Cheese-making

[dougal]

I'm not sure if it is related to your problem, but could a crumbly texture have anything to do with not pressing with proper weight?  I have never made any hard cheeses precisely because I don't feel there is enough explanation in the books that I have about pressing.  Home Cheese Making, specifically, does not do a good job of discussing the potential issues.

I know, from posts upthread, that Carolyn had troubles with her press, and I find that recipes talk about pressing with a certain weight for a given mold size--for example, two-pound--but it isn't clear to me what a two lb press mold is.  This is especially the case because molds with a wide variety of diameters and heights could hold two lbs of cheese, and also since the presses that I have seen online talk about sizes in relation to number of gallons of milk that are initially used for the cheese, i.e., 2 or 5 gallons. 

Also, I've seen that the more expensive presses have PSI gauges and this clearly means that it isn't simply weight that matters, but the amount of weight per square inch of cheese--I'm assuming the top surface here {...} At any rate, at the least, it seems to me that the presses that have a "50 lb" spring for both 2-gallon and 5-gallon cheese molds are not going to function properly as the top surface area of the 5-gallon cheese certainly will be larger, and therefore must require more weight to equal the same PSI as the 2-gallon cheese would.  ...

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All too true.

Cheesemaking and basic physics/mechanics seem to rarely run together!

The pressure is what matters and any weights are going to refer to a specific pressing arrangement only.

The pressure is just force divided by the area its applied to. And for a round piston (or "follower") the area is of course π r squared. So, multiply the radius by itself, then by 3 (rough approximation for π). Thus for a 3 inch internal diameter mould, the radius is 1.5 inches, so its area is 1.5x 1.5x 3 = about 6.75 sq inches.

But it gets even more murky when one realises that some people use a "Dutch Press" - where a weight is attached to a lever - when there is a force multiplication factor to consider as well. If the weight is attached to the lever 3x as far from the pivot as the piston, then the piston will exert a force of 3x the weight used!

So, if we hung 11 lb on such a dutch press, we'd exert a force of about 33 lb, and applying this to our 3 inch diameter mould, gets us close to a pressure of (33 divided by 6.75) about 5 psi on our cheese. (Which I think is the right ballpark to be in.)

The design of presses specifically for cheese is such that the force (and hence the pressure) doesn't drop right off as the cheese compresses. The force must follow the shrinking cheese. So, if using a press intended for some other purpose, you need to be mindful of this and try to build in rather a lot of elasticity!

Stilton pressing is an interesting special case in that it is just "pressed" under its own weight, frequently flipping it over, so that both ends are 'pressed' equally.

Edit: fixed the typo I spotted late!

Edited June 4, 2008 by dougal (log)

[A Patric]

Alan, thanks for staying on top of this! I have several things I am planning to try this fall to remedy my situation. I will finally have space to put in a curing chamber for cured meats, and I'm hoping that the temperatures and humidities are approximately the same for cheese making as well, so hopefully that will work out. I am also going to get fresh innoculant, and try a different source of milk. I think I am going to try to go "back to basics" first and keep working on a Monterrey Jack until I can get it to work right, and only then move on to the more challenging cheeses. My reach exceeded my grasp on that cheddar, I'm afraid  .

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Chris,

I think that you'll find that relative humidity recommendations for cheese and charcuterie can be substantially different. Humidity for cheese seems to need to be in the 80%-95% ball park, whereas for charcuterie, as you know, that will cause some significant mold issues, and the meat/sausage will not dry nearly as quickly as it should.

Best,

Alan

[A Patric]

I'm not sure if it is related to your problem, but could a crumbly texture have anything to do with not pressing with proper weight?  I have never made any hard cheeses precisely because I don't feel there is enough explanation in the books that I have about pressing.  Home Cheese Making, specifically, does not do a good job of discussing the potential issues.

I know, from posts upthread, that Carolyn had troubles with her press, and I find that recipes talk about pressing with a certain weight for a given mold size--for example, two-pound--but it isn't clear to me what a two lb press mold is.  This is especially the case because molds with a wide variety of diameters and heights could hold two lbs of cheese, and also since the presses that I have seen online talk about sizes in relation to number of gallons of milk that are initially used for the cheese, i.e., 2 or 5 gallons. 

Also, I've seen that the more expensive presses have PSI gauges and this clearly means that it isn't simply weight that matters, but the amount of weight per square inch of cheese--I'm assuming the top surface here {...} At any rate, at the least, it seems to me that the presses that have a "50 lb" spring for both 2-gallon and 5-gallon cheese molds are not going to function properly as the top surface area of the 5-gallon cheese certainly will be larger, and therefore must require more weight to equal the same PSI as the 2-gallon cheese would.  ...

←

All too true.

Cheesemaking and basic physics/mechanics seem to rarely run together!

The pressure is what matters and any weights are going to refer to a specific pressing arrangement only.

The pressure is just force divided by the area its applied to. And for a round piston (or "follower") the area is of course π r squared. So, multiply the radius by itself, then by 3 (rough approximation for π). Thus for a 3 inch internal diameter mould, the radius is 1.5 inches, so its area is 1.5x 1.5x 3 = about 6.75 sq inches.

But it gets even more murky when one realises that some people use a "Dutch Press" - where a weight is attached to a lever - when there is a force multiplication factor to consider as well. If the weight is attached to the lever 3x as far from the pivot as the piston, then the piston will exert a force of 3x the weight used!

So, if we hung 11 lb on such a dutch press, we'd exert a force of about 33 lb, and applying this to our 3 inch diameter mould, gets us close to a pressure of (33 divided by 6.75) about 5 psi on our cheese. (Which I think is the right ballpark to be in.)

The design of presses specifically for cheese is such that the force (and hence the pressure) doesn't drop right off as the cheese compresses. The force must follow the shrinking cheese. So, if using a press intended for some other purpose, you need to be mindful of this and try to build in rather a lot of elasticity!

Stilton pressing is an interesting special case in that it is just "pressed" under its own weight, frequently flipping it over, so that both ends are 'pressed' equally.

Edit: fixed the typo I spotted late!

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Hi Dougal,

Thanks for this. I was wondering why the Dutch Presses were even relevant, but now it makes sense that they are probably far more adjustable and expandable to larger hoop sizes than some of the other types out there.

Best,

Alan

[Chris Hennes]

Chris,

I think that you'll find that relative humidity recommendations for cheese and charcuterie can be substantially different.  Humidity for cheese seems to need to be in the 80%-95% ball park, whereas for charcuterie, as you know, that will cause some significant mold issues, and the meat/sausage will not dry nearly as quickly as it should.

Best,

Alan

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My hope was that keeping it at 75% would manage to do the trick for both. A little on the low side for cheese, but people have reported good success with that level for charcuterie. I could conceivably build the chamber as a two-compartment deal, with differing humidities, but I don't think I am going to be that ambitious.

[TheFuzzy]

Folks,

I know I can order rennet, ricotta baskets, etc. on the internet, but hey, I live in San Francisco ... there ought to be someplace I can buy these here.

Only I can't find any place. Is there?

(p.s. if there was a "where do I get" thread I was supposed to use, sorry ... I searched and couldn't find it)

[TheFuzzy]

Folks,

I'm about to order rennet. Does anyone have an opinion about Animal vs. Non-animal vs. GMO (I'm tempted to get it just for the un-PC value), in anything they've actually made?

My cheesemaking teacher came out fairly strongly in favor of animal rennet, although we used non-animal in the class.

Also, is there any value to the mozzarella culture which many cheesemaking suppliers sell?

[TheFuzzy]

All,

Just as a warning, the "ricotta" recipe in last month's Saveur magazine is bad. You'll end up with milk porrige.

[Chris Hennes]

All,

Just as a warning, the "ricotta" recipe in last month's Saveur magazine is bad.  You'll end up with milk porrige.

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Was there anything in particular different about it? Was this the article that began with the author talking about how easy she (he?) thought this would be, and then it turned out much more difficult? I don't have the issue handy, unfortunately, so I can't compare it to my other ricotta recipes.

[jvalentino]

Here's the link for the Saveur recipe-

http://saveur.com/article/Mise-en-Place/Ho...Ricotta-At-Home

I've only used buttermilk as a coagulant, but wanted to switch to rennet. Do you think it was just a matter of too much liquid mixed with it or something else?

Jeff

[andiesenji]

All,

Just as a warning, the "ricotta" recipe in last month's Saveur magazine is bad.  You'll end up with milk porrige.

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Was there anything in particular different about it? Was this the article that began with the author talking about how easy she (he?) thought this would be, and then it turned out much more difficult? I don't have the issue handy, unfortunately, so I can't compare it to my other ricotta recipes.

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If you are using commercial milk (the ultra-pasteurized stuff), you MUST add calcium chloride to it or you will not get the proper curd formation no matter what kind of coagulant you use.

Check the ingredients at this site.

[TheFuzzy]

Was there anything in particular different about it? Was this the article that began with the author talking about how easy she (he?) thought this would be, and then it turned out much more difficult? I don't have the issue handy, unfortunately, so I can't compare it to my other ricotta recipes.

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Yeah, apparently it's a bad idea to heat mild for a rennet-set cheese to 200F (ricotta is normally acid-set). You're basically ultra-pasturizing the cheese yourself; the curds won't coagulate well (according to Jim at Cheesemaking.com, as well as my own experience). I went through about 4 yards of cheesecloth sieving and squeezing to get any cheese out of it at all -- and in the end was able to salvage only about 8oz out of over a gallon of premium raw milk. That 8oz tasted pretty good, but wow, the expense ... $21 for less than a pound of cheese!

Also, the time for coagulation and the amount of rennet are both wrong as well as the possible yield, which says to me that the Saveur staff never actually tested the recipe as written.

Anyone recommend a particular cheesemaking book?

Edited September 5, 2008 by TheFuzzy (log)

[Adam Balic]

One thing that I'm curious about in this recipe is that it isn't ricotta as I thought I new it, basically is cottage cheese or curd cheese. My understanding was that "ricotta" implied a bit more then that.

Even when I have made it using whole milk, rather then whey, the curds were heated then skimmed out and placed in a mould.

[dougal]

Agreed, Adam.

The point about "ricotta" is that its re-cooked (ri-cotta) whey. Not curd. It is a means of extracting value from the leftovers after primary (curd) cheesemaking.

Dr Fankhauser gives one such method:

http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser/Chees.../RICOTTA_00.HTM

[Chris Hennes]

The book I have, "Home Cheese Making" by Ricki Carroll, has two recipes for "ricotta" -- one of them is called "Whole-Milk Ricotta" and says this:

Traditionally, ricotta is made by reheating the whey after making cheese from ewe's milk. ... This simple variation uses whole milk from the grocery store instead of whey; the resulting ricotta has a good flavor and a high yield.

In this recipe she heats the whole milk with citric acid to between 185 and 195, stirring frequently. As soon as the curds and whey separate the pot is removed from the heat and sits for ten minutes. Then it is ladled through butter muslin. She says you should get 1.5-2 pounds from a gallon of whole milk. Her traditional recipe calls for heating the whey and cider vinegar to 200F and yields 1 cup from 2 gallons of fresh whey.

[Adam Balic]

Quite, the Saveur article's recipe is simple drained curd. I'm pretty sure that the heating step will give a different flavour and texture to the final product.

So what the Saveur article is saying is "We tried various methods for making whole milk ricotta and found we actually prefer cottage cheese."

[toweringpine]

I once made cheese from powdered milk while on a long canoe trip. I doubt it would be worth doing at home where you could do much better but fresh cheese on day ten of the trip made the world a little cheerier!

[TheFuzzy]

So what the Saveur article is saying is "We tried various methods for making whole milk ricotta and found we actually prefer cottage cheese."

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Well, where I say that the recipe is a failure is that they heat the milk without citric acid, then use rennet to coagulate it (not acid), and instruct you to give the rennet only 10 minutes. The result was that I got less than half the yield from my $16/gallon milk than expected, because the curds didn't form well and couldn't be sieved out.

The fancy cottage cheese I ended up with was very good ... but not worth over $16/lbs. And the amount of work actually required was much greater than described (using large amounts of cheesecloth and squeezing out the whey, several times).

Ricotta, ultimately, is simply very-small-curd cottage cheese.

So, again ... book recommendations? Is the Ricki Carroll book the best for a home cheesemaker, or is another one?

Edited September 6, 2008 by TheFuzzy (log)

[Chris Hennes]

So, again ... book recommendations?  Is the Ricki Carroll book the best for a home cheesemaker, or is another one?

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I can't say whether it is "the best" since it's the only one I've got, but I find her fresh cheese recipes quite reliable, and they mostly hew to traditional ways of making the products, or at least discuss the divergences. My biggest tip for you is one you've just discovered for yourself: don't use expensive milk on recipes you have never made before . If fresh cheese is all you are looking for, though, the Carroll book is going to be overkill for you, since a lot of it discusses aged cheese. I have yet to make one successfully, in three tries, but I haven't given up just yet.

[TheFuzzy]

Chris,

OK, thanks. Ordered it through my local bookstore. We'll see.

Aged cheese would be fun, but realistically, I have no space (SF apartment). However, if I can make my own ricotta, paneer, queso fresco, etc., I'll be pretty happy. And the microwave mozzarella.

[dougal]

...

So, again ... book recommendations?  Is the Ricki Carroll book the best for a home cheesemaker, or is another one?

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Before buying any book, I'd suggest first familiarising yourself with the excellent material on Dr Fankhauser's site

http://biology.clc.uc.edu/Fankhauser/Cheese/cheese.html

His suggestion for a DIY cheese press does depend largely on the availability of something like his pan.

IMHO, it would generally be simpler to build one's own press in the style of a 'Dutch Press', with a pivoted lever arm.

http://www.ascott-dairy.co.uk/acatalog/Dut...Press-DP43.html

One thing to beware of, if you start pressing cheese, is the prevalence of superficially specific - but actually vague or misleading - recipe advice regarding the pressing force.

What matters is the pressure applied to the top of the cheese. Not the force applied!

For a specific diameter of 'hoop' (mould), the pressure produced will be proportional to the force applied. Change the hoop size (radius or diameter, the height doesn't matter), and the same specified force gives a different pressure!

And with the Dutch Press, the weight is hung from the end of the lever arm. Consequently, with different presses, one needs to be aware of the lever lengths (or rather proportions) to calculate the force that the lever delivers to each press's piston.

I've seen so many cheese recipes that specify a weight to apply, without explicitly mentioning the hoop size or even the type of press. If you aren't using the same type and size of press that the writer assumes, your result will be very different.

The pressures required are actually pretty gentle, of the order of a couple of psi, but you might not realise that from reading of "50lb weights" in some farm-scale recipes!

The thing is that a constant gentle pressure needs to be applied for several hours - so a simple screw press is probably the least suitable type - because it doesn't follow the shrinking cheese.

Particularly with small presses, an occasional small tap or vibration will help to overcome friction (or stiction!) in the cylinder and any joints, and allow the proper pressure to be applied to the cheese.

The big eye-opener for me was just how much milk one needed to get an appreciable weight of curd. So a very large saucepan is the starting point...

Edited September 9, 2008 by dougal (log)

[Sony]

Hello all,

I hope there's someone out there with experience making goat cheese (soft or chevre-style).....is it possible to make this at home without rennet? I've seen a few recipes floating out there that use mostly goat's milk, some buttermilk, but all include liquid or tablet rennet.

Please advise if it's not necessary and another coagulant (e.g. lemon juice, vinegar) can be used. I'd like to make cheese for a friend with dietary restrictions this weekend and am not sure I'd be able to get my hands on vegetarian rennet as quickly as I'd like.

Thanks!

[andiesenji]

Hello all,

I hope there's someone out there with experience making goat cheese (soft or chevre-style).....is it possible to make this at home without rennet? I've seen a few recipes floating out there that use mostly goat's milk, some buttermilk, but all include liquid or tablet rennet.

Please advise if it's not necessary and another coagulant (e.g. lemon juice, vinegar) can be used. I'd like to make cheese for a friend with dietary restrictions this weekend and am not sure I'd be able to get my hands on vegetarian rennet as quickly as I'd like.

Thanks!

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I have made a lot of goat cheese. It is easy.

You do need both a culture and a coagulant, otherwise it won't taste like anything but cottage cheese and won't form a strong curd.

Excellent instructions are HERE and there is explanation of the how and why.

You can also find some answers here. as well as supplies and etc.

The experts know what they are doing and won't steer you wrong.

I don't know where you are located but any health food store will have vegetarian rennet and will probably have a culture that will work - you can use one of the yogurt cultures in a pinch.

explaned here

Edited September 11, 2008 by andiesenji (log)

[Sony]

Thank you so much, andiesenji! This sounds like a fun project for the weekend.

[joesan]

I was getting all fired up to make some mozzarella but then I read a couple of posts upthread that say they ended up only with tasteless string cheese. Can anybody confirm that it is worth making any of the 30 minute mozzarella recipes?

Dr Frank looks like he knows what he is talking about but the process to make his mozzarella looks quite involved. Not that it may not be worth taking a more involved approach only that the idea of making mozzarella in 30 minutes is appealing.

What do you think - worth it or not?

[andiesenji]

Note my previous posts on using store-bought milk.

It will not make good cheese because of the process of "ultra-pasteurization" and homogenization.

You must add something to it to change the way the protein chains react. It isn't difficult or time-consuming, but you do have to compensate for the way it is processed.

Read the following, especially the section at the bottom about combining powdered milk with cream.

milk and cheese help

I use calcium chloride and citric acid (I simply use the "sour salt" found in any market in the section where you find Jewish/kosher foods).

I use Ricki's recipe for 30-minute mozzarella

and I use Alta Dena milk because it is a "local" dairy in southern California.

I have in the past gotten milk from a friend locally who has cows (also goats and sheep) and I have a home pasteurizer and process the milk myself prior to making cheese with it.

When I need to use milk with a higher butterfat content, I add manufacturers cream, also Alta Dena and NOT ultra-pasteurized.