The Sourdough Starter Topic

[bethesdabakers]

Following on from the previous post:

Question: Does dough expand noticeably during fermentation? Answer:



When I'm baking for customers I ferment my dough in boxes in the fridge overnight. I reckon to get 7K of dough in a box. But on a warm night ...

[ElsieD]

Okey Dokey, we have our first loaf of sourdough bread. I think it's a thing of beauty but maybe not.....are there supposed to be big holes in it? The making of the bread itself was very straight forward. I followed the recipe and directions supplied by Mick and did not have any trouble except for releasing the dough from the cloth when I was ready to bake it. I was worried the dough might deflate, but it didn't. I am sitting here eating a piece and the crust is crispy, the inside nice and chewy. Very, very good. I have lots of starter left and plan on making some pancakes on the weekend and am also going to look for a cranberry/raisin type fruit bread recipe. Anyone have one they care to share?

The photo is below - that white blob is excess flour I forgot to brush off.

Thank you Mick, for all your help!

[Smithy]

Kudos, ElsieD!  Congratulations!

 

As far as I'm concerned, those big holes are to increase the carrying capacity for butter or jam.  

[cakewalk]

Very beautiful. I think I can actually hear that crust crackle!

[pbear]

Elsie, that is indeed a beautiful loaf.

 

As regards the holes, it's a matter of personal preference.  What you get is mostly a function of how you manipulate the dough when forming the loaves.  A light touch produces lots of holes.  For a tight loaf without holes, you would knead the dough more firmly.  In between, of course, produces an in between structure.

[bethesdabakers]

Hey Elsie

 

That's fabulous - you've made me a happy man! Now you can forget about your starter (so long as you keep it in good condition) and concentrate on making bread.

 

You'll have to forgive me but I can't agree with pbear's comments. You can't just talk about dough - there are all sorts of dough (although my spell-check doesn't accept the plural) and they behave in different ways. In fact you can't handle all doughs in the same way because they won't let you. You have to handle wet doughs quickly and with a light hand because otherwise they stick to the work surface and your hands and refuse to be shaped. Lower hydration doughs need considerable force to be shaped properly and for folds to be sealed. Let's face it, the dough has 3-4 hours to recover.

There are a whole lot of factors involved in creating an open crumb but the main one is probably high water content.

[pbear]

The best way to handle a high hydration dough, I find, is to work in a bowl using a stiff silicone spatula.  Didn't invent the technique.  Read about it here on eG, as a matter of fact, originally in the context of no-knead bread.

[ElsieD]

I have a question as it relates to baker's percentages. I have never used them. If I understand correctly, the amount of flour I use does not matter, whatever the amount is, it is shown as 100% and then the rest of the ingredients are calculated as a percentage of that. for example, when I used Mick's recipe to make my sourdough bread, the recipe called for the following:

518 grams of flour,100%.

306 grams water, 59%

137 grams starter, 26.4%

8 grams of salt, 1.5%

If I wanted to make a loaf 1/4 of that size, would I use (numbers rounded):

130 grams flour, 100%

77 grams water, 59%

34 grams starter, 26.4%

2 grams of salt, 1.5%

So the percentages remain the same, but the quantities are different? I realize I could just divide by four but I want to know of this is how baker's percentages work. Sorry if this is a stupid question.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Correct, flour is always 100 percent.  Everything else is a percentage of the flour.

[bethesdabakers]

That's right. I was told that the system developed in commercial bakeries where mixes were done by the sack (of flour), so all the other ingredients had to be in proportion to the weight of a sack of flour. Flours are sometimes described by their optimum hydration, so a 60% flour would be one whose optimum absorbsion rate was 60% of the weight of a sack of flour (100lbs:60lbs). Salt traditionally is 2% as is, I think, yeast. So, in a basic dough, water is the only real variable.

The reason my ingredient weights are not conveniently rounded up is because I use spreadsheet calculators to put together bread formulas, to tinker around with them and to store the final formula. So I have several "libraries" of bread by category (Regulars, Specials, Ryes, Flatbreads, Brioches, etc.).This allows me to put together a bake day worksheet which also calculates ingredient weights. This is an example from yesterday's bake:



So everything is controlled by the percentage column. But I can change the bread weight and enter the number of a particular weight of bread ordered by my customers. The +3% column is there because some dough is always lost on bowls, mixers, hands and, because the bread is for sale, it has to be an accurate weight.

All of this is a lot less important if you are just baking a couple of loaves where you can just multiply or divide ingredient weights.

 

[ElsieD]

Thank you. The detail in your post is a lot more than I was expecting. Thank you for taking the time to explain it so well. Next up I want to make buns for sandwiches. To get the number I want, I will put my new found baker's percentage knowledge to use. I did use some sourdough this morning to make pancakes and I have to say they were the best pancakes I have ever eaten. Light and fluffy on the inside and nicely crisp on the outside, and as an added bonus, quick and easy to make. I think sourdough and I are going to have a long and happy relationship.

[ElsieD]

BTW, while we were up there, I made sourdough fruitcake, too.

[ElsieD]

Thanks for that, Jaymes. This may sound silly, but how would one go about it? I confess to only having ever made pancakes using Bisquik, and possibly another mix sometime or other.

I made sourdough pancakes this morning based on a recipe I found on-line on The Food Network. This made 8 pancakes, enough for the two of us.

in a mixing bowl, beat one egg. Mix together 1/2 teaspoon salt and 1 tablespoon sugar and add to the beaten egg. (Don't know why you have to mix the two.). Add 1 cup sourdough starter and mix well. When ready to cook, mix 3/4 teaspoon baking soda with 1/2 tablespoon water and stir into batter. Cook as per any other pancake.

This made The. Best. Pancakes. Ever. Crispy on the outside and light and fluffy on the inside.

Edited October 24, 2014 by ElsieD (log)

[Jaymes]

Jaymes, would you be willing to post your sourdough fruitcake recipe?

Sure. I'll have to dig it out. But I'll start digging.

And I'm pleased you liked the pancakes. Our family certainly does.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Jaymes (log)

[Jaymes]

Got to thinking about that sourdough fruitcake and, before I started digging through recipe boxes and notebooks and clippings, it occurred to me that we have had several chats here on eGullet about sourdough, so perhaps I should check to see if I've already posted it.

And sure enough:

http://forums.egullet.org/topic/126475-sourdough-fruitcake/

Need to add one caveat - it's been a very long time since I made it so there might be some "adjustments" that I made automatically that I didn't write down and that now I've forgotten about.

[ElsieD]

Jaymes, this looks delicious. Does it keep like a "Christmas" fruitcake? I ask because every year I make Christmas cake for two family members and I am looking for a new recipe and this could be it. Also, can I use butter instead of shortening? I am going out today and will pick up the ingredients to make this. Thank you!

[Jaymes]

Jaymes, this looks delicious. Does it keep like a "Christmas" fruitcake? I ask because every year I make Christmas cake for two family members and I am looking for a new recipe and this could be it. Also, can I use butter instead of shortening? I am going out today and will pick up the ingredients to make this. Thank you!

Like I said, it's been a very long time since I made it. I had to laugh when I saw "buttery flavor" Crisco. I'm not sure they even make that anymore. When we lived in Alaska, as the wife of a senior military commander, I did a lot of entertaining, and I mean a lot. At least two or three times a week, I had guests in my home - anywhere from small groups of only two or three ladies for coffee or tea to full-fledged dinners for 80 - but they all involved food, so I was always in the kitchen. Worrying about whether or not something "keeps well" was never an issue. Rather, the issue was, "do I have enough."

And, thinking back, the memories are kind of hazy, other than a wonderment that I was able to do it all. I sure couldn't now.

I just remember that that cake was very well received and, although the first time I made it, nobody had heard of it, by the time we left, had become ubiquitous at holiday gatherings.

So festive and, because of the sourdough, so appropriate for Alaska.

Sorry I can't be of more specific help.

But it's been really fun looking back on those busy years.

So thanks.

.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Jaymes (log)

[Smithy]

If my starter is still alive by mid-December, I'm going to try that sourdough fruitcake. It looks just the ticket for holiday family festivities. Thank you, Jaymes.

My starter seems to be very healthy right now, and my first batch of bread is fermenting in the bowl per Mick's instructions. I started rather later in the day than I should have, but I'll report back on the results this evening or tomorrow.

[Smithy]

Weyll, I waant yew to look at that!

 

I followed the instructions, mostly.  As noted in the previous post I started late in the morning from a starter that had been fed late the previous night.  I didn't have bread flour, just all-purpose flour.  I don't know how much that affected the strength and structure of the dough.  It seemed pretty wet.  Mick, you didn't say whether the dough should be worked on a floured work surface or not; it seemed to me that flour was necessary, so I floured my counter.

 

Sitting in the 'proofing bowl' it looked pretty wimpy:

 

When I flipped it off the cloth and onto parchment (no rye flour to help skid it off the paddle, and I hate the smell of burning flour anyway) it didn't look any firmer or rounder.  Therefore I hefted it around and tucked the edges under to make it poof up more ... a nip-and-tuck operation for slack dough, I suppose:

 

 

Then the slashes:

 

Into the oven it went.  After a few minutes' thought I decided to add ice cubes in a bread pan...not because it was recommended here, but because it's been recommended elsewhere to get oven spring.

 

After baking:

 

It could have used a bit more baking time to get the interior done properly:

 

...but that didn't reduce the enjoyment one bit!

 

The flavor is excellent: a good, slightly but not wildly sour bite that lets one know this is no sweet dough.  I thought the exterior was on the verge of burning, whereas the interior was not quite cooked, or just barely cooked, or almost not done.  What does that say?  Cook longer at a lower temperature?

 

OK, so it wasn't commercial-bakery quality.  It was / is very good home quality, from my Very Own Sourdough Starter.  This is a great starting point.  I'd appreciate feedback on these questions:

1.  How would using bread flour, with its higher protein content, affect this loaf?

2.  What should I do to get a more cooked interior without burning the exterior?

 

Thank you, Mick;  I'm thrilled!

[bethesdabakers]

Hi Smithy

You should be thrilled - your loaf looks really good!

 

So much about baking is using your judgement. Different flours  and ovens are just two factors that make it impossible to supply a recipe and method that will work precisely the same for everyone - and that's before you bring in personal preference.

In the UK, bread flour is about 11.5% not the 14%+ that is available and I've never really understood AP flour because it's not sold as such over here. But I gather it can be quite strong.

If you found the dough quite wet you must be using quite a soft flour - nothing wrong with that. If you used a flour with more gluten it would absorb more water, so you would find it easier to handle, and it would provide more structure, so it could be easier to shape. You might get a better rise although I don't see anything wrong with your loaf.

 

Flouring the work surface is also a matter of personal preference. I rarely use flour when I'm kneading but I always use it when I'm shaping  - just enough so you are in control. Flouring you hands, which is usually overlooked by bread writers, is much more important. And any time dough starts to stick to your hands drop it on the work surface and flour your hands again.

 

You loaf doesn't look as if the crust is burning to me - but again this is personal preference. If you think it is but the centre needs more, just turn down the oven to about 180C to finish off the bake. If in doubt check with a probe thermometer - the centre should be 96C+.

 

Ice cubes? They're meant for cocktails. Bit early here yet ...

[ElsieD]

Way to go, Nancy! Now, make some of those pancakes and report back. I bought the stuff yesterday to make Jaymes's fruitcake and took some starter out of the fridge this morning in preparation for making 6 sourdough rolls tomorrow. I scaled Mick's recipe down to what I think I need to make that number. I had frozen some of that loaf pictured above and made french toast for my husband this morning alongside his square Scottish sausage and he loved it. I had some of the bread toasted and I normally never eat white toast but this was so good I finished that part of the loaf off. That toast was so nice and crispy on the outside and yet soft on the inside. I really am excited about this bread.

[cookman]

HI Mick,

 

Thanks for all the great information! Your posts have been incredibly helpful!

 

If you are trying to convert a recipe from commercial yeast to a sourdough recipe, how do you know how much starter to use? I have read that you want ~30% of the recipe's flour to come from the starter.Is that about what you would recommend, too?

 

 

[bethesdabakers]

Thanks Cookman. Anyone who has found these threads useful might want to consider buying my book "Bethesdabasics - Sourdough Made Simple" details of which can be found here http://thepartisanpress.me/bethesdabasics/. The cost of mailing outside the UK is pretty dire, but you can have the pdf version on your laptop, tablet or phone for a mere £10.00.

Again, there isn't a correct answer to your question. About 30% of the flour weight is fine. On the other hand I have formulas at 100% and there are people who explore using really low percentages with longer fermentation times.

 

What you have to remember is that if you want to retain the integrity of the original recipe the ingredient weights have to remain the same, i.e., if you simply add starter at 30% of the flour weight, you have changed the proportions of the recipe.

 

This is the way I do it.

 

This assumes you have a starter at 100% hydration (equal quantities of flour and water). This calculation assumes a starter at 15% of dough weight (not flour weight). You might want to increase that as high as 30%.

 

Take your yeasted recipe and add up the total amount of flour and the total amount of liquid, add the two together and call that the dough weight. Assuming you want to use starter at 15% of dough weight, calculate what 15% is, halve the amount and deduct that from the flour and from the liquid.

 

For example, say the recipe has 1000g flour and 600g water – dough weight = 1600g (forget about salt, etc.). 15% of 1600g = 240g = weight of starter (which is made up of equal weights of flour and water). So deduct half of this, 120g from the weight of flour = 880g, and the same for the water = 480g.

 

So your recipe becomes: flour 880g + water 480g + starter 240g = 1600g. That's a starter at 27.3% of the flour weight.

[ElsieD]

So here is a picture of the test run of the buns. Tops look a little funny because I snipped them with a pair of scissors as they were in a bun pan and they were too low in the pan for me to be able to slash them with my knife. The buns aren't quite as "airy" as the bread was and I don't know why that is as I followed the same instructions. But, there is no danger they will go uneaten. Thursday I'll be making the sourdough fruitcake that Jaymes supplied the recipe for. At least, that's the plan.

Edited: the picture I planned to post showing all 6 buns was upside down. Given that we have eaten one, now there are five.......

Edited October 28, 2014 by ElsieD (log)

[Jaymes]

Thursday I'll be making the sourdough fruitcake that Jaymes supplied the recipe for. At least, that's the plan.

I hope it turns out great. I'll admit I'm a little nervous about it because it's been so long since I made it.

If it doesn't, please pm me.

But of course if it does, feel free to come back here and wax rhapsodic.