"James" Restaurant

[Holly Moore]

Greetings Porthos,

No disrepect taken. As you point out, the purpose of the eGullet Forums is to read, chew and discuss. "Disagree" is in there somewhere.

Many restaurant reviews do not blatently tell readers to patronize or avoid a restaurant. More often than not it is implied - an experience is related and the reader is left to form his/her own decision.

Edited January 25, 2007 by Holly Moore (log)

[Porthos]

Greetings Porthos,

Many restaurant reviews  do not blatently tell readers to patronize or avoid a restaurant.  More often than not it is implied - an experience is related and the reader is left to form his/her own decision.

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As I see it BB did not review the restaurant but rather ranted about a specific experience at that restaurant. Please do not let your passion for the small guy dissuade you from differentiating between the two.

Unless you ask for further comment I will bow out of this discussion.

[markk]

2.  The eGullet Forums are media.  They likely have more impact than many other forms of food and restaurant focused media.  eGullet and similar discussion forums are unique in that their content is not generated by editorially supervised writers.  As a result guidelines, other than those in a forum's membership agreement, have not been developed or adopted.  Not sure they ever can be.  Which calls for self responsibility - a self-imposed sense of fairness.  To paraphrase Cornell University's motto, "with freedom comes responsibility."

3.  The velocity and immediacy of the internet does not take away one's duty to be fair and responsible.  Such obligation should not change just because it takes minutes not days to publish.

No disrespect intended here, either, but as a gulletteer who has been following this thread since the first, catchy-titled post, I found the original post both fair and responsible. He made it clear at the outset that he was ranting, and he was also fair enough to point out that his gripe was over the fact that he'd been charged money, more than it was simply a post about disappointing food.

And the fact that eGullet forums may have more impact than other forms of media should serve perhaps to put restaurants on their guard more than posters; for better or worse, (better, I think) eGullet is a part of the dining culture now - if you're going to throw open your doors for business and charge customers full price for your offerings, you should beware that any of them may likely be a gulletteer who's going to post about the meal as soon as it ends. If you feel that you need more time to get things right, you should delay your opening, or offer reduced-prices during a soft opening period.

But for a member to post as responsibly as the OP did is a remarkable testament to his fairness. He gave full disclosure of anything and everything that could have prejudiced his opinion of the experience, and his comparison to similarly priced establishments was completely in fair-play.

[Yannii]

just a quick update, i have now heard three (including the OP's) separate stories of similar treatment for restaurant professionals at james. it seems pretty clear to me that this is a pattern / deliberate decision on the part of the ownership. whether it is financially motivated (slightly deplorable if true) or more about pride or whatever, it seems to be a relatively unusual concept in the philadelphia restaurant community. an interesting choice, that i feel is probably unwise in long run.

based on that information, i feel more confident in my belief that the tone of original post in this thread is a direct consequence of the owner's decision to overcharge (maybe not the right wording, but you understand) restaurant colleagues and friends. i don't think that bigboss would have been so publicly critical of a new place, if he hadn't been steered / duped into an expensive tasting menu by friends. is that correct bigboss?

so i guess what i'm saying is, the original post would have been too harsh for a stranger's restaurant where he officially chose to do the tasting menu. but given the clear pattern the ownership has established, the post is not only appropriate, but probably expected.

[James Colabelli]

I don't post alot to this board, but I read it from time to time. I do have to comment on the idea that a restaurant can be forgiven for a bad experience because it "just opened". That's a pile of bull in my opinion. After all, the diners on the first night of service are paying just as much as people who go 4 months later. If a restaurant isn't ready to do a very good job at its price point and level of ambition, then have friends come in for free until it is, or limit the number of patrons a night to what it can successfully give a good experience to. End of debate.

[Vadouvan]

don't post alot to this board, but I read it from time to time. I do have to comment on the idea that a restaurant can be forgiven for a bad experience because it "just opened". That's a pile of bull in my opinion. After all, the diners on the first night of service are paying just as much as people who go 4 months later. If a restaurant isn't ready to do a very good job at its price point and level of ambition, then have friends come in for free until it is, or limit the number of patrons a night to what it can successfully give a good experience to. End of debate.

I thought the debate ended two weeks ago.

I would mostly agree with your point Sir James, however the reality of the business is that some restaurants open on shoestring budgets and due to cashflow, they need to open by a certain date and start the revenue flow, clearly...YES they should get thier sheet together first but it is unrealistic and frankly very rare for a restaurant's business plan to budget 2 months of payroll into it's budget to realistically test the food.

Even if you were to do that, you have to buy food, pay the people to cook it, serve it for free while paying your rent and utilities, somehow hire waiters who wont be making tips for a month while living on minimum wage to be enthusiastic and "sell" the food.

Translation : $75,000

I am not saying you are wrong but your analogy is flawed because it only applies to Starr/Chodorow/national Chains with deep pockets.

Holding a mom and pop restaurant in south philly to the same standard is not in the real world a logical extension of the Price of goods Vs customer expectation analogy.

I mean no disrespect but you simply cannot attach that expectation in the real world to a small "NON INVESTOR / VC" financed restaurant.

I agree restaurants should probably serve simpler food within thier competence when they open but at the same time, people will say "It's boring"/

It isnt an easy business and everyone just needs to chill.

Wait a few weeks and let them get thier legs together.

Restaurants are a unique process of operations management in which so much can go wrong.

It isnt like walking into the Aston shop and picking out a vanquish and expecting it to work, of course it's perfect.

It was built by 50 people over 3 months and shipped over in its own container in a styrofoam bubble.

Your ultimate point is right but it needs to be tempered by patience.

that is the reality of the food business.

Cheers

edited : to resolve the Collabelli issue......

Edited February 9, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[MarketStEl]

Just did a post search, and he is not that James Colabelli.

Unless the publisher of Philadelphia Style runs a fine restaurant specializing in wine on the side.

[Buckethead]

John Colabelli is the publisher of Philly Style, no relation to James.

[Vadouvan]

I see....

James was the owner of Meritage.

Which even makes my point better.

Everyone bitches about wanting better restaurants in Philly, let's start by not trashing them forever over one dinner.

I would hope further comments about JAMES restaurant can be offered by those who have actually eaten there.

[gfweb]

And publicly blasting a new restaurant in its first month is simply not fair.

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Seems to me that there is a flaw in this reasoning. If you went to a doctor who just opened his office and found him/her to be rude, confused and with dirty fingernails...what would you say? Give him/her another year to work it out? No, you'd say this doc is no good and maybe dangerous.

How come it is different with a restaurant? If a place opens and takes money for food then I assume that they are ready to be judged. OF COURSE, they won't be at full-speed for a while, there will be many kinks in a new place...but if the basics like a right attitude about the customer and decent cooking aren't there early, they probably never will be.

[Holly Moore]

Not a fair analogy. A restaurant is far more complex to open and get going than a doctor's office. In a restaurant, Murphy's Law has many more opportunities to prove its existance.

Besides which, a doctor's opening gaffs just kill people. A restaurant's opening mishaps will likely spoil one's entire evening.

[MarketStEl]

Besides which, a doctor's opening gaffs just kill people.  A restaurant's opening mishaps will likely spoil one's entire evening.

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Good one!

[gfweb]

Not a fair analogy.  A restaurant is far more complex to open and get going than a doctor's office.  In a restaurant, Murphy's Law has many more opportunities to prove its existance.

Besides which, a doctor's opening gaffs just kill people.  A restaurant's opening mishaps will likely spoil one's entire evening.

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Actually a very fair analogy, I think. The new doc example I gave revealed a person who was not suited to being a doc and probably shouldn't be in the field. Likewise, a restaurant that appears to show no regard for supposedly honored guests and lets food out of the kitchen that is as bad as was described is revealing things about itself that cannot be fixed by being in business for a few months more.

Very clever line about spoiling one's evening...good one!....but a good line doesn't change the issue being discussed.

[docsconz]

Not a fair analogy.  A restaurant is far more complex to open and get going than a doctor's office.  In a restaurant, Murphy's Law has many more opportunities to prove its existance.

Besides which, a doctor's opening gaffs just kill people.  A restaurant's opening mishaps will likely spoil one's entire evening.

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While I haven't opened a restaurant, I wouldn't say that opening a doctor's office is any less complex than opening a restaurant. In many respects I would say just the reverse, which, Holly, your quip supports. The investment in opening a doctor's office is quite considerable depending on the type of practice. In addition, ther is just as much of a getting comfortable learning curve if not more than with a restaurant. I think the analogy is an interesting one and gfwebs point is a good one. In either case, it is to be expected that certain elements may not go as smoothly as with a more mature operation (e.g. wait times may be increased, maybe some flaws in how things are put together, etc.), but the basic attitudes and talents underlying still need to shine through.

[rooftop1000]

Has anyone else eaten here yet?

tracey

[Andrew Fenton]

Well, okay, let's compare the experience of seeing a doctor and the experience of going to a restaurant. In a great many cases, we accept a lot of bad service and shabby treatment from doctors that we would never accept from a restaurant. Sitting in a waiting room forty-five minutes after the assigned appointment time, or a high-handed bedside manner are just two examples. And let's not get started on all the frustrations and expenses built into dealing with an HMO!

Now of course this is comparing oranges with the apples that keep the doctor away. Most of us have much less choice about which doctor we see than about which restaurants we go to. But to return to gfweb's analogy: we might think about the doctor's treatment as being like the food, and the rest of the medical visit as being like service, decor, etc. In that case, even if we're (hopefully) happy with the "food", many or most of us, do, in fact, often put up with a medical experience that is below what it ought to be. Even when visiting well-established medical practices.

[Vadouvan]

Correct Andrew.

Gfweb's analogy and further commetary about "JAMES" from people who havent eaten there at this point is starting to border on brinksmanship.

I think we get the general idea that businesses should function to the degree of proficiency they claim to have as soon as they are open, the reality is restaurants take a lot of work and the "service" industry takes a beating from this current atmosphere of consumerism.

Your MD analogy is a great example, 98% of medical appointments are egregiously not on time due to poor organisation of medical practices, if you complain, they get mad and tell you they are busy...................

That percentage is probably quintuple the failure rate of restaurant reservations....."James" probably has corrected some of the flaws since this thread started and I realise some people are coming into the conversation late..............but the "finer points" of expectations have been discussed ad nauseum, lets move on and talk about the actual food.........

Edited February 10, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[MarketStEl]

[...]restaurants take a lot of work and the "service" industry takes a beating from this current atmosphere of consumerism.

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You think this consumerist approach has made things tougher for restaurants?

You should check out higher education these days.

Edited to add: Especially when you consider how many dinners at Le Bec-Fin you could buy for a year's tuition at a good private university.

Edited February 12, 2007 by MarketStEl (log)

[philadining]

Blogalicious says we should believe the hype, and ignore this nasty rant here...

But for specifics he only barely describes the duck Bolognese, merely mentions in passing the smoked potatoes and a coconut sorbet, raves about the chocolate terrine, and makes a vague reference to the cheese course. It's not really a comprehensive survey of the menu. So based on just that, I'm not sure I completely trust his prediction that "James is poised to become one of the best new spots this year," but he clearly approves.

I look forward to more reports.

Edited February 13, 2007 by philadining (log)

[Vadouvan]

I'm not sure I completely trust his prediction that "James is poised to become one of the best new spots this year," but he clearly approves.

I think I am with you on that point Phil. A

I especially love this line.....

Blogalicious

"The chocolate and olive oil work magic together, and a sprinkling of fleur de sel hits you after, a chocolate-covered-pretzel-type tingle all the way down. We hate to make broad, city-wide declarations, but this is Philly's best dessert right now. "

Hmmmm lets see, the chef used to work at Vetri.

What dessert did craig Laban rave about in the Vetri review that awarded Mark 4 bells.

Could it be chocolate, olive oil and salt....

Nope, you should not make broad city wide declarations....especially when said dishes have been done before.

[Andrew Fenton]

Blogalicious seems as interested in the drinks and the "scene" as he does in the food. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) But to that extent, he may be right: James could be a hip, happening place, even if for other reasons than the food.

As to the chocolate/olive oil dessert: whether or not it's original, it sounds interesting. And as I'm not likely to make it to Vetri in the near future, I may just head down to South Philly and give it a go...

[Vadouvan]

I had vetri's, in all fairness it includes lavender ice cream.

Awesome

[Vadouvan]

I had vetri's, in all fairness it includes lavender ice cream.

Awesome

Thanks for alerting us to this new blog phil.

[Vadouvan]

http://www.phillystylemag.com/blog.cfm/blog/674.htm

[Vadouvan]

Bigboss

"Risotto made with Prosecco and an Oyster: Undercooked, pre-blanched rice in a winey liquid with no butter or cheese, no creaminess at all. On top a shucked oyster. (nice bernadaud china however) "

Bigboss....

An interesting bit of information.

This very dish is demo'd with pictures on page 187 of March's Philadelphia magazine.

Whenever I read specific criticisms of food on e-gullet, I wonder if they are just stylistic differences between chefs or is the dish actually flawed. It is however completely impossible to judge that except for rare situations like this where the actual recipe is published.

The recipe makes it more apparent why bigboss came to his conclusions.

The recipe partly makes no sense, it basically is a "risotto" made with prosecco and water which should pretty much equal zero flavor.

Curiously no stock is used (fish or light poultry)

Furthermore it say's "the rice is finished when it is completely tender, yet still firm".

A little confusing for anyone who hasnt made risotto with confidence.

It also uses celery (which is bitter) and finished with a kumamoto oyster which seems like it would be overwhelmed completely.

Does prosecco have any defining flavor that would warrant naming it as the wine of choice, it isnt like the risotto is "bubbly" after it's done is it ....