A Question of Copyright

[Carolyn Tillie]

Chez Pim posted an obvious plagiarism from none other than Irene Virbila in the LA Times.

I also recall reading a thread (can't find it now) of a now-infamous scenario of one Indian restaurant "stealing" the online photos of dishes and representing it as their own.

I bring this up as I have found some of my own work swiped and am curious what others' experience has been. As a point of reference, I gave up blogging at the end of last year for a variety of personal reasons. But the blog is still out there as a resource and is obviously being used. I found out this morning as I was researching to find out if a beloved winery, St. Amant has a website yet. Clicking through google to other other listings, I was shocked to find that Appellation America has used the photograph I took of Tim Spencer.

No, I haven't contacted AA yet and I have no idea how many other pictures they might have swiped from my blog. I don't particularly want to click-through their entire site to figure it out. I will drop them an e-mail, but I am tad annoyed that my copyright notification is being ignored by a seemingly reputable organization:

Copyright © by Carolyn Tillie. All rights reserved. The content, images, and individual graphical elements of this website are all under copyright.

[srhcb]

The concept of copyright is simple, but usually misunderstood. The enforcement is complicated. Intellectual property law is having a hard time keeping up with the digital world. Lawyers are expensive.

It's best to familiarize yourself with the basics. Just enter [copyright law] into Amazons Search Box.

SB

[Fat Guy]

Chez Pim posted an obvious plagiarism from none other than Irene Virbila in the LA Times.

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I'd take issue with your characterization of this as an instance of "obvious plagiarism."

Chez Pim apparently titled an article "The Little Wine Bar That Could: Bin 8945"

A few days later, a sentence appeared in the LA Times's coverage of the same place:

"In West Hollywood, BIN 8945 Wine Bar and Bistro, which may be the most serious of the bunch, has opened near the corner of Santa Monica and Robertson boulevards. Think of it as the little wine bar that could."

The "Little X that could" construction, which is used often even though it is never credited to Watty Piper, is commonplace. Even the specific language in question, "the little wine bar that could," gets hits on Google that predate both the Chez Pim and LA Times usage, including:

"Carly's is the little wine bar that could."

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/Issues/2005...ining/cafe.html

and

"fans of the little wine bar that could."

http://www.boiseweekly.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A157655

[srhcb]

NOLO Books are always a good place to start.

SB (has this one)

[Fat Guy]

I was shocked to find that Appellation America has used the photograph I took of Tim Spencer.

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I don't see a photograph of anybody at that URL.

[K8memphis]

Wow. Hmm, LA Times. Interesting.

Copyrights being what they are today in cake deco & all, I've read up on it. My understanding from what I've read is that even if it is not openly definitely christened with the copyright mark, if it belongs to someone, not the prolific writer A. Nonymous, but everything else, then it is copyrighted because it belongs to some particular person somewhere.

Now don't beat me up. That's my understanding from what I've read.

So when you go to the extra diligence and vigilance to use the watermarks over photos and copyright your writings on purpose--the honor fed force field protecting your work should be respected ever the more. We are all on our honor...until the summons arrives and the jig is up.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T~~found out what it means to you!!

From Aretha, of course, lest I be found guilty-ha!

Seriously though, parodies are the work around. Parodies are not an infringement.

Just an aside, there's a program for schools that my daughter has been trying to get her school to purchase that virtually eliminates plagiarism because it can check for everything. Most everything--you know what I mean. Can't remember the name of it. Sounds like a worthy investment for every school.

[Fat Guy]

Just an aside, there's a program for schools that my daughter has been trying to get her school to purchase that virtually eliminates plagiarism because it can check for everything. Most everything--you know what I mean. Can't remember the name of it. Sounds like a worthy investment for every school.

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You're probably thinking of TurnItIn, which is used by many academic institutions. What it prevents, however, is verbatim copying of publicly accessible documents. That's only one type of plagiarism. It doesn't detect plagiarism by paraphrasing, where you steal someone's work and ideas without using the exact same words.

[TAPrice]

Many universities have stopped using TurnItIn over concerns that it violates the intellectual property rights of students. Every submitted paper is collected and recorded in TurnItIn's database. I suppose all students could sign a waiver surrendering copyright at the start of the semester.

And on the Pim site, I would say definitely not plagiarism. I am amused that in comments Pim calls "The Little Engine that Could" a "rather obscure cultural reference."

Edited September 14, 2006 by TAPrice (log)

[hjshorter]

Chez Pim posted an obvious plagiarism from none other than Irene Virbila in the LA Times.

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I'd take issue with your characterization of this as an instance of "obvious plagiarism."

Chez Pim apparently titled an article "The Little Wine Bar That Could: Bin 8945"

A few days later, a sentence appeared in the LA Times's coverage of the same place:

"In West Hollywood, BIN 8945 Wine Bar and Bistro, which may be the most serious of the bunch, has opened near the corner of Santa Monica and Robertson boulevards. Think of it as the little wine bar that could."

Yes, the "little X that could" is commonplace, but about the same establishment?

I've had an eGullet post lifted by the Washington Post, changed slightly, then used a Weekend article. It happens. Pim's blog is widely read, and many people see stuff posted on the web as fair game in a way they wouldn't if they were lifting words or ideas from a book.

[Fat Guy]

Yes, the "little X that could" is commonplace, but about the same establishment?

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If the establishment gives off an underdog vibe, it's certainly possible for two writers to use that same turn of phrase. It happens all the time, especially with headline writing where the stock in trade is the lazy pop-culture reference.

I've had an eGullet post lifted by the Washington Post, changed slightly, then used a Weekend article.  It happens.  Pim's blog is widely read, and many people see stuff posted on the web as fair game in a way they wouldn't if they were lifting words or ideas from a book.

I'm not familiar with the incident so I can't comment on it.

[Nina C.]

Many people incorrectly believe that if it's on the internet, it's already in the public domain. I blog for one of my writing gigs, and I regularly google the first lines of my most popular articles to find them copied verbatim on other sites. Sometimes they credit my name, sometimes they don't, but since I have already granted exclusive license, it's a problem either way. Usually an email telling them that I am obligated to contact the lawyers of my deep-pocketed employer if they don't take it down shortly is enough to get an immediate removal. (I only send said email if there are entire sentences or more that have been copied.)

Now, a newspaper should know better, but it seems like most of these instances may have been unintentional or even completely unrelated.

Recently the shoe was on the other foot, when a writer told me that I had plagiarized his article. It was a how-to piece with 10 steps and one or two of the ideas were the same, although not the language. I had never read his article, a fact I know for sure because it is only available on a pay-for-use website. To him, it was an obvious case of plagiarism, but to the 10 or so people I showed the articles to, it was simply coincidence. There are standard ways to do things, there are cliche phrases, and there are cultural motifs that will be repeated.

[hjshorter]

I've had an eGullet post lifted by the Washington Post, changed slightly, then used a Weekend article.  It happens.  Pim's blog is widely read, and many people see stuff posted on the web as fair game in a way they wouldn't if they were lifting words or ideas from a book.

I'm not familiar with the incident so I can't comment on it.

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Right here.

Headline writing is a different story, at least at the Washington Post. Headlines are not written by the authors - there's a separate staff to write headlines. At least once a year there is a dustup about a ridiculous headline and the author is forced to remind everyone of that. Not sure about other newspapers, but lazy pop-culture references are epidemic here.

Edited September 14, 2006 by hjshorter (log)

[Carolyn Tillie]

I was shocked to find that Appellation America has used the photograph I took of Tim Spencer.

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I don't see a photograph of anybody at that URL.

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Well, they removed that pretty darned quick! Fascinating...

[TAPrice]

I've had an eGullet post lifted by the Washington Post, changed slightly, then used a Weekend article.  It happens.  Pim's blog is widely read, and many people see stuff posted on the web as fair game in a way they wouldn't if they were lifting words or ideas from a book.

I'm not familiar with the incident so I can't comment on it.

←

Right here.

Headline writing is a different story, at least at the Washington Post. Headlines are not written by the authors - there's a separate staff to write headlines. At least once a year there is a dustup about a ridiculous headline and the author is forced to remind everyone of that. Not sure about other newspapers, but lazy pop-culture references are epidemic here.

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How is this plagarism? Here is your earlier post:

QUOTE (hjshorter @ Mar 30 2004, 01:45 PM)

In the strip mall in front of our neighborhood (Ritchie Center in Rockville) is a sushi restaurant, a Latino market, a Pho restaurant, a Persian bakery, Pizza Hut, an Indian restaurant, a Mexican restaurant, a Chinese carry out, a Middle Eastern market and cafe, and IHOP.  All in one little strip mall.

Seen in the Montgomery County edition of The Guide, Thursday April 22:

QUOTE

But the possibilities are countless: Consider the Ritchie Center in Rockville where, in one small strip mall, there is Middle Eastern (along with a great Italian gelato), South American, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Mexican, a Persian bakery and an International House of Pancakes.

I think someone's been reading egullet. 

The language is completely different. You reference 10 places and the Post writer list 8. The order is different.

You both observe that a small strip mall has many dining options, but you can't copyright an idea. Even if the writer had seen your post, it's an easily verifiable fact. It's perfectly legitimate to read something, verify it, and then present it as your own.

The only coincidence is that you put IHOP at the end of the list. The copy editors, who also write the headlines, would probably automatically move a long phrase like "International House of Pancakes" to the end of a list.

Plagiarism is a serious offense that has ended many careers. It's not a charge to be tossed around lightly.

[C. sapidus]

R-E-S-P-E-C-T~~found out what it means to you!!

From Aretha, of course, lest I be found guilty-ha!

Actually, Aretha "stole" it from Otis Redding.

Um, and Otis' band was Booker T and the MGs, and their big hit was Green Onions, which are edible, which makes this music trivia interruption food-related.

Sorry - resume copyright discourse.

[hjshorter]

The only coincidence is that you put IHOP at the end of the list. The copy editors, who also write the headlines, would probably automatically move a long phrase like "International House of Pancakes" to the end of a list.

Plagiarism is a serious offense that has ended many careers. It's not a charge to be tossed around lightly.

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I'm not accusing anyone of plagiarism. I didn't give a rat's ass about it. People lift ideas from websites, blogs, and the like. The food writers at that paper read eGullet. Nina's C's comment about the internet being assumed to be public domain is the point I was trying to make.

ETA: the number is different because I was listing the places from memory, not researching for an article. If I had looked it up I certainly wouldn't have forgotten the gelato.

Edited September 14, 2006 by hjshorter (log)

[TAPrice]

I'm not accusing anyone of plagiarism.  I didn't give a rat's ass about it.  People lift ideas from websites, blogs, and the like.  The food writers at that paper read eGullet.  Nina's C's comment about the internet being assumed to be public domain is the point I was trying to make.

Fair enough, but Nina was talking about someone stealing her specific language.

I would say most ideas are public domain, on the internet or elsewhere. I can overhear an idea, and then go and writer about it. I can read about on the internet or anywhere else, and go and write about.

What I can't do is take the language (even changed slightly) and reproduce it.

[srhcb]

R-E-S-P-E-C-T~~found out what it means to you!!

From Aretha, of course, lest I be found guilty-ha!

Actually, Aretha "stole" it from Otis Redding.

Um, and Otis' band was Booker T and the MGs, and their big hit was Green Onions, which are edible, which makes this music trivia interruption food-related.

Sorry - resume copyright discourse.

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But Otis stole "R-E-S-P-E-C-T" from Merriam Webster!

BTW: I think Booker T & the MG's was technically the Stax Records house band. Otis's first recording was with Otis and the Shooters, and he later toured both with Booker T and The Bar-Keys.

[Pontormo]

Having mangled excerpts from the posts of HJShorter & TA Price, I've deleted the citations altogether. Let me just say this is in reference to Post #14:

Plagiarism? Maybe not enough to end a career, however, in this case I find Heather's more than valid in suspecting that she was not given credit for something that appeared shortly after her post in the Post.

Occam's Razor, okay, pace. But, the journalist seems to have been looking for inspiration before contributing to a regular feature in The Washington Post and found it in a detailed account in the local, regional forum that eGullet devotes to Washington, D.C., Delaware, Virginia & Maryland. What makes me suspicious here is that without clever posturing, HJS nonetheless stressed the multicultural character of Rockville and its food. The point seems to be that in as mundane a place as a strip mall, you find signs of cultural significance. The same observation is implicit in the published inventory.

In fact, the new order given to the various places and the additional refererence to gelato indicate a desire to paraphrase rather than steal from the source brazenly. Come on! That's how we wrote our first reports in elementary school back when there was no internet: you open up the encyclopedia and if you're really conscientious, you open two different ones. You repeat the information there, but use your own language to make your text "original."

Of course one of the ways we get ideas is by reading about a topic of interest. Something catches your eye. Now, for something as inconsequential as a little write-up for The Weekend Section, it's not the reporter's job to conduct a whole lot of research and come up with a thesis to defend, BUT I think it's a shame that footnotes are not common outside of scholarship. It's so easy to be nice....and to give credit where credit is due.

Edited September 14, 2006 by Pontormo (log)

[TAPrice]

For what it's worth, Google returns the results:

76 hits: The little wine bar that could

162 hits: The little bistro that could

1,040 hits: The little cafe that could

2,330 hits: The little restaurant that could

2,890 hits: The little bar that could

Edit: How could I forget:

262,000 hits: The little engine that could ("I think I can, I think I can").

Edited September 14, 2006 by TAPrice (log)

[Fat Guy]

Okay, so there are now three scenarios on the table.

1. Some website reprinted one of Carolyn's photos without permission or attribution. That's copyright infringement, plain and simple. (It's also plagiarism, because of the lack of attribution). It seems as though the situation was corrected quickly, and nobody was harmed.

2. The Washington Post ran a story that on its face appears to contain a sentence derivative of Heather's eG Forums post. That's not conclusive: it's entirely possible that the writer of that piece came up with the idea independently, or that the subject matter was written about in several places and therefore common knowledge, or there could be any of several other explanations (a press release, etc.). I think all we can say here, without more information, is that if the writer got that piece of the story from Heather's eG Forums post, there should have been attribution. (From the Washington Post's ethics policy: "Attribution of material from other newspapers and other media must be total. Plagiarism is one of journalism’s unforgivable sins. It is the policy of this newspaper to give credit to other publications that develop exclusive stories worthy of coverage by The Post.") And if not, not.

3. The "little wine bar that could" phrasing does not on its face indicate plagiarism -- not to me at least. The construction is too common to raise that suspicion. It would just get silly if this became the standard for presumptive plagiarism: then we'd have to go back and ask why Pim didn't credit the Boise Weekly and Phoenix News, which used "little wine bar that could" in 2005, ad infinitum. Now, of course, if the LA Times writer did indeed read Pim and repeat that turn of phrase, there should have been attribution -- but there doesn't seem to be any compelling evidence saying that's what happened.

[pim]

3. The "little wine bar that could" phrasing does not on its face indicate plagiarism -- not to me at least. The construction is too common to raise that suspicion. It would just get silly if this became the standard for presumptive plagiarism: then we'd have to go back and ask why Pim didn't credit the Boise Weekly and Phoenix News, which used "little wine bar that could" in 2005, ad infinitum. Now, of course, if the LA Times writer did indeed read Pim and repeat that turn of phrase, there should have been attribution -- but there doesn't seem to be any compelling evidence saying that's what happened.

←

For what it's worth, Google returns the results:

76 hits: The little wine bar that could

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I'm sorry but that herring is perhaps more than a little red, you think? If you looked a little more closely you will see that, among the 70 results on Google, only two of those are from sources other than (or in reference to) Chez Pim and the LA Time's Calendar Live piece. Fatguy linked to those two already, the Boise Weekly and the Phoenix News Times. Blogs get syndicated and reprinted widely, with or without our consent.

Though I take issue with your conclusion about the number of times the exact phrase "The little wine bar that could" has been used, I don't claim to have invented the phrase. Yes, I got it from that little engine that could Thomas.

It's entirely possible that three people in Boise, Phoenix, and San Francisco, who have no apparent reason to be aware of each other's words and writings, have indenpendently used exactly the same turn of pharse in their respective pieces, each about a different wine bar.

I just found it more than a little odd that someone at the LA Times would come up with exactly the same turn of phrase about exactly the same wine bar I wrote about -which according to Google has only been used twice prior in association with this particular subject. And we all know that if Google doesn't know about it, it doesn't exists, right?.

Is it possible that she came up with it all by herself, using the phrase 'The little wine bar that could' in her review of BIN8945, the exact turn of phrase I used in my blog post about the same wine bar just a month prior? YES, of course. It's not like I write for the NY Times, it's just a silly little blog.

But is it more likely that she's stumbled on Chez Pim and somehow got that phrase, intentionally or otherwise, from the post on BIN8945?

Call me crazy, but I say YES.

And for the record, I didn't call it plagiarism. I was slightly amused, so I wrote about it, that's all.

(edited for clarity)

Edited September 15, 2006 by pim (log)

[Fat Guy]

Is it possible that she came up with it all by herself, using the phrase 'The little wine bar that could' in her review of BIN8945, the exact turn of phrase I used in my blog post about the same wine bar just a month prior?  YES, of course.  It's not like I write for the NY Times, it's just a silly little blog.

But is it more likely that she's stumbled on Chez Pim and somehow got that phrase, intentionally or otherwise, from the post on BIN8945?

Call me crazy, but I say YES.   

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That's because you're assuming the little engine that could metaphor is an obscure cultural reference. It isn't.

Presumably, there was a reason you invoked the little engine that could metaphor with respect to this wine bar: something about the place that indicated a kind of determined optimism. If that's the case, you chose a standard metaphor to illustrate it, one that thousands of writers have used in thousands of contexts, including a few in the context of wine bars. For another writer to make the same observation is no more indicative of copying than two writers deciding to use any given fill-in-the-blank metaphor to illustrate the same thing.

Could it have been copied from you? Sure. Is it more likely that two writers chose the same metaphor? Call me crazy, but I say yes.

[pim]

ok, I'll bite. You are crazy

All kidding aside, there is no way I could possible read Ms.Virbila's mind. I don't claim to have that power. Someone forwarded me the piece she wrote, I noticed the odd similarity, I wrote about it. That's all.

Everyone is entitled to making up their own mind. I thought the coincidence was a little odd, you didn't....à chacun and all that

It's not plagiarism in either case, by the way.

Edited September 15, 2006 by pim (log)

[Shalmanese]

It could be perfectly reasonable that the writer for the LA times is a habitual foodblog reader and reads dozens of blog posts a day. That phrase stuck in his head somehow and, several weeks later, when writing about the same winebar, the phrase popped backing into his memory as if it was an original thought and he put it down. I know it's certainly happened to me before completely unintentionally and the furthest thing from my mind was that I was plagurising someone.

Unless the rest of the article took substantially the same tack, I would just brush it off as something too minor to be worried about.