Seafood quality/selection in Vancouver

[DJOblong]

This is transplanted from the thread on 'C' as it's getting away from that topic:

Sorry to go back to a previous point - the one on why Vancouver can't do midpriced fish so well. How many people in greater Vancouver - 2M? Sydney is around 4.5M. MOst of the really top fish caught there is instantly shipped to Japan, the US and some to Europe, as they are prepared to pay top $. The really high end Sydney restaurants or those with chefs/proprietors in the know will get access to the good fish. Most restaurants down the line have to settle for second best. This means that in top fish restaurants you are paying 40-50 for a fish course. Albeit excellent quality. Now if you say Sydney is perhaps double the size of Vancouver, it stills seems like Vancouver comes up a bit short in terms of good fish restaurants. I have been underwhelmed by the Cannery and C. I would like to try the boathouse in Horeshoe Bay - anyone tried that before?

It also seems like the range of seafood here is actually fairly limited. Most fish outlets will stock salmon and halibut. Everything else is a luxury. I bought some snapper at WholeFoods last night which they claimed was fresh. When I cooked it a lot of excess water came out and boiled in a white mush around the fish. The final colour was a dull grey and the flesh was slightly chewy. If that's fresh then I'm a monkey's uncle.

Does Vancouver have a problem of too much of it's local catch going straight overseas to more lucrative markets? Is there also a fundamental shortage of seafood variety here? FOr instance it seems like the lobster all comes from the East coast, Crab from Alaska, etc.

I think I will post this into another thread also as it is off the original topic somewhat now...

[Irishgirl]

In a word, yes.

The Fishermen will sell to whomever will give them the best price....and a lot of the fish goes to the U.S. THen we have to pay U.S. prices to get the fish shipped back.

Dungeness Crab is local and can be caught just about anywhere....but the best I find comes from the Queen Charlottes. As far as I know...Lobsters aren't indigenous to the west coast, which is why they come from the east. I think that the markets sell "Alaskan Crab" because they think that it sounds better....just like Alaskan Black Cod sounded better than Sablefish for years.

The problem(s) are that the marketing isn't there for lesser known fish, and the demand therefore isn't there either. That stuff gets sent to Japan, or thrown back. I would love to be able to get Skate on a consistent basis....(By catch of Halibut)...but none of the fish suppliers offer it consistently with good quality. Skate HAS to be fresh, otherwise it tastes like iodine. But when it is fresh, it is so sweet and unlike any other fish out there. Some people call it poor man's crab.

Yes there is a huge problem. Part of it is the fact that very few restauranteurs are willing to take the risk of promoting a product that the public is unfamiliar with. Few people are that adventurous. So we don't get the products. It's sad. I have complained about the availability of consistent fresh fish in this town for a long time.

[FishGuy]

You are eating in the wrong places.

I own two restaurants in Vancouver that only serve fish and seafood. Our fish is delivered fresh daily unless it is out of season ie salmon and halibut, at any one time we will have 5-6 fish on our boards plus all the seafood, our fish selection is usually - mahi-mahi, marlin, swordfish, trout, snapper, escolar, ling cod, ahi, sole. We are mid priced.

I agree there is a shortage variety.

[Irishgirl]

My complaint is about local fish.

A lot of your line up is known here as "exotics"....Mahi Mahi, Marlin, Swordfish, Escolar, Ahi....All not local. Most of that comes through Hawaii. It's good, but I wish we could find a way to support the local fishermen in a way that they would be compelled to sell local fish here.

So....What do we do?

[Sam Salmon]

I would like to try the boathouse in Horeshoe Bay - anyone tried that before?

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Prepare to be underwhelmed/overcharged.

It also seems like the range of seafood here is actually fairly limited. Most fish outlets will stock salmon and halibut.

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That's what most boats catch because that's what we have most of/what people buy.

No one here is interested in a mushy mess like Hake that's why the Poles buy so much.

My complaint is about local fish.....It's good, but I wish we could find a way to support the local fishermen in a way that they would be compelled to sell local fish here.

So....What do we do?

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Well for one thing start by Clicking Here

[FishGuy]

We have know local fish variety to speak of except for a 'variety of salmon' and overpriced halibut and some 'red snapper. which is various species lumped together and called snapper - okay some cod as well. Therefore we have to rely on the exotics. I support 100% you idea of supporting local fisherman and business but there is only so much you can do with salmon and halibut.

[FishGuy]

Typo - no not know

[seanw]

Pacific Hake( has to be brought to market fast or degrades rapidly, like skate. Usually frozen at sea & esteemed by the Poles as Sam pointed out. The Atlantic variety is coveted in continental europe, especially Spain & Portugal- & tastes fantastic.) Spiny dogfish(yep a shark) funnily enough this gets shipped over to the UK & makes an adequate fish & chips. Pacific herring, available fresh(if you can find it) in winter, has strong flavour which should be appreciated alot more but isnt. Pacific Sardine, used by C & few others as far as i can tell, is another fish with a fishy flavour- so all those people out there who are looking for fish without a fishy flavour this is not for you! Rockfish, god knows how many varieties there are, sometimes referred to as snapper is more widely available although for how long will be difficult to say. I believe a number of Rockfish are in peril, so perhaps a little research would not go amiss before putting them on your menu. Skate is a highly regarded fish in Europe, but not here, as has been already been mentioned skate degrades quickly & i find that what generally makes it to the market has been processed & is too big(i prefer the smaller wings). Catch em & put em on ice, the fishmonger should be doing the work, if they have the skills. There was a beautiful set of photos on Chezpim's website from a market in Italy where the Seabass has been displayed whole,on ice, & then the gills opened for display to the public- "look everybody this is FRESH fish". How can you tell when skin, head & gills have been removed?? but such things cost money that the Vancouver market is not willing to sustain. Where a lack of diversity exists in fin fish, the same can not be said of shellfish in BC. But again much gets shipped abroad. Goose barnacles are prized by the Spanish(percebes), abalone(another sensitive specie), sea urchin, sea cucumber, razor clams, geoduck.........the list goes on. No Lobster, big deal! Diversity is always enriching, however enough exists within the region to be appreciated, just a shame that difficulties exist that hamper the process of bringing fresh seafood to the local market, usually involving money but also environmental damage. Lipservice is paid to the notion of valuing seafood in BC, if seafood is so friggin valuable how is it that we think nothing of pissing & shitting in the ecosystem that supports it. Anything that lives in the proximity of mainland BC, Washington State & has a reasonably long lifespan is pretty well much toxic waste(a number of dead Orcas have been classified as toxic waste).

[kevfoodvan]

Has anyone tried this Burnaby based supplier?

http://www.fishseller.com/index.html

[~cayenne~]

The problem(s) are that the marketing isn't there for lesser known fish, and the demand therefore isn't there either.  That stuff gets sent to Japan, or thrown back.  I would love to be able to get Skate on a consistent basis....(By catch of Halibut)...but none of the fish suppliers offer it consistently with good quality.  Skate HAS to be fresh, otherwise it tastes like iodine.  But when it is fresh, it is so sweet and unlike any other fish out there.  Some people call it poor man's crab.

Yes there is a huge problem.  Part of it is the fact that very few restauranteurs are willing to take the risk of promoting a product that the public is unfamiliar with.  Few people are that adventurous.  So we don't get the products.  It's sad.  I have complained about the availability of consistent fresh fish in this town for a long time.

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Seems like there needs to be a more coordinated effort to promote local seafood at all levels, and cultures, not just a the level of customers of "C", although Rob has done admirably with promoting the oceanwise program. Probably there is too much bureaucracy with little support at the govenrment levels. The live products available at many Asian markets, are they mostly local or many imported, the live tilapia for instance, they are farmed overseas probably? We don't seem to have a market that offers a wide variety of all local fish, such as the one at Pike Place, the ones at GI are quite small. Not sure about the north shore options, and the Vic drive shop is a teahouse now. As mentioned in the other thread, we just don't seem to compare availability wise to Asia and southern Europe. Is there not enough local interest or perhaps our interest not worth enough cash.

[DJOblong]

where's your restaurants marcus?

[stovetop]

The big problem with seafood availability is with local distribution and as you mentioned DJOblong and I mentioned in the "c" thread. Another thing is the restaurant wholesale companies can not compete with Sysco and Gordon foods- they account for a huge part of the wholesale market.

One aspect that I have seen in BC and especially on the island the amount of people who do not like seafood. There was places I worked and maybe out of twenty staff- maybe like three people liked seafood. They big jump into the world of fish is the big adventure of fish and chips. They will eat like battered shrimp deep fried scallops and a fish platter. This is the world of many Islanders. The coastal food is not seafood- they like well done beef and generally meat that is over cooked- serve them rare meat and they freak.

The market is generally weak that way and many owners taste buds are similar, so they tend not to support the seafood movement. I was in Ucluelet and port Alberni and you have to find very different sources for seafood. The biggest culprit in why the seafood industry sucks is DFO. It is run in Ottawa and the last time I checked there is no Ocean there. It is so out of touch with the culture of the coast. The Native and local fisheries people also only fish the same three fish. Salmon- halibut- tuna, there is so much more out there; sidebar- did you know that there is Cray fish in the Port area, it could be a fisheries itself but change is slow and there really is no desire for looking at alternative fisheries.

The other thing is there is way to much competition between the sports fishing and commercial- it has done nothing but plaque both industries into submission.

They would do themselves both more justice by working together rather then fighting for the same resource. The thing is most guides at one time or another used to be fisherman- they came from the same cloth so how much of a stretch would it be to work together.

The whole thing in bringing fish into a camp up north when there is tonnes of fish around is crazy. The fuel- the resources to ship 1000 lbs of fish to Queen Charlotte island to feed fisherman who all day long are catching the best fish around. Then they have to eat something caught done south that is four days old.

this is the weirdest shit I have seen all my life

Thank DFO

steve

[Chef Fowke]

When chatting with foreign fisherman/suppliers overseas I hear the same thing over and over again ~ Vancouver is a dumping ground for #2 products. Vancouver is the largest producer of boneless, skinless white (nameless) fish filets (and puree?) for North American, Asia and Europe.

Case in point, 75% of the fish sold at Pike's Place Market (Seattle) is from Canadian or Alaskan waters, yet we can only buy a fraction of it locally.

[Ling]

That's really too bad. I buy from Pure Seafood (in Pike Place) almost every week and the selection is pretty good, and the product is fresh. I wish there was a place like Pure Seafood or Mutual Fish up here. I would gladly pay more for good seafood.

[Sam Salmon]

where's your restaurants marcus?

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Don't visit his 4th Ave place until the 15th-Closed sign on the window

I wish there was a place like Pure Seafood or Mutual Fish up here. I would gladly pay more for good seafood.

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Then Get Thee to Whole Foods-lotsa great fish at Great Prices

Click Here for another N Pacific mushy fish-Scomber Japonicus-we can't give away

Edited August 14, 2006 by Sam Salmon (log)

[Ling]

^Sorry, I'm not getting the Whole Foods comment. Are you being sarcastic? You don't think the quality at Pure Seafood or Mutual is any good? If so, please tell me where I can find something better. I know Pure Seafood and Mutual supply a lot of the better restaurants in town, and I've never bought anything that I didn't think was good.

I don't want to give Whole Foods any money right now because of the whole "no live lobster/foie gras" issue.

[stovetop]

I would like to add something to what I was saying earlier- I am not sure who is more conservative, the companies like Albion or the average restaurateur- customer. I feel that there is some convergegence in the marketplace but there is such a slow process to change.

We in the high end food business see trends before they reach the retail sector, in our business it has been kind of reciprocal over the years and you see trends come around a second time. Then this trend will go retail and then places like 7-eleven, wendys, mcdonalds, and all those over fast food places trying to sell to the masses.

There all so slow and conservative to change and all are ridding the new trends that we in the dinning world were doing like 10-20 years ago; so many products we use in the business eventually make it to retail.

The other side is I think the farmers -fisherman and a growing side of the general public do want change are moving to something different. A lot of people are looking for healthier alternatives to meat which has a billion dollar advertising program to promote the industry- when have you seen a commercial for " eat Fish" it is good for you?

The wholesale seafood industry in Canada and all most of the companies we buy from have all been bought up by multinationals looking for profit or maybe just supply. we become the fallout and the service to each local market just becomes secondary.

Our farmers and fisherman need a better distribution line that sells to Canadian restaurants in each local market.

The one local product which I have fished for my whole life is Pickerel-perch and Northern pike but try and find this product in Canada and you are hooped. Do some research and you realize we harvest tonnes of the product and all of it is exported by the freshwater Marketing Board out of Winnipeg. Lakes like Slave lake- Cold lake and great bear plus many northern lakes in BC.

Everyone I know loves all those fish but try and find it on a menu and you will go blind before you see it on a menu.

Whats up with that?

That is what is happening with our food sources in this business.

Sysco- Gordon

We need a local wholesale market in all food areas so small company chefs and small scale food producers can meet. The consumer out there needs this- there is interest and there is a market, there is just no one minding the store.

steve

Edited August 14, 2006 by stovetop (log)

[Oyster Guy]

I totally agree with you on all your points, Steve.

You have almost nothing but multinationals running our seafood industry.

Companies like Albion actually contribute to the problem by paying so little to the fishermen that they would prefer to sell their catch overseas or at least out of this province.

I know plenty of oyster farmers who don't sell their product in BC but ship to Calgary and Toronto as this is where people are willing to pay a fair price for the product.

The consumer isn't without blame in this situation either.

People in BC would rather pay a lower price and put up with second rate product than spend a couple of bucks and support local fisherpersons and get first rate product.

If you don't believe me, look at all the threads relating to cheap places to eat in this forum.

I am all for looking for deals but sometimes it is definitely better to pay the higher price for better quality.

And I am for keeping the profits in the small guy's hands.

Just my 2 cents

Keep on shucking

Oyster Guy

[stovetop]

Hi oyster guy:

You know that Oyster Jim character on the island based out of Ucluelet and as he calls it his oyster ranch is up in Clauagout(sp) sound near Tofino. Many years ago he decided to bypass the wholesalers and he markets his product himself. It is one of my fav oysters and one of the few oyster claims that does not have to close for red tide. The one problem though up there is sometimes there is a shortage of micro planktin and it starves the oysters.

He sells for about dollar each and I had few who complained about the product when I had the restaurant in Ucluelet. It was top notch product.

Steve

[DJOblong]

One idea I would suggest - in some of the smaller coastal regions of Australia they have what we call a fishermen's co-op. It's basically like a mini-local market run, owned & operated by the local fishermen. They send their local catch there and you can get huge range of great fresh fish. I'm not sure whether there is some restrictions on this. Maybe the Canadian government has prostituted the rights to selling fish out completely to big companies. If that is the case then for shame! I would think in places like the NorthWest coast you might find this sort of operation? The prices aren't necessarily cheap but the product is fantastic. That's the reality of the modern seafood industry. Europe & Japan have decimated some local fish populations and so they now look elsewhere. High demand = high prices.

Also I disagree on the Whole Foods comment. I bought some snapper there last week - abomniable. They told me it was fresh but the flesh was chewy and it leaked water when being cooked - a tell tale sign of freezing. Plus Whole Foods in general is completely overpriced. I agree most of their food is great but not so much with the fish. They have decent salmon and halibut but big deal so does every Tom, Dick and Harry in Vancouver.

[seanw]

Lorna,

Wholefoods acquired a large Seattle based seafood processor(Select) a few years ago, they also have an east coast supplier. So the stuff you find at Wholefoods in Van. has come from either of these sources.

[Junior]

You should try and get seafood in the middle of Saskatchewan ! I have two companies I can buy seafood from. On company is based in Regina and call it's self the only fresh seafood company in Saskatchewan. The only probelm I have is that they also sell desserts and a variety of game meat as well. I don't generally buy from them.

The other company I can get seafood from is Bridgebrand (Gordon Food Services) which owns Albion Fisheries. I always buy Fresh and wild as much as I can. It is a little hit and miss with the fish, halibut was great and the salmon looked good but when we filleted the fish, the flesh was mushy. Packaging is sometimes a probelm as well, I received a shipment of Ling Cod with one small ice pack in it.

So any seafood that I need i have to buy from Bridgebrand.

I also try to buy Canadain products as well. Something that Bridgebrand sells lots of and the competitor sells shrimp from India and Vietnam.

As for fresh fish, I can get some pretty amazing stuff. Pike, walleye, whitefish, several types of trout, perch, crayfish, and grayling. We are very blessed with great system of local fishermen. Usually this fish I can get on a day's notice. We do have one fisherman who comes down to the city every week with his week's catch.

I like the idea of a seafood coop i would certainly be buying from those farmers. We have a coop here in Saskatchewan for Beef. Natural Valley farms is a coop of a 100 farms just south of Regina. Best beef in Canada.

[fud]

^ I've always been pretty happy with Seven Seas as a source for fish. Is there anything particularily bad about them?

[canucklehead]

Also I disagree on the Whole Foods comment. I bought some snapper there last week - abomniable. They told me it was fresh but the flesh was chewy and it leaked water when being cooked - a tell tale sign of freezing. Plus Whole Foods in general is completely overpriced. I agree most of their food is great but not so much with the fish. They have decent salmon and halibut but big deal so does every Tom, Dick and Harry in Vancouver.

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Let them know about it - if you kept your reciept bring it along. They are pretty good about working out a solution with you.

They mischarged me on some asparagus one time and ended up gaving it all to me for free. While they were giving me my money - another lady was at the customer service counter who had some issues with scallops she had purchased (she was very reasonable about it, more customer feedback than complaint). They also refunded her money even though she did not have her receipt.

WH charges up the ying-yang for alot of their things... the flip side of the coin is that they are very customer focused.

[DJOblong]

Yeah I wasn't too bummed about the snapper - it wasn't off or anything - just not fresh. I will talk with my wallet and not buy fish (at least not that type) there again.