecy aux croutons

Cepes de Bordeaux gratinees au Beurre

Petites bouchees Creme d'Asperges

Fonds d'Artichauts printaniers

Souffle a la Parmentier au Beurre noisette

Cardons a la Bechamel

Punch a la Sultane

Truffes a la Serviette

Asperges a la Creme

Salade a l'Italienne

Timbale Pompadour

Caroline de Fraises glacees

Petits Souffles au Parmesan

Complet

(for the other 25 guests)

Consomme aux Perles du Bresil

Puree Saint-Germain

Saumon sauce Genevoise

Filets du Sole Norvegienne

Blanchailles friture

Creme de Volaille, Pointes d'Asperges

Noisette d'agneau, puree de Champignons

Filet de Boeuf Richelieu

Poulardes soufflees a la Orloff

Punch a la Sultane

Cailles de vigne sur canape

Aspic de foie gras a l'Isabelle

Asperges a la Creme

Timbale Pompadour

Caroline de Fraises glacees

Huitres soufflees

Petites Tartelettes creme de Homard

[CarolineLD]

I had a similar tripe experience to Bux in Spain. Ordering a selection of vegetarian tapas (a very small selection), we asked for a cabbage dish which was unavailable, but the waiter suggested an alternative. I was about to say yes, since although the word was unfamiliar it was presumably going to be something similar. However, my friend wisely looked it up - the cabbage alternative was tripe!

[chefzadi]

To them, an animal is (shrug)... just an animal.

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With Paris one of the most pet-laden cities I've ever seen in my life, I would say this is inexact. The French love their animals like anyone else and more than some. In normal situations, butchery stock is not disrespected. In all rural life, all over the world, if you want meat, you have to kill animals. That's all. This has nothing to do with the affection they may feel for them, individually or collectively, though nobody kills pets for food, of course.

I shoud add that the attitude of French cuisine implies some mysterious respect to the animal (or plant! plants are murdered too) that was sacrified for the purpose. Indeed this is at the root of great cuisine, wherever from, and I believe the French and Italians have inherited a very ancient tradition. I once did hear a gastronome say that bad cooking meant total disrespect for the lives that had to be suppressed. I like that idea a lot.

←

Maybe inexact, but it has an element of truth. I was raised in Lebanon and Africa and visited a few countries in Europe including France and Spain recently. It is true that everyone loves their "pets", but other than dogs and cats (mostly) everything else is regarded as "food". No one gives names to their rabbits, ducks and chickens, they are food. In the US rabbits = bugs bunny and they are "cute", so can we just eat the chicken or vegetables please ! This reminds me of a very funny account in J. Pepin's "The Apprentice", when Jacque and his brother stop at a place selling live ducks in upstate NY I believe. As soon as the brother grabs the first duck (they paid for two live ducks) he twists the neck and throws it in the trunk. The lady who sold the birds to them basically goes berserk and kicks them out shouting and screaming. I guess the duck was supposed to be Donald....

Elie

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The first time I took my wife to France to visit my family I made rabbit with mustard sauce which my then 5 year old niece ate with delight. My wife was really surprised that a 5 year old girl wasn't charmed by the cuteness of bunnies into not thinking of them as food.

At a get together with some friends, mostly French and some of the men had American girlfriends/wives we started remninscing about France (what else do we do?) and being in the country. The life, the farm, the cooking. The topic of killing chickens came up.

And an American woman asked, "how do you do it?"

We all said, "break it's neck."

She says, "how?"

We say, "you grab the bird, twist and snap."

She as if we were chicken murderers.

Us, "The chicken had a better life than the supermarket stuff you buy and it's quick."

It got even funnier with larger animals.

[Ptipois]

It is true that everyone loves their "pets", but other than dogs and cats (mostly) everything else is regarded as "food". No one gives names to their rabbits, ducks and chickens, they are food.

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And why in the world should anyone give a name to an animal who will be used as food?

This is not just France. It is everywhere in the world where farm animals are raised. In a US farm, does one give a name to every chicken? Do meat cows usually get a name? I don't think there's any national particularity there, the limit lies between urban/pets and country/farm stock. In traditional France, when cattle farms used to be small or medium-sized, every milk cow and plough ox used to have its own name. Each horse still has, so did every animal raised as a pet or even as "utility pet" (hunting dog, truffle dog, plough horse). It could also be hens (dwarf hens and roosters, silkies, etc.). My grandparents in Normandy, who were raised at the country, had a pet hen and rooster that they liked very much. Nearly any old French farm has stories about some old goose who came to steal pieces of bread at the family table and never was turned into food, or about one favorite duck, etc. I just wish there were no hasty generalization leading to believe that some nations are more hard-hearted than some others just because some won't eat bunny rabbits due to a strong cartoon industry.

I have seen Auvergnat farmers cry at the slaughter of one of their old milk cows. So, please.

Edited June 4, 2005 by Ptipois (log)

[chefzadi]

I just wish there were no hasty generalization leading to believe that some nations are more hard-hearted than some others just because some won't eat bunny rabbits due to a strong cartoon industry.

I think it's worse to deny or pretend that an animal did not live and die to become food.

The interesting consensus at the gathering I mentioned was that "I want my meat from the market, packaged and clean. This talk of animal killing is uncivilized."

I pointed out a chicken on a small farm in France is freerange and the death at the hands of a farmer is very swift.

(I don't think Elie was trying to make a hasty generalization about hard-heartedness, btw)

[Bux]

A young nephew of ours refused to eat lobster after seeing a Walt Disney movie in which a cartoon lobster played a leading role. The anthropomorphism of crustaceans outside of a cartoon seems far fetched. I'll have the bambi with sauce poivrade, s'il vous plaît.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

A young nephew of ours refused to eat lobster after seeing a Walt Disney movie in which a cartoon lobster played a leading role. The anthropomorphism of crustaceans outside of a cartoon seems far fetched. I'll have the bambi with sauce poivrade, s'il vous plaît.

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For a number of years, for no philosophic reason, I ate no red meat but enjoyed at every opportunity any form of deer, rabbit or duck. My husband, who really didn't enjoy any of these, used to love telling people that "she is a Bambi, Thumper and Donald eating vegetarian ."

I need to emphasize how well I ate in France and, more peculiarly, in Prague in the early 90s, long before they were prepared to cater to Western whims. I would simply tell our waiter that I preferred to eat no meat, and would be delighted with whatever the kitchen put on my plate. This in January! Night after night I was presented with lovingly thought out and beautifully presented plates of, for a Californian, wierd little collections of vegetables and fruits. I mentioned often to my husband that "someone is in the kitchen knocking himself out for me!"

[marlena spieler]

In the early nineties I spent time travelling in France with a vegetarian (daughters then boyfriend, now husband). the result was a cookbook: The Vegetarian Bistro, Chronicle Books, now out of print.

overwhelmingly restaurant and bistro owners would say, if we called ahead, and/or looked on the menu and there was nothing listed that was meat-free, they would say: we will always feed you well, you have only to ask.

only once or twice were the main courses kinda strange, though i can't think of examples at this moment....

it was a great thing for the rest of us as there are so many wonderful vegetable dishes in the French kitchen, regionally, and we ended up eating so many great veggies dishes that we might not have otherwise.

italy was easy. greece was easiest. but spain was difficult, it seemed as if they considered jamon a vegetable. how often we would get a beautiful dish of say, artichokes, or eggplant/aubergine, and when the tell tale pink chunks appeared on the fork they would say, oh, yes of course its a vegetarian dish........and when we pointed to the pink bits: oh, yes, thats jamon!

marlena

Edited June 5, 2005 by marlena spieler (log)

[Margaret Pilgrim]

... it seemed as if 'they' considered jamon a vegetable. how often we would get a beautiful dish of say, artichokes, or eggplant/aubergine, and when the tell tale pink chunks appeared on the fork they would say, oh, yes of course its a vegetarian dish........and when we pointed to the pink bits: oh,  yes, thats jamon!    marlene 

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Quite right. As in, when a couple of years ago some of us tried to avoid beef in France due to MadCow. How, one would have to rationally ask, does one totally avoid cow products in France, where everything, vegetable, fish or meat, has an infusion of veal fond?

[Ptipois]

(I don't think Elie was trying to make a hasty generalization about hard-heartedness, btw)

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Well, insisting that animals are "just food" particularly in France is one to me. I cannot think of one place in the world where this is different. I don't understand this focusing on France. Is there a place in the world where lullabies are sung to meat cows before bedtime? (Please don't say "Kobe beef", we all know it's for marbling )

Also, but this is going a little further, there are degrees of consideration for animals that are going to be eaten, it's not "Bugs Bunny" and "just food" with nothing in-between: a choice poulet de Bresse is not "thingified" the way a poulet de batterie or a hormone-laden veal will be, for instance. There is something left, in rural places and not only in France, of the old "religious sacrifice" state of mind (one of the only ways to get meat in the old days), and I believe, with the revival of high quality meat after the Mad Cow crisis, it is even more alive than before. What's left of the traditional rural mind in the Old World (though in Europe there's not much of it left indeed) is still the reason why a carefullly-raised charolais will never be "just food". Eating animals does not mean you don't respect them, and I believe this is the hard-to-understand point for anthropomorphists.

[Jonathan Day]

How, one would have to rationally ask, does one totally avoid cow products in France, where everything, vegetable, fish or meat, has an infusion of veal fond?

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Exactly. My guess is that for many French cooks and diners, endives braised in beef or veal stock would count amongst dishes in the cuisine maigre or cuisine equilibrée (lighter foods) or cuisine de soleil (sunny, lighter, Mediterranean foods). They might even count as "vegetarian".

Apart from specifically "bio" or "healthfood" restaurants I can't imagine what the French would do with the idea of "vegan" foods.

[marlena spieler]

(I don't think Elie was trying to make a hasty generalization about hard-heartedness, btw)

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Well, insisting that animals are "just food" particularly in France is one to me. I cannot think of one place in the world where this is different. I don't understand this focusing on France. Is there a place in the world where lullabies are sung to meat cows before bedtime? (Please don't say "Kobe beef", we all know it's for marbling )

Also, but this is going a little further, there are degrees of consideration for animals that are going to be eaten, it's not "Bugs Bunny" and "just food" with nothing in-between: a choice poulet de Bresse is not "thingified" the way a poulet de batterie or a hormone-laden veal will be, for instance. There is something left, in rural places and not only in France, of the old "religious sacrifice" state of mind (one of the only ways to get meat in the old days), and I believe, with the revival of high quality meat after the Mad Cow crisis, it is even more alive than before. What's left of the traditional rural mind in the Old World (though in Europe there's not much of it left indeed) is still the reason why a carefullly-raised charolais will never be "just food". Eating animals does not mean you don't respect them, and I believe this is the hard-to-understand point for anthropomorphists.

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I think that being aware that the animal is the meat is the most important step towards making a true thanks for the food we eat. if we eat meat, an animal died for our plateful, it didn't come wrapped in cellophane. its so important that we give the animals a good life and a swift painless end.

and not waste. I can't bear when people WASTE meat bits. I want to say, it was an animal, we should use every bit of the animal and treat it with respect. its not just a commodity. and the more of the animal we eat, the fewer animals we need to kill.

and funnily enough, many of my friends to whom i tell that i eat this and that act as if i were a murderer, a cruel person.

it is hard though even for farmers. my friend in greece who raises a gorgeous pig every year from baby to big porker cannot bear to eat his own pig, he gets so attached, and so does his friend, so he and his mate switch pigs at the butchering time. they each bring their own pig to the slaughterer, and take away the others. each has no problem with that,. and how delicious these pigs are, spending their days eating fresh garden grown goodies and greek leftovers......

marlena

ps: last night i roasted a storebought cheap battery chicken. i'm so sorry i did that. i couldn't resist, it was about 2.50 pounds sterling, but it tasted awful, well not awful, but not the chickeny deliciousness a good roasted bird should give.

eating an animal is a bit like a religious sacrifice, and thinking that the animal didn't have such a nice flavour made me sad.....for i knew that reflected on his life...and on me for buying it. i felt caught up in something unpleasant.

but husband was happy, especially with the roast rosemary potatoes, we're all so different.

Edited June 5, 2005 by marlena spieler (log)

[John Talbott]

I'm aware we've got another thread running on vegetarian food but it seems to have become less involved with restaurants than with meat/animal issues.

So I'll post this here for completeness - in June's Where, Alexander Lobrano mentions La Ferme, 57 Rue St-Roch in the 1st and Aquarius, 40, rue de Gergovie in the 14th as well as the previously mentioned Arpege.

Edited June 6, 2005 by John Talbott (log)