What should one be saving for stock?

[Mang]

Can I get a few tips on how to make a basic chicken stock? I've never made one and I have a few questions.

What things should I not be throwing away at the end of a meal that could be used?

Can I save the chicken bones that I have removed prior to cooking?

Can I save the gnawed on ones after eating (!)?

How do you know when you have enough to make a 2 or 3 qts?

How do you know if you have succeeded when done (taste, color, etc)?

Is the final product a liquid, like store bought broth? Or a gel?

I was going to try one with chicken bones, simple mirepoix, a little salt and peppercorns - is that pretty standard?

Thanks a ton for your help!

[Lilija]

Everyone has a different way, you seem like you're starting off on the right track. You don't really need anything so fancy as a mirepoix, though (and, er, skip the gnawed chicken bones...)

For the chicken, since I cut my own parts from whole chickens, I save all the backs and wingtips. I generally go 2 backs and a few handfuls of wingtips for maybe 6 quarts of water. This I use as a light stock, for cooking and general purposes. I also save roasted chicken carcasses, and use half as much water if I want dark, flavorful, deep broth. I've also made it with a pound of chicken feet added, and it adds a rich body and sheen to the broth. If I have them, chicken feet are a great addition!

As far as vegetables go, I coarsely cube a large onion, one peeled, whole bruised garlic clove, break a few scrubbed carrots into chunks, 3-4 stalks of celery leaves included broken into pieces, a parsnip scrubbed and chunked, and a turnip. The parsnip and turnip add a real earthy sweetness to the broth. For my 6 qt pot, a small handful of kosher salt (maybe 2 tablespoons). To taste, I guess. and half as much pepper.

Cold water, over the chicken bones and parts. Add the salt, and bring it to a simmer slowly, skimming off the grey foam, as much as possible. When it looks clear, and no more of that stuff rises, add the vegetables, and pepper. Let it simmer for a few hours, till the veggies are mush, and they look totally spent, till the broth is reduced to the right flavor, maybe an hour and a half-two. I never really time it. After that, I strain it, and pick any usable chicken off the bones. All the veggies get tossed, though.

One more thing: Never let it boil, only a gentle simmer, or else it will be greyish and cloudy.

I hope this helps, I don't measure, and I don't time it. Soon, you won't need to either, it just comes with practice, I guess.

Edit: Welcome to eGullet, by the way!

Edited May 7, 2007 by Lilija (log)

[dockhl]

Lilija~

That was a really good summary.

Mang~

One thing you may not know since you are new is that there is a ton of information in the

eGullet Culinary Institute

Specifically, here is the course on Stocks and Sauces

that has more info than you can imagine !

Enjoy the read, and welcome .

Kathy

[takadi]

I heard buying whole chickens is alot cheaper than buying parts. But what do you do with all that extra meat and parts? What do you do with the meat that's already been simmering in the pot for hours and hours? It seems like a waste to just throw it all away.

[Lilija]

When I buy whole chickens, I cut them into 10 pieces. 2 each, legs, thighs, wings. I cut the breast in equal quarters. Then, I cook them! I have some brining in my fridge, for the grill tomorrow, as we speak.

When cutting a chicken up, like that, you cut the whole back out, almost, it's this fantastic framework thing, of meat shreds, and flavorful tiny bones. That's the stuff for soup. I also use the bony wing tip parts. All that gets chucked into a communal gallon sized ziploc in the freezer, till there's enough for stock. When I make it this way, there's not much meat to pick off the bones, just enough to pick off, and snack on, after I strain it.

When I use whole roasted chicken carcasses (and, when I cheat and use leftovers from Costco rotisserie birds) I do the same thing, save the carcasses with whatever meat is leftover, busting them all up, breaking the bones up a little. Generally, there's more meat left on these, when it's done. Of all the broth I make from the roasted birds, at least one meal's worth goes to chicken soup, or chicken and dumplings with that leftover meat.

Plus, the soup meat is SO good, just on a plate, eaten with a drizzle of good olive oil, and a lot of fresh cracked pepper.

Edit: Thank you, dockhl!

Edited May 7, 2007 by Lilija (log)

[ludja]

...

As far as vegetables go, I coarsely cube a large onion, one peeled, whole bruised garlic clove, break a few scrubbed carrots into chunks, 3-4 stalks of celery leaves included broken into pieces, a parsnip scrubbed and chunked, and a turnip.  The parsnip and turnip add a real earthy sweetness to the broth.  For my 6 qt pot, a small handful of kosher salt (maybe 2 tablespoons).  To taste, I guess.  and half as much pepper. 

...

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I also like to add parsley stems in here if I have them and a bay leaf. Other veg parts you can save for stock are the upper parts of leeks. Sometimes I'll add some fennel tops and stalks into the mix as well if I have them. Another herb I might add is some thyme if I have it around. In anycase, one can flavor the stock later as one desires. I go easy on the carrots, similar to waht Lilija described so that the finsished stock is not too sweet for my taste.

One of my favorite tips for making stocks is to do as Lilija mentioned and cook the bones alone in water without adding the vegetables at the onset. Doing it this way makes it much easier to spoon off the scum than if you have vegetables floating in there.

Another tip which is probably mentioned in the eGullet course is to cool the strained stock a bit in an ice water bath and with stirring so that you can get it in the fridge or freezer more quickly. I like to freeze the stock in a range of portion sizes ranging from 2-4 cups to 1 cup to some frozen in a ice cube tray. The last can be stored in a ziplock bag and are handy when you need just a little stock to finish a pasta sauce or some vegetables.

Edited May 7, 2007 by ludja (log)

[Mang]

Excellent info - thanks so much. I did indeed find the eCGI class, also.

I can't wait to accumulate enough bones, etc to get started

[dockhl]

I freeze my stock lying flat in 1 cup portions in a ziplock. You can stack them nicely in the freezer and they defrost really quickly in cool water.

[snowangel]

I would not add salt, as the stock can get too salty when you reduce it down.

Don't forget necks and gizzards for stock, and if you can get chicken feet, they add a nice richness.

I never buy cut up chickens. I can't imagine paying more per pound for a package of parts that doesn't have some of the best pieces in it (like the backs and wings!).

[hwilson41]

I would not add salt, as the stock can get too salty when you reduce it down.

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I'll second that motion. One of the drawbacks of most stocks in the stores is the amount of salt. Make the stock with zero salt, and then you have complete control. It will taste bland when it's finished, but that's OK. Think of it as a blank slate on which you write whatever you want (I think that's FatGuy's description in the eGullet course on stocks, which is excellent).

[Domestic Goddess]

I heard buying whole chickens is alot cheaper than buying parts. But what do you do with all that extra meat and parts? What do you do with the meat that's already been simmering in the pot for hours and hours? It seems like a waste to just throw it all away.

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I would separate the meat from bones and would use this as an addition in my stir-frys, noodle soups, chicken rice porridge... Sometimes, I would use the meat as a filler in my empanadas.

[weinoo]

I would not add salt, as the stock can get too salty when you reduce it down.

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I'll second that motion. One of the drawbacks of most stocks in the stores is the amount of salt. Make the stock with zero salt, and then you have complete control. It will taste bland when it's finished, but that's OK. Think of it as a blank slate on which you write whatever you want (I think that's FatGuy's description in the eGullet course on stocks, which is excellent).

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I disagree a little bit here - I add some salt at the beginning - light (1 tsp. or so). I feel it helps to bring some more flavor out. I also use a bouquet garni, including black peppercorns, in lieu of adding pepper to the water.

[Mang]

I may end up experimenting a bit with the salt... I don't want "too salty" but I have definitely learned that salt added in the beginning of many dishes doesn't result in salty, just more flavor - not unlike salting meat etc before searing. Perhaps this does not hold true for stocks (??)

Thanks again for the tips!

[slo_ted]

I agree with Snowangel about the salt. I make lots of stock of all kinds and prefer the no salt method. I stay away from seasoning the stock as well, though I'll admit to dropping in a little black pepper from time to time. Since you're going to use the stock as a cooking liquid for soups, stews, beans, or what have you, I prefer to do the salting and seasoning at that time. Plus you can reduce the stock as much as you want without concentrating the salt or any other ingredient. Stock making is really fun, isn't it!

[Magictofu]

A lot of people add flavourings to their stocks (mirepois, bouquet garni, etc.) but I only add chunks of unpeeled onions since my stock is used for many types of cooking. When cooking chinese food for example, and especially soups, I find the taste of carrots, celery, thyme, parsley and bay leaves very distracting if not unpleasant. These can be added last minute anyway for other dishes where they would shine.

I now do add salt to my stock. I used to avoid doing this for the reasons mentioned above but adding a little salt allows you to better taste your stock when cooking which is part or the pleasure of making stock.

Also, if you want a flavourful stock, do not simmer for long hours... (2 hours is plenty) your stock might not gelatinize but the flavour will be much better. If you want stock to add body to a dish (say in a sauce or in a lentil dish), then simmer for 6-8 hours.

Finally, don't be afraid to add a little bit of meat... bones give body but meat gives flavour.

[Restorer]

When I make stock I do it without salt. When I start tasting the stock to judge if it's done, I ladle some into a bowl and add an appropriate amount of salt to the tasting portion.

[sanrensho]

I heard buying whole chickens is alot cheaper than buying parts. But what do you do with all that extra meat and parts?

Instead of simmering the meat for hours and hours, I suggesting removing the meat after it's poached and treating the separated meat like any poached chicken. Add the bones/carcass back to the stock and keep simmering.

I find it's helpful to take the separated meat and let it cool down in some of the stock to prevent it from drying out.

For a Vietnamese-style chicken stock, boil your chicken or bones with a peeled onion, crushed green onions, peppercorns, and a good amount of crushed ginger. Add some fish sauce and sea salt to taste.

Edited May 9, 2007 by sanrensho (log)

[tim]

Also, if you want a flavourful stock, do not simmer for long hours... (2 hours is plenty) your stock might not gelatinize but the flavour will be much better. If you want stock to add body to a dish (say in a sauce or in a lentil dish), then simmer for 6-8 hours.

Finally, don't be afraid to add a little bit of meat... bones give body but meat gives flavour.

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Hi,

I usually separate bones from meat. Simmer the bones to fully draw collagens, maybe 6 hours. Then add meat for a two hour simmer to add that flavor.

Never salt the pot IF YOU WILL BE REDUCING THE STOCK.

Tim

[Pam R]

I heard buying whole chickens is alot cheaper than buying parts. But what do you do with all that extra meat and parts? What do you do with the meat that's already been simmering in the pot for hours and hours? It seems like a waste to just throw it all away.

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An alternative is not to buy the meat at all. I've done a side-by-side comparison with whole chickens (and additional bones) and just the bones. Using equal weights of chicken in each pot, the results have been very similar. Check your butcher shop for chicken feet, necks, backs or bones. Get a bunch and then throw in some wings.

[Corinna Dunne]

Can I save the gnawed on ones after eating (!)?

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I use the "gnawed" chicken bones for stock (I use it for the family afterwards and we all seem to be pretty immune to each others germs at this stage!). If I roast a chicken, everything that's left over goes in with half a carrot, half a stick of celery, a few peppercorns and a bayleaf. This of course is a simple stock.

If I want to make a special chicken stock (which is very seldom) I use chicken wings, a tip I got from a chef in Dublin who claims that it gives the sweetest, cleanest stock. I don't buy the packs of wings over here, as they are never free range. Instead, I save up the wings from birds that I'm using to BBQ.

A crockpot is great for gently cooking a stock and you don't have to worry about it. You can leave it on overnight, and simply strain off the stock the next morning and leave it in the fridge for the fat to rise to the top, which can then be removed.

[takadi]

I heard buying whole chickens is alot cheaper than buying parts. But what do you do with all that extra meat and parts? What do you do with the meat that's already been simmering in the pot for hours and hours? It seems like a waste to just throw it all away.

←

An alternative is not to buy the meat at all. I've done a side-by-side comparison with whole chickens (and additional bones) and just the bones. Using equal weights of chicken in each pot, the results have been very similar. Check your butcher shop for chicken feet, necks, backs or bones. Get a bunch and then throw in some wings.

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Interesting...did you roast the bones beforehand? Were the bones already cooked in some manner? I always had the impression that the stock is flavorless without some form of meat.

[Pam R]

Interesting...did you roast the bones beforehand? Were the bones already cooked in some manner? I always had the impression that the stock is flavorless without some form of meat.

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I never roast or cook the bones. Though you can, of course, but it's not the type of stock I'm going for. I use raw. There's enough meat in the wings and on the bones for flavour. A mixture of the bones, meat, fat and skin is a good thing.

[takadi]

With stock, I've always had the impression that you throw everything in the pot, simmer it for eternity, and poof - magic stock appears.

I always found that the flavors died down a little after simmering for too long, but I always considered that there was no such thing as simmering too long. After all, you're just extracting more flavors right? Sometimes I simmered so long that it started to smell a little rancid (long story).

Does gelatin block flavors? I know gelatin is important for mouthfeel, but I have a strange feeling that it sometimes muddles up the flavors imparted by the marrow or meats. Thus I've been trying to find a balance between meat and bones/cartilage that resulted in the perfect flavor/gelatin ratio. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find that yet.

Stock making seem complicated...is this just me?

[paulraphael]

I roast a lot of chickens, which helps with stock making. The trick is being lazy; I only eat the parts of the chicken that I want, which means that the carcases are left with a fair amount of meat (including most of the back meat). I wrap and double bag this with the neck and wingtips and throw in the freezer. After a few months I'll have ten or so carcasses in there, and room for nothing else, so I'll know it's time to make stock. Sometimes I'll buy a pack of thighs from the supermarket (cheap!) to supplement the carcasses, but it's not required.

I put it all in a hot oven to brown the bones and remaining meat, deglaze the roasting pan, and then start from there. (cool water, mirepoix vegggies, garni, etc.).

There's no reason to simmer poultry stock for more than a couple of hours ... you'll just start breaking down flavors and losing aromatics.

Another key is to use no more water than necessary. The water should cover no more than 3/4 of the meat and bones in your stockpot. when the carcasses break down and settle, they'll be covered. More water than this will give you a weak stock. Resist stirring or poking at the birds, and simmer as low as possible to keep the stock clear. and skim!

[Peter the eater]

This is a very cool thread. . .

For me, the greatest thing one can do in the kitchen is to make stock - and chicken stock is the king of the hill. There are no rules, just the satisfaction of making the most nourishing substance known to humankind, and possibly the best smell.

My preference is:

1. don't let it boil

2. use the entire carcass, chopped up is faster

3. cooked and chewed bits are okay - bacteria can't live more than a few minutes in a simmer

4. a little salt does help (by increasing the dielectric constant of the solution, thereby aiding the extraction of hydrophilic flavour compounds - sorry)

5. mess around with the veggies - taste the difference for yourself peeling the carrots or washing the celery makes