The dried herb hierarchy

[Fat Guy]

Experience with oregano over that past couple of years has led me to realize, much more emphatically than I'd understood before, the range of quality available in dried herbs. At the lowest level, dried herbs fit the foodie stereotype that says they're basically sawdust and should never be used. At the highest level, dried herbs have virtues that may exceed even those of fresh.

The basic dried oregano available in most Western supermarkets (or as a table condiment in pizzerias) has the one-note bitter taste that we associate with oregano -- but it has nothing else. You can stick your nose right in the jar, for example, and smell very little. You'll probably just sneeze from the oregano dust floating around in there.

There are better oreganos available at some specialty markets or at the best supermarkets. At the Fairway market in New York City they have regular oregano (which is somewhat more flavorful than supermarket oregano) and they have "wild harvested" oregano. The wild harvested oregano is substantially better than the regular. It has a less bitter, more sweet flavor -- and the aroma has much more complexity. When you cook with it, it releases a lot more flavor, not just quantitatively but also in terms of the range of flavors.

However, we also have a friend who brings back dried oregano from Sicily each year. This is oregano grown by a family member and dried in the home. There are actually two variants of it, from different strains of oregano grown in different locations. Let me tell you, these oreganos are at a different order of magnitude of flavor and aroma.

Both have amazing ranges of aroma and flavor -- and while I haven't tasted them in their fresh form I imagine many of the aromas are concentrated by the drying process and wouldn't necessarily be noticed in fresh form. One of the specimens has sweet, minty notes and a mild peppery bite similar to that of white pepper. This one is particularly amazing when used in a salad dressing. I've found that if I make the vinaigrette about an hour before the meal and let the oregano soak in there, it releases the most flavor. It's also great to add a pinch to an omelette. The other specimen is very strong -- velvet glove bitterness and black pepper. It's great for cooking -- really enhances a tomato sauce, lentil soup and other strongly flavored dishes.

[scubadoo97]

I suspect there are different varieties of oregano but freshness has a lot to do with the taste and smell. I am close to Tarpon Springs a town that has a large Greek community. In the Greek markets and at road side stands you can get oregano that is dried but still on the stem. This has so much more aroma and flavor. Even when I buy processed Greek oregano it taste so much better than the ones in the big box stores.

[joesan]

I am lucky enough to get some regular shipments of dried wild oregano, supplied by my girlfriend's mother in Capri. I agree with Fat Guy - this stuff is a whole different ballgame from that which you can buy in the shops.

A stored herb breakthrough this year for me was when I just tossed the extra basil I was growing in the garden into a bag in the freezer. We had basil to use all winter long. Too wilted to use in a salad or anything but great in cooking...

[Blether]

Working on the theory that 'pesto alla genovese' is a way of preserving the summer's excess of basil, I've had some success keeping the herbs I grow by preserving them in oil - sage, thyme (I'm not such an oregano fan - sorry !). The rosemary and bay (laurel) are there to harvest year-round. Chillis I freeze - they get progressively less spicy from about three months and I give up on any left after six.

With the oil, I'm not entirely happy with the vegetal character that comes out if the leaves are minced aggressively. It's still a work in progress. Anyway I prefer the results to any dried I've tried.

[Fat Guy]

I am lucky enough to get some regular shipments of dried wild oregano, supplied by my girlfriend's mother in Capri. I agree with Fat Guy - this stuff is a whole different ballgame from that which you can buy in the shops.

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It's good to hear some corroboration here. I guess the next logical question, then, is where can stuff at this level of quality be found retail? Perhaps there's some mail-order source, at some price point -- even if it's outrageously high -- that can provide herbs as good as my friend's family's oregano from Sicily or your girlfriend's mother's from Capri.

[ned]

I'm curious about any commentary on differences between fresh and dried bay leaves.

[Milagai]

Nice topic.....

I've not used fresh bay leaves, but dry ones - what

are the fresh bay leaves used for?

I've realized that fenugreek leaves (not substitutable with fenugreek seed)

can be fresh - used as a vegetable similarly like spinach;

or dried - (kasoori methi) which becomes a powerful aromatic,

sprinkled sparingly on some dishes at the end of cooking.

Very different entities.

Dried cilantro OTOH is a total waste of time.

Milagai

[Blether]

I'm curious about any commentary on differences between fresh and dried bay leaves.

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Fresh and dried bay: I would say the fresh has fresher (!), more vibrant zesty top notes.

(and also for Milagai) - use in the same way as dry. I even put it in the electric mill with the peppercorns when I'm making up a herb rub for meat curing - there's not enough water in the bay for it to be a problem.

Edit: And yes, coriander leaf just doesn't dry, does it ? Nor is it a lazy-person's home grow. It goes to seed so quickly you need to re-sow every two weeks, don't you ?

Edited February 10, 2007 by Blether (log)

[kitchenmage]

Fresh bay is sweeter than dried, with warm spicy flavors reminiscent of vanilla and nutmeg. Dried, not so much. I use fresh in sweets: creme brulee, pumpkin tarts, infused cream for whipping. Fresh bay is also subtle in savory dishes so you can do things like infuse the butter/cream for mashed potatoes with it.

As for oregano, I grow my own. Next to the sweet bay tree. You city-dwellers could put the tree in a pot and the oregano at its feet. We spent a summer picking the best strands of oregano out of the garden and propagating it into a meter square patch. It was a tough job, but someone had to eat it. While I dry enough to get me through the freezy months, and it is okay, I am a snob who eschews dried herbs in general. Even homegrown ones.

Joesan, I am curious about the dried wild oregano you get. Do you know what it looks like in flower? There are many "oreganos" out there, it's one big cross-breeding party!

[ghostrider]

I am lucky enough to get some regular shipments of dried wild oregano, supplied by my girlfriend's mother in Capri. I agree with Fat Guy - this stuff is a whole different ballgame from that which you can buy in the shops.

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It's good to hear some corroboration here. I guess the next logical question, then, is where can stuff at this level of quality be found retail? Perhaps there's some mail-order source, at some price point -- even if it's outrageously high -- that can provide herbs as good as my friend's family's oregano from Sicily or your girlfriend's mother's from Capri.

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My local herb & spice shop (Spice It Up in Montclair NJ) sells both Mexican & Greek oregano. Their aromas are markedly different, the Mexican being more pungent & overpowering, the Greek sweeter & milder. I went wth the Greek since I wanted something that would complement a tomato sauce.

Whether this is anywhere near the quality of the home-dried stuff, I can't say, but it's a sign of the variety that's out there, if not readily available.

[helenjp]

Badly dried herbs have probably been left lying around in a heap before drying commences (i.e. they are beginning to ferment), and are then dried too fast, at too high a heat.

However, even the constituents of good dried herbs are chemically different from fresh herbs, which is why they taste different (and as far as medicinal herbs go, they sometimes affect our bodies differently too).

It should be possible to kiln-dry herbs effectively, but I have yet to encounter any. Some people believe that after drying in the shade, some herbs should then be further dried in the sun, to enhance those chemical changes. I haven't tried that yet!

I'd try buying herbs from somewhere that also stocks medicinal herbs. I know people in Japan often order online from Penzey's - but I don't know anything about the quality of their herbs.

[qrn]

Greek oregano is Oreganus vulgaris or some such thing..it is very strong, mexican is lippa gravioleans(sp) and there is also another cultivar that is also called Mexican oregano...

They are all much stronger than what we get in the stores.which is a relative of marjoram .I grow L graviolans and Greek... they are the best..

.lauraus nobilus (sp) is what is usually called mediterianian bay. there is also bay laural that is not as good. I also have house plant lauraus nobilus that I use for cooking... excuse my lack of spelling prowess...

Bud

[snowangel]

And, there are some herbs which simply do not try, and are better off whized in the cuiz with a bit 'o oil and frozen to retain the flavor. One of them that comes to mind is the Thai basil with the hard, fairly woody, purple stem. This stuff does not store fresh well at all, and dry it, well, one just as well add moth wings to the dish. But, the whiz with oil and freeze, does seem to preserve most of the goodness.

Oregano. It a bane in a gardeners garden (invasive is a kind word) and there are many, many varieties out there.

And, if you are growing rosemary, there's no reason not to use the freeze dried stuff in January in your garden. No need to pick in the fall and dry, or buy the fresh in the dead of winter (when it might freeze on the way to the car). It seems to have enough oil that it performs beautifully if you pick it during the dead of winter.

[maggiethecat]

If you want "wild harvested" oregano come stay overnight here in August. I'll provide the machete -- as Susan indicated oregano is wildly invasive. I cut down huge bouquets of it in the summer, wet it down under the garden hose and throw it on the coals of the grill to flavor a spatchcocked chicken, a burger or a couple of porkchops.

I want a mother-in-law who lives in Capri.

The short answer is that if you want dried herbs that pop, don't taste like sawdust or musty hymn books you have to grow yer own, and dry yer own. Thyme is extremely successful done the old-fashioned way; harvest the sprigs, tie bunches with kitchen string and attach to your potrack to dry. I treat rosemary, sage, savoury and tarragon the same way. If you can buy good herbs at a greenmarket buy extra and dry your own.

If you can't, Penzey's does mail order and ships good product.

[TongoRad]

...

The short answer is that if you want dried herbs that pop, don't taste like sawdust or musty hymn books you have to grow yer own, and dry yer own.  Thyme is extremely successful done the old-fashioned way; harvest the sprigs, tie bunches with kitchen string and attach to your potrack to dry.  I treat rosemary, sage, savoury and tarragon the same way. If you can buy good herbs at a greenmarket buy extra and dry your own.

...

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I've had success with both dill and fenugreek bought at the market, just because those bunches that one buys generally contain too much for me to use in a week. (I figured hey- it's better than throwing them out.) They both work out very well in a number of recipes, particularly my stuffed cabbage.

[ghostrider]

I've dried lots of greenmarket herbs (rosemary, thyme, basil & sage) over the years. The basil & sage, I plucked off individual leaves & spread them out on plates well out of a cat's reach. Rosemary & thyme, left on stalks. Plopped 'em all in their own glass jars after drying. I didn't find that the basil offered any advantage over the dried stuff from a good spice merchant; the others produced strong, aromatic flavors that were decidedly worth the effort.

These days, I'm older & lazier, & since various greenmarkets & farm markets in my area offer fresh herbs year round, I tend to go with those now. I keep them in the produce drawer in my fridge & just use them up.

[chromedome]

If you want "wild harvested" oregano come stay overnight here in August. I'll provide the machete  -- as Susan indicated oregano is wildly invasive. I cut down huge bouquets of it in the summer, wet it down under the garden hose and throw it on the coals of the grill to flavor a spatchcocked chicken, a burger or a couple of porkchops.

I want a mother-in-law who lives in Capri.

The short answer is that if you want dried herbs that pop, don't taste like sawdust or musty hymn books you have to grow yer own, and dry yer own.  Thyme is extremely successful done the old-fashioned way; harvest the sprigs, tie bunches with kitchen string and attach to your potrack to dry.  I treat rosemary, sage, savoury and tarragon the same way. If you can buy good herbs at a greenmarket buy extra and dry your own.

If you can't, Penzey's does mail order and ships good product.

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Yeah, then bring your machete to my parents' place in Nova Scotia to stock up on mint. My father says he nearly falls off the riding mower, trying to subdue the mint in their back yard down by the lake. I'm looking forward to visiting them, this year, to harvest my own winter supply.

Maggie, we definitely do things the same way; I've got thigh-sized bunches of savoury and tarragon hanging just a few feet from my head as I write this. Of course by now, I should long since have stripped the leaves and packed them into something air-tight, but I've been too damned busy. Also, these are the last few bunches, and I've already packaged/used up/given away about three times the quantity I still have hanging. I never knew tarragon would overwinter so well, here in the frozen wastes of Alberta! It was a friggin' jungle, I kid you not...a six-foot high thatch of tarragon before even my radishes were up! I had to cut it down and dry a bunch already by the first week of June (for the benefit of you non-Canadians, that's only about two weeks into gardening season where I live).

I tend to freeze more of my sage than I dry, because although I like both flavours I use the fresh sage more. I also freeze cilantro (I plant it two or three times, because I use a lot of the leaves and also a lot of the coriander seed), dill, fennel fronds, and fenugreek (I planted some seed from the packet I bought at the spice shop, just for shits and giggles, and got nearly 100% germination...that's what I call fresh spices!). Thyme and oregano I usually dry, though I do like to freeze a bit of oregano too for its different flavour. I normally freeze basil, too, but that was a moot point this year as for some reason my basil only got about two inches high (too close to the all-conquering tarragon, I think...).

[joesan]

Joesan, I am curious about the dried wild oregano you get. Do you know what it looks like in flower? There are many "oreganos" out there, it's one big cross-breeding party!

Kithenmage - the oregano I get is very intense and beautifully flavoured. Unfortunately I haven't seen the plant itself I only get the dried results. I am going over there at Easter and will try to find some more information or a photo.

I think that dried oregano is one of the few herbs that dry very well. Bay leaf is another. I'd grow all the herbs that I could but the problem here in the UK is that the growing season is most definitely not the whole year. I think that one of the worst herbs to preserve is Parsley. Dried parsley is like dust!

I can't say I've ever found a really good source for commercially dried herbs - still looking.

I think I will try some of the preserving in oil methods. Have never tried that so far.

[ghostrider]

I normally freeze basil, too, but that was a moot point this year as for some reason my basil only got about two inches high (too close to the all-conquering tarragon, I think...).

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Never been able to freeze basil successfully. Or, at least, thaw it successfully. Always comes out a soggy useless mess.

Any tips on technique would be appreciated.

[snowangel]

I normally freeze basil, too, but that was a moot point this year as for some reason my basil only got about two inches high (too close to the all-conquering tarragon, I think...).

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Never been able to freeze basil successfully. Or, at least, thaw it successfully. Always comes out a soggy useless mess.

Any tips on technique would be appreciated.

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Chop it and add a bit of oil. You don't need much oil (you're not making pesto), but it really helps. I don't think it is possible to freeze a leaf of anything and have it come out looking like it did when you put it int he freezer.

[ghostrider]

Chop it and add a bit of oil.  You don't need much oil (you're not making pesto), but it really helps.  I don't think it is possible to freeze a leaf of anything and have it come out looking like it did when you put it int he freezer.

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Thanks. If we get inundated with basil again this year I'll remember that.

[joesan]

Ghostrider - I freeze the basil whole on the stalk and it is true that if you thaw it after having frozen it it will look soggy. But what I do is take it straight from the freezer and add to the hot pan. As soon as it hits the hot oil you get a great flavour release and it is a hundred times better than dried basil for pasta sauces and the like. Considering it takes practically no effort to do you should give it a try. You'll be pleasantly surprised.