D.I.Y. brick oven insert..

[matt_smith]

so i see the HearthKit, and i like the idea. i've got an old gas oven, and have found that precise temperature control and even heat distribution are far foreign concepts. i am a very inexperienced baker, however, and cannot justify shelling out that much dough (heh).

i can, however, afford to buy firebrick (and decided to do so after being inspired by many helpful threads on this forum). so, after a trip down to my local brick and masonry supply, some scrubbing, rinsing, drying, placing, and praying (those buggers are heavy!), i have what you see below:

now, assuming that those middle 'support' bricks and the rack do their jobs and keep the bottom of my oven from collapsing, crushing the element and making my apartment explode, and i can thus live long enough to use this thing, my question is:

what's the best way to season firebrick so it can be used as a baking surface? i've searched the forums and heard references made to oiling and baking at various temps, but no specific technique has surfaced. what type of oil is best to use? does the whole brick need to be oiled, or just the top? how hot and for how long should i bake them?

double thanks in advance. luck/practice willing, i can soon follow up this post with pictures of delicious pizzas, loaves, and other breads that i made in this thing.

[alanamoana]

are pizza stones seasoned? because if they aren't, there's no need to season as i've never seasoned mine. however, it looks like your bricks are pretty porous. this might be a problem. if that's the case, since i don't know anything about seasoning and oven, i'd start my bread on parchement and when it has developed a bit of a crust, remove the parchment and finish directly on the stones. that way you avoid sticking. unless of course someone knows something about seasoning. then you can disregard this post!

[edsel]

If they're really firebricks, I don't think you need to worry about seasoning them. They're designed for a high-heat environment. The first time you use them, maybe you could raise the temperature incrementally, say in 200 degree steps, letting them stabilize for twenty minutes or so before moving to the next temperature. Honestly, I don't know whether that's even necessary, but since you're nervous about it, take the cautious approach.

It looks like you already covered the real risk with these things. The stack of bricks supporting the rack should do the job.

What are you planning to bake in there? Bread? Pizza?

[scott123]

Did you scrub them with soap? Those buggers will soak up soap and impart that flavor to food. If there's a chance they've got soap in them, I'd soak them in water for a bit. You could also try baking the taste of the soap out.

Fire brick doesn't require seasoning. Just make sure they are perfectly dry- inside and out. If there's residual moisture on the inside of the brick, it could explode. Even if you've given them a couple of days to dry, still increase the temp incrementally. These brick tend to retain water for quite some time.

It's a nice set-up. I think you'll be very pleased with the results, especially with pizza. The only thing that concerns me is the supports. For that entire supporting column, the heat is going to have to travel via conduction from brick to brick- which is much slower than the convective/radiant heat pre-heating the outer bricks. Unless you pre-heat the oven for a ridiculous amount of time (my gut is saying 1 1/2 to 2 hours), your going to end up with a heat void in the middle of your hearth. If you've read the DIY brick oven threads, you're familiar with the ceramic kiln supports I used. Look up ceramic supply in the yellow pages. If you can't find a supplier, look up pottery and find a potter who will sell you some of his or her supports. Kiln supports are cheap. For 4 little spacers and 4 columns I think I paid something like $4. Well worth it.

Overall, I'm impressed. You've got a bread oven that's 50 times better than any flimsy baking stone, and, due to the thickness of the brick, superior to even the hearth kits- at a fraction of the cost. You've also used materials that were specifically engineered for high heat and thermal shock, unlike the ubiquitous unglazed quarry tile, which, imo, should play no part in the preparation food.

I hope you've got a good pizza recipe. With a kick ass set up like that, it would be a crying shame to have anything less than a stellar dough and sauce.

Edited October 15, 2006 by scott123 (log)

[scott123]

Oh... and although I've was recommending a ceramic ceiling (tiles or thin baking stone) to create a shelf above the hearth (for pizza), after putting in more time researching Vulcan style ovens, I don't think it's necessary. I would create a headspace with something, though, maybe a big aluminum cookie sheet. That way the heat from the stone will bounce off of the ceiling and back onto the pizza, just like a regular pizza oven. My guess is that you'll want about 18" from hearth to your cookie sheet ceiling. That should give you plenty of space to maneuver a peel. If you use parchment paper I will hunt you down

Oh... and I just thought of one thing else. It's a gas oven with a flat floor, correct? Why not put the tiles right on the floor? The thickness of the brick should more than compensate for any hot spots. Just to make sure, I would preheat the stone to pizza temp (as high as the oven will go), sprinkle sugar on a cookie sheet and see where it caramelizes. My guess is that it will caramelize quite evenly.

P.S. With the tiles on the floor, the weight is distributed much more evenly and is much less stressful to the floor.

Edited October 15, 2006 by scott123 (log)

[edsel]

Scott,

I knew I'd seen some references to strategies for supporting firebricks in a conventional oven. (n.b. my mention of the "real risk" above).

So some googling located this post about the kiln supports. I'm going to look for some of those.

For a pizza recipe, try Jeff Varazano's rather obsessive persuit of the perfect pizza (currently mirrored on the Slice NY site due to excessive server load on the original). I haven't violated the safety interlocks on my self-cleaning oven. Yet.

[matt_smith]

thanks all, for the great info! you've already saved me much time and trouble.

i did use a mildly soapy solution to clean them, but they didn't soak in it or anything. most of the water that hit them was clean. even so, i'll let them dry out a few days before i do any baking in there, and i'll get it good and warm for a while first. somehow, the thought of those bricks exploding doesn't sound like a very good time. neither does Dawn-y crust.

scott, you're spot-on about the heat void in the center... i hadn't thought of that. i'm hesitant to put them directly on the floor after closer inspection of the underside and element. the floor is a thin sheet of metal and is only connected to the walls on either side, with no struts or supports in the center... guess the designers at Hotpoint didn't figure on it being a load-bearing surface. i'll track down some kiln supports (sigh). no sense in making this a one-cheek affair at this point.

Jeff Varasano's page was what kicked me off on wanting to make my own pizza in the first place, which led to my interest in bread. my pies are nowhere near his, but my dough is getting passable and my good buddy/upstairs neighbor is still willing to eat them with me.

the goal is bread and pizza. i'm focusing on simple italian breads, sourdough loaves, and french baguettes (when i'd like to feel especially humble).

(by the by, the post with the kiln supports kind of suggests that 1 1/4" fire bricks (halves, or 'splits') wouldn't need the supports. i'll admit i put all the stones in first and then added the supports... they were on their own in there without any immediate destruction. but the rack was bowed a bit and i wanted to avoid catastrophe... do you think it could just do without? would having a few supports in there drastically effect even heat distribution?

Edited October 15, 2006 by matt_smith (log)

[matt_smith]

update! (and sorry for the double-post).

i took everything out, and it seems the oven floor is a bit more substantial than i initially gave it credit for. so i put them back in, on it. the end pieces look much more precariously balanced than they really are. if i hear a loud crash in the middle of the night, i'm running for my life (what happens when you break the heater element off the bottom of a gas stove?), but so far so good. looks less 'put together' than before, but should be much more functional. theoretically, the bricks should heat up faster as well without the dead air between them and the oven floor, and the heat should be very even.

any thoughts?

[edsel]

Matt,

This is a great topic - it's got me thinking (again) about how to get the best "pizza oven" effect in my home oven.

If your bricks didn't soak in water for a prolonged period, I think you can use them right away. I'd bring up the temp incrementally, just to be sure. The "shrapnel" syndrome is unlikely unless there's a lot of moisture trapped inside the bricks.

My oven (a GE "large oven" range) has a thin bottom sheet (enameled steel?) that looks dubious for supporting heavy weights. The kiln supports look like a better option.

p.s. - if you want some sourdough starter samples to try out, I've got several. There's an eG member who comes up from Columbus to Cleveland frequently to join us for dinner at various cool restaurants. I bet she'd be willing to shuttle some starter to you. Better yet, you should tag along for dinner some time. If you want to see a magnificent wood-fired oven in action, check out Lolita in Cleveland.

[edsel]

Further thoughts regarding the half-bricks ("splits").

What if you lined the bottom of the oven with one layer of "splits", and placed an additional layer on the rack to receive the pizza dough? The combination should provide the heat retention without buckling the rack (or the bottom of the oven) with excessive weight.

Hmmmmmm...

[matt_smith]

p.s. - if you want some sourdough starter samples to try out, I've got several. There's an eG member who comes up from Columbus to Cleveland frequently to join us for dinner at various cool restaurants. I bet she'd be willing to shuttle some starter to you. Better yet, you should tag along for dinner some time. If you want to see a magnificent wood-fired oven in action, check out Lolita in Cleveland. 

←

hoboy! i was planning on mixing my own this weekend, but i was out of town and thus could not attend to it properly. that would be spectacular. i've read a lot about care and feeding, but i'd want very specific directions to avoid mucking it up. gift horse and mouth and all that... hi-o, ohio!

i'd be down for the Cleveland eats as well, schedule permitting. PM me details?

Further thoughts regarding the half-bricks ("splits").

What if you lined the bottom of the oven with one layer of "splits", and placed an additional layer on the rack to receive the pizza dough? The combination should provide the heat retention without buckling the rack (or the bottom of the oven) with excessive weight.

Hmmmmmm...

←

i think i understand what you're getting at... basically the rack would be sandwiched in between two layers of bricks, right?

the splits are what you see there (i guess they're half the width of a normal brick)... two layers would be mighty thick, and would probably knock my preheat time right out of the realm where i'd be able to pizza it up for dinner on a worknight.

not to mention the night i come home and just want to make something quickly in the oven...

[edsel]

i think i understand what you're getting at... basically the rack would be sandwiched in between two layers of bricks, right?

the splits are what you see there (i guess they're half the width of a normal brick)... two layers would be mighty thick, and would probably knock my preheat time right out of the realm where i'd be able to pizza it up for dinner on a worknight.

not to mention the night i come home and just want to make something quickly in the oven...

←

Ah, I should have recognized the bricks as splits. I was thinking that you (I) could place one layer on the bottom of the oven, and another on the rack. The idea is to get enough thermal mass to keep the temperature from dropping when the dough is placed in the oven, but without the risk of placing too much mass on either the oven bottom or the rack.

I'm with you on the "I want pizza now" thing. Every strategy for making real pizza requires a long heat-up time for the oven. Makes me long for an Aga Cooker that stays on all the time. Not sure it's hot enough for pizza, though...

I'll PM ya about the Cleveland dinners. Since this is posted in the Pastry & Baking forum, I'd like to point out that Cory Barrett's desserts at Lolita and Lola totally rock. See the Heartland forum.

[scott123]

(by the by, the post with the kiln supports kind of suggests that 1 1/4" fire bricks (halves, or 'splits') wouldn't need the supports.  i'll admit i put all the stones in first and then added the supports... they were on their own in there without any immediate destruction.  but the rack was bowed a bit and i wanted to avoid catastrophe... do you think it could just do without?  would having a few supports in there drastically effect even heat distribution?

←

I said that 1 1/4" fire bricks wouldn't need supports? Moi? It was more of a guesstimation than a certainty, based mostly on the weight of my 2" fire brick (if you think 1 1/4s are heavy, you should try lugging around 2s!). Bowing is not good. You don't want your pizza toppings to run towards the middle.

Can the end pieces not butt up against the hearth like they did on the shelf? Is there something in the way?

Speaking of bowing... does the floor of the oven have a slight curve to it? If it does, I'm not sure this configuration will work. If it's flat, then I'd say it looks great. Even if the end pieces have to be leaning, it's not going to make that much of a difference. The end pieces are nice, but not crucial.

Are you striving for a Vulcan oven style NY pizza or a Neopolitan wood burning oven NY style pizza?

[matt_smith]

(by the by, the post with the kiln supports kind of suggests that 1 1/4" fire bricks (halves, or 'splits') wouldn't need the supports.  i'll admit i put all the stones in first and then added the supports... they were on their own in there without any immediate destruction.  but the rack was bowed a bit and i wanted to avoid catastrophe... do you think it could just do without?  would having a few supports in there drastically effect even heat distribution?

←

I said that 1 1/4" fire bricks wouldn't need supports? Moi? It was more of a guesstimation than a certainty, based mostly on the weight of my 2" fire brick (if you think 1 1/4s are heavy, you should try lugging around 2s!). Bowing is not good. You don't want your pizza toppings to run towards the middle.

Can the end pieces not butt up against the hearth like they did on the shelf? Is there something in the way?

Speaking of bowing... does the floor of the oven have a slight curve to it? If it does, I'm not sure this configuration will work. If it's flat, then I'd say it looks great. Even if the end pieces have to be leaning, it's not going to make that much of a difference. The end pieces are nice, but not crucial.

Are you striving for a Vulcan oven style NY pizza or a Neopolitan wood burning oven NY style pizza?

←

well, you sort of suggested. gave me enough to at least try it. seems flatter than the rack (pre-brick supports), all the aforementioned advantages, and no signs of disaster yet.

the end bricks (trying to decide how much of a purpose those are actually serving at this point) can't butt up against the others because there's 'heat vent slot things' there. you can kind of see the one in the second set, second photo (do those actually serve an important purpose? i can't imagine they're for style in the bottom of my cheap oven). the end bricks are leaning due to a little ridge of metal along the outer edge, not because the bottom is caving in.

**nervous laugh**

most of the reading i've done seems to reference a Neopolitan wood burning, but i think i hardly know what a Vulcan oven is, so i suppose it's still up for grabs.