Talking with chefs in Paris

[John Talbott]

I have taken the liberty, it being a long weekend here and such, to start a new thread asking folks to respond to the question that getxo asked elsewhere, specifically:

when dining at a fine restaurant (i.e., starred), what's wrong with asking to meet the chef in person after the meal-especially to know exactly who did the cooking and to offer praise or criticism?

Is it really absurd to think that say- Jacques Cagna is not working on a night when he said he would be in?

My answer is of course, why not?

But recall the old saw attributed to Ducasse, maybe apocryphal, "Who cooks when you're not here?" Ans: "The same guy as when I am here."

[pirate]

I have taken the liberty, it being a long weekend here and such, to start a new thread asking folks to respond to the question that getxo asked elsewhere, specifically:

when dining at a fine restaurant (i.e., starred), what's wrong with asking to meet the chef in person after the meal-especially to know exactly who did the cooking and to offer praise or criticism?

Is it really absurd to think that say- Jacques Cagna is not working on a night when he said he would be in?

My answer is of course, why not?

But recall the old saw attributed to Ducasse, maybe apocryphal, "Who cooks when you're not here?" Ans: "The same guy as when I am here."

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I would be concerned to do that at a time the kitchen was busy. From my experience if you regularly eat at a restaurant of reasonable size, the staff informs the Chef of your presence and special care is taken.

Edited November 12, 2005 by pirate (log)

[MobyP]

I have taken the liberty, it being a long weekend here and such, to start a new thread asking folks to respond to the question that getxo asked elsewhere, specifically:

when dining at a fine restaurant (i.e., starred), what's wrong with asking to meet the chef in person after the meal-especially to know exactly who did the cooking and to offer praise or criticism?

Is it really absurd to think that say- Jacques Cagna is not working on a night when he said he would be in?

My answer is of course, why not?

But recall the old saw attributed to Ducasse, maybe apocryphal, "Who cooks when you're not here?" Ans: "The same guy as when I am here."

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That expression has been doing the rounds, having been heard most recently from Keller. But I believe that Bocuse is the linguistinc pappy to that particular aphorism.

Edited November 12, 2005 by MobyP (log)

[getxo]

My answer is of course, why not?

But recall the old saw attributed to Ducasse, maybe apocryphal, "Who cooks when you're not here?"  Ans: "The same guy as when I am here."

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John,

Thanks for your courteous response.

My question assumes a polite request beforehand to the staff to meet with the chef (e.g., Ducasse) on a particular night.

Without being obtrusive or taking liberties, a foodie (who may be an amateur chef) can provide useful input to a chef (or chef de cuisine). In fact, I imagine speaking to the chef de cuisine for any of Ducasse's restaurants could me more informative.

My experience is that the best chefs take tremendous pride in their work and often enjoy the banter with a discerning palate. A chef in top form (whether at a starred or non-starred restaurant) especially appreciates constructive criticism, instead of gushing praise.

They understand food is indeed "serious" business to certain diners and are more than willing to oblige a question or two about their craft.

I was just wondering what limits were acceptable.

Henry

[Mayur]

My answer is of course, why not?

But recall the old saw attributed to Ducasse, maybe apocryphal, "Who cooks when you're not here?"  Ans: "The same guy as when I am here."

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John,

Thanks for your courteous response.

My question assumes a polite request beforehand to the staff to meet with the chef (e.g., Ducasse) on a particular night.

Without being obtrusive or taking liberties, a foodie (who may be an amateur chef) can provide useful input to a chef (or chef de cuisine). In fact, I imagine speaking to the chef de cuisine for any of Ducasse's restaurants could me more informative.

My experience is that the best chefs take tremendous pride in their work and often enjoy the banter with a discerning palate. A chef in top form (whether at a starred or non-starred restaurant) especially appreciates constructive criticism, instead of gushing praise.

They understand food is indeed "serious" business to certain diners and are more than willing to oblige a question or two about their craft.

I was just wondering what limits were acceptable.

Henry

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Henry,

While I am not John, I might offer a few suggestions, having worked the front and back of a dining room myself. First off, it all depends on the chef. Some of them have absolutely NO desire to make what they see as idle chitchat with customers after having spent (or worse, WHILE spending) a seventeen- or eighteen-hour day at work. Others can get somewhat grumpy, but may open up in the face of insightful and interesting conversation, especially if you have the courtesy to call ahead or wait until the kitchen is shut down (I find myself in the latter position quite often, since I tend to start meals at about 8-8:30 and frequently end up eating for four to five hours.) Still others seem to embrace the experience; I had a wonderful discussion with Gerard Boyer at Les Crayeres when I was 13 and knew almost nothing about food (and spoke execrable French to boot).

It's all an issue of personality, and perhaps of changing eras; I remember going out to eat at (NYT-rated) four-star restaurants in NYC with the almost assured knowledge that the chef would be out touring the dining room and chatting with regulars and with interested newcomers at some point in the evening. In recent times, the only two I've seen do that in New York are Mario Batali and Jean-Georges Vongerichten (the latter of who came out with my cheese selection in hand on our last dinner!).

Of course, in some instances, younger chefs are quite welcoming to serious diners: I've had wonderful conversations with Dan Barber (of Blue Hill in NY) and with David Kinch at Manresa in Los Gatos, CA; in the latter case, we were invited to tour the kitchen after dinner without asking, and Mr. Kinch spent quite a long time discussing cooking techniques and inspirations for particular dishes with me.

While it is true that the best chefs do appreciate constructive criticism, there are some who simply prefer to avoid interactions outside the kitchen, especially given the tense atmosphere of some kitchens and the frequent publicity junkets that some chefs find themselves upon.

I might suggest polling this forum to see who's up for this sort of interaction and who isn't before heading to a particular restaurant.

That's it for the general statements. However, I think that these apply with some force to Paris, especially the last one (ask here to see what the expected reactions of the chefs at the places you're going will be). In Paris, I have had excellent conversations with Mr. Ducasse (a long time and two restaurants ago) and with Alain Passard (also a while ago). However, I was unable to talk with Eric Frechon at Le Bristol on my recent visit, despite the incredibly warm welcome of the staff (M. Frechon was just too busy), and my attempts at engaging M. Pacaud at L'Ambroisie were likewise unsuccessful. In both cases, I probably could have pushed it, but then it wouldn't have been an enjoyable conversation for the chefs, and thus not productive or fun for anyone.

Edited November 13, 2005 by Mayur (log)

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Write the chef a letter with your praise and opinions.

Consider that the person who is chatting and being photographed with the chef is taking the chef out of the kitchen when he might be addressing your meal.

In many dining rooms, the chef will circulate at the end of the last service. If this kind of communication is important to you, you might consider booking for the last seating.

[Ptipois]

That expression has been doing the rounds, having been heard most recently from Keller. But I believe that Bocuse is the linguistinc pappy to that particular aphorism.

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It was Bocuse, to a journalist.

[degusto]

But recall the old saw attributed to Ducasse, maybe apocryphal, "Who cooks when you're not here?"  Ans: "The same guy as when I am here."

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Ducasse was a little less modest when playing down the need for him to be present in his kitchens. He said: «On ne s’attend pas à ce qu’Enzo Ferrari ait vissé chaque boulon d’une voiture avant de la vendre à un client». It would translate into English that you don’t expect Enzo Ferrari puts all the nuts on to the cars that he sells.

[John Talbott]

Two thoughts:

it all depends on the chef. Some of them have absolutely NO desire to make what they see as idle chitchat with customers after having spent (or worse, WHILE spending) a seventeen- or eighteen-hour day at work. Others can get somewhat grumpy, but may open up in the face of insightful and interesting conversation, especially if you have the courtesy to call ahead or wait until the kitchen is shut down (I find myself in the latter position quite often, since I tend to start meals at about 8-8:30 and frequently end up eating for four to five hours.) Still others seem to embrace the experience; I had a wonderful discussion with Gerard Boyer at Les Crayeres when I was 13 and knew almost nothing about food (and spoke execrable French to boot).

There do seem to be three types: (1) the frontroom guys like Passard who spends a lot of (what he must judge useful) time out front, chatting, inquiring, schmoozing; (2) the painfully shy, busy or reluctant chefs, like the most amiable but hardworking Cyril Lalanne whose charming wife Maryse is definately the more comfortable one at public relations or those who, as Margaret and others have pointed out, work the front only after the mains have been served; and (3) a third type, the inbetween folks like Bouchet who stands at the front of his "California" kitchen finishing off each dish while watching the salle intensely and knowing somehow when to come a few feet out to greet, talk, thank or say goodbye.

As for:

Ducasse was a little less modest when playing down the need for him to be present in his kitchens. He said: «On ne s’attend pas à ce qu’Enzo Ferrari ait vissé chaque boulon d’une voiture avant de la vendre à un client». It would translate into English that you don’t expect Enzo Ferrari puts all the nuts on to the cars that he sells.

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Another, offtopic apocryphal story told about Ferrari (parodied by Peter Ustinoff) is his reply to why his cars' brakes always gave out a few km from the finish of Grand Prix events - it was something like "Any idiot can make a car stop but it takes a genius to make them go fast." On second thought, maybe it does applying to cooking too.

[robert brown]

Of course you can always ask if the chef hasn't already showed his face or marched around the dining room like a matador or a long-distnace runner taking his victory lap. If you don't see the chef before the end of your meal and then ask to meet hin, be prepared to hear "the chef has already gone home". There's a good chance it means he wasn't there in the first place.

[ulterior epicure]

I've nearly always ask to visit with the chef (if I'm interested) and nearly always welcomed to do so. I've had one or two instances where it was obvious the chef wasn't too comfortable with interactions, but I've had chefs even sit down and chat with me at the table (rare, but it has happened). I guess you just have to feel out the staff when you get there. I always politely ask, but don't push it if I feel any resistence or hesitation...

I suspect that the below quote is true perhaps because the younger chefs have come to accept the "stardom" of chefs nowadays, where as the more established chefs still see themselves as "people of their trade" - really focused on pleasing the palate rather than the personalities.

U.E.

Of course, in some instances, younger chefs are quite welcoming to serious diners: I've had wonderful conversations with Dan Barber (of Blue Hill in NY) and with David Kinch at Manresa in Los Gatos, CA; in the latter case, we were invited to tour the kitchen after dinner without asking, and Mr. Kinch spent quite a long time discussing cooking techniques and inspirations for particular dishes with me.

[ulterior epicure]

...pity, Jean-Georges didn't show when I visited... but J. Iuzzini did prepare a special dessert for me after my dessert... which sent me in a tizzy, as I have been a great fan of his for a long time. I also got a chance to talk with him and he was very personable.

No Batali sightings - although Daniel Boulud did make the effort to make the rounds, albeit quickly, on my last visit - even though he was hosting (and cooking) for a private reception for Bocuse in the back party room.

Eric Ripert rushed in and out of the kitchen in his whites, but didn't have time to stop to say hello (despite my request). Either he's not the chatty type, or he was extremely busy... I think he was in the kitchen for a total of ten minutes during my meal (I saw him come and go). Anyone have any personal interactions with Ripert?

U.E.

I remember going out to eat at (NYT-rated) four-star restaurants in NYC with the almost assured knowledge that the chef would be out touring the dining room and chatting with regulars and with interested newcomers at some point in the evening. In recent times, the only two I've seen do that in New York are Mario Batali and Jean-Georges Vongerichten (the latter of who came out with my cheese selection in hand on our last dinner!).

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[Bux]

. . . .

I suspect that the below quote is true perhaps because the younger chefs have come to accept the "stardom" of chefs nowadays, where as the more established chefs still see themselves as "people of their trade" - really focused on pleasing the palate rather than the personalities.

. . . .

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Having met a few chefs in the older generation and the younger generation, assuming we are talking of the same age gap, I don't think that's particularly true. I've never met David Kinch, but I've had e-mail correspondence with him and from what I've read here, he doesn't seem particularly struck by his own stardom. That sort of attitude might be more applicable to the TV chefs, but even there I'd not tar the lot with the same brush and note that it's their media stardom and not their chef stardom that might be the problem.

I know Dan Barber. I'd go so far as to say we're friends, but it's not as if we socialize together. He's very shy and for years avoided making any sort of appearance in the dining room. his original co-chef, Alex Urena, was even shyer and more uncomfortable in the dining room. Once he came out of the kitchen at Marseille (a restaurant in NY in which he was the chef right after he left Blue Hill) to say hello to a friend at our table. Another diner at our table then put him on the spot with her interrogation and his discomfort was palpable, as was my embarrassment. I had hoped he'd remember meeting me at Blue Hill and then all of a sudden I hoped he hadn't.

Dan, on the other hand, has made great strides in his public poise. We caught him once on TV and were struck by how well poised he had become in public. Dan, however, is not a TV personality chef, but he has been a spokesperson for sustainable farming and his restaurant in the suburbs is connected with a farm that is also part of an experimental and educational foundation. I suspect it's his commitment to education that's brought him out. It's worth noting to those who haven't read his op-ed pieces in the NY Times that Dan has a strong academic background and is very articulate. That should help him a bit.

If Daniel Boulud is old enough to be part of the established generation, it might be worth noting my experiences with him. It might also be worth noting that I am very shy and not particularly outgoing. I don't always like to meet the chef and have been known to lessen my appearances at restaurants I frequent solely because they are convenient. I don't like to talk to the chef or owner unless I am honestly able to praise their food highly. Daniel is a man who is absolutely charming and gracious in public (and private as well, unless, as I hear, you really screw up on the line) and could have easily made a living as a maitre d' if he couldn't cook. In the early days of his original Restaurant Daniel he seemed to be working the room far more often than he does now. The best time to get to know a chef is when he's just opened his first restaurant and eager to develop a clientele. Even then, we found him more relaxed at lunch than dinner and it was after a leisurely lunch celebrating our daughter's graduation from college that we got to begin what turned out to be a rewarding relationship. Mrs. B and I had just returned from a visit to Lyon and that caught Daniel's attention as he's a native son. At some point he made a remark in French, our daughter replied in French and the two of them went off on their own tangent. She wangled a stage at the restaurant, if only to keep those who were asking what she was going to do with a degree as a history major, with a strong suit in French literature, on their toes. Today, I consider Daniel a friend, but as with Dan, I don't usually socialize with him--unless the event revolves around my daughter.

[robert brown]

I am in the camp that believes a chef's food should speak for itself. I don't like chefs making a tour of the dining room. I see what it does to many people who are visibly nervous and can't say much beyond "very good", sometimes untruthfully. When I see a chef walk into the room and start going around, I feel I have to come up with something seemingly intelligent to ask or state. I somehow always manage to acquit myself with something sort of witty or off-center, but the worse the meal is, the harder it is to come up with something. I could give you a long list of the circulation habits of famous chefs. I think the best approach is that practiced by chefs who make themselves visible and accessible if you want to talk with them, but in such a way that you can leave the restaurant without his being aware of it. I can admit, however, that if I have had a glorious meal and that the chef will know I'm not bullshitting, I am pleased to make him momentarily happy because it's only human, no matter how great or how experiences you are, to receive genuine praise.

[Bux]

I agree that the food should speak for itself. Meeting a chef has never improved the meal that's come before the meeting. On the other hand, actually speaking with a chef, or artist, whose work you really admire, can be a treat. I suspect the business of making the rounds began all innocently enough as an attempt to welcome diners graciously and personally to the restaurant. It's taken on a formality that is often uncomfortable for some diners and some chefs. At this points some chefs are damned if they do and others are damned if they don't

[ulterior epicure]

Re: making the rounds.

I actually was shocked when I first saw a high-powered chef doing so... I would have thought they would want to avoid the starry-eyed gawking and gushing... I guess some don't mind (or even enjoy it)...

Recently, Detournier toured his room during a lunch service... and, as I mentioned, Daniel Boulud has also done so.

U.E.

[John Talbott]

My experience is that the best chefs take tremendous pride in their work and often enjoy the banter with a discerning palate. A chef in top form (whether at a starred or non-starred restaurant) especially appreciates constructive criticism, instead of gushing praise.

During a very, very nice meal at Maxan today (that I'll post about soon) where I did not talk to but watched the chef watch us, I had another thought. The big guys, you know who they are, serving their 500th serving of salmon, don't really want to know what you think, come-on, will it really change what they do? But a young guy in his first chef-owned (well - with the bank and investors and such) place would probably sincerely like your reaction. Paradoxically, though the biggies have brigades of staff they can easily leave for a few minutes while the new guy just has a plongeur whom I'm not sure he'd trust with what's on the stove.

[Bux]

. . .  a young guy in his first chef-owned (well - with the bank and investors and such) place would probably sincerely like your reaction.  Paradoxically, though the biggies have brigades of staff they can easily leave for a few minutes while the new guy just has a plongeur whom I'm not sure he'd trust with what's on the stove.

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It's always sad to think of Loiseau, but one of my favorite quotes from Burgundy Stars, William Echikson's book on him, is when he introduces his sous chef as the guy who cooks Loiseau better than I do. I suspect some of the useful, if not necessary, talents for a chef to have if he's ever going to be a biggie, is knowing how to spot talent, hire it and train it. Leslie Brenner in her book on Daniel talks of the time Boulud went to Lyon with his executive chef, fully confident his third in command could run the restaurant for a week or more.

[ulterior epicure]

Leslie Brenner in her book on Daniel talks of the time Boulud went to Lyon with his executive chef, fully confident his third in command could run the restaurant for a week or more.

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....Ahh, but Brenner wrote the book after Daniel had been demoted to three stars... albeit, he was able to regain it again under Grimes. But, Bruni has yet to comment...

By the way, where's Alex Lee now?

U.E.

[Bux]

Leslie Brenner in her book on Daniel talks of the time Boulud went to Lyon with his executive chef, fully confident his third in command could run the restaurant for a week or more.

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....Ahh, but Brenner wrote the book after Daniel had been demoted to three stars... albeit, he was able to regain it again under Grimes. But, Bruni has yet to comment...

By the way, where's Alex Lee now?

U.E.

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Grimes' stars were irrelevant to the quality of the cooking. I remain convinced he had his own agenda. In any event, it was interesting that he reversed his decision rather quickly and reviewed Daniel before getting around to covering many of the other top restaurants. I think he realized he needed to do that to restore some credibility. for a number of reasons I had close access to the restaurant in those days, it may have overlapped with the period in which I was helping Daniel understand what he wanted in the way of a web site. Although Grimes was able to cite changes in the menu to support his claim of improvement, all of the changes I saw at the time were the kinds of little things Boulud had been doing since the inception of his first restaurant. He's a restless chef always intent on changing things. Oddly enough the one dish that never went off the menu and wasn't changed to my knowledge, was the one dish that Grimes held up for his most savage contempt in his first review. It went unmentioned in the second review. What Daniel did do in that time was make a number of changes to the dining room itself. In my opinion most of the early changes were for the worse and the worst of those have disappeared, but somehow they were all overlooked in the second Grimes review. So don't get me started on Grimes and Daniel. If there is a flaw, or skew to Brener's book, it was that the Americans in the kitchen spoke freely to her, while the French had a tendency to keep their thoughts private. Thus she got more insight from the American line chefs than from the French and the perspective may show, although I don't think it's her fault, or necessarily a fault in the book.

There was a thread on Alex in the NY forum. He's the chef at a country club near where he lives. The commute is short and the hours are far better than working in a top Manahattan restaurant kitchen. He gets to spend much more time with his kids. There was however, speculation that he might be looking to open his own restaurant. I'm not in a position to offer anything other than speculation myself and it wouldn't surprise me if he did, or if he didn't, open a restaurant. He's still close to Daniel Boulud and prepared a salad of smoked short ribs, baby beets and leek with a horseradish mustard cream for a luncheon celebrating Daniel's 50th birthday to which many of Daniel's cooks and alumni contributed.

[Mayur]

Grimes' stars were irrelevant to the quality of the cooking. I remain convinced he had his own agenda.

Second that. I recall absolutely NO difference in the quality of the food around the time of Grimes' review; in fact, while my experiences at the 76th St. address are tinted with the rosy halo of fond memory, I think the cooking at Daniel may well have shown nothing but improvement over the years.

[ulterior epicure]

Grimes' stars were irrelevant to the quality of the cooking. I remain convinced he had his own agenda.

I'll take your word for it - you seem much more in the know about Daniel than I. Not to make anyone uncomfortable... but I think I might still have been in grammar school when the book was being written...

Oddly enough the one dish that never went off the menu and wasn't changed to my knowledge, was the one dish that Grimes held up for his most savage contempt in his first review. It went unmentioned in the second review.

Is that his "fish in potato papillote?

What Daniel did do in that time was make a number of changes to the dining room itself. In my opinion most of the early changes were for the worse and the worst of those have disappeared, but somehow they were all overlooked in the second Grimes review. So don't get me started on Grimes and Daniel.   

Bux, you and I have "talked" briefly on that... I didn't appreciate it for what it's worth before that... still, not my style.

There was a thread on Alex in the NY forum. He's the chef at a country club near where he lives. The commute is short and the hours are far better than working in a top Manahattan restaurant kitchen. He gets to spend much more time with his kids.

That's what I heard...

There was however, speculation that he might be looking to open his own restaurant. I'm not in a position to offer anything other than speculation myself and it wouldn't surprise me if he did, or if he didn't, open a restaurant.

...this is what I was hoping to hear more about.

Thanks Bux!

[Bux]

Let's agree to limit the discussion on Daniel Boulud, a Frenchman at least, and Alex Lee in this forum. To answer the questions though, it was the herb ravioli which Grimes described as inferior to that which can be had at any run of the mill trattoria, and should I ever hear news related to Alex's professional moves, I will report them in the most suitable place to which I have access to post, which is not likely to be the France forum, unless he opens a restaurant in France. The red wine in the Crisp Paupiette of Sea Bass in a Barolo Sauce, seems to have changed from Barolo to syrah and back if I'm not mistaken, but Daniel has said his clientele has not allowed him to remove it from the menu although his cooks are often weary of making the dish. Mention may belong in this forum as Boulud credits Bocuse with the inspiration for the dish.

Paul Bocuse's Rouget en Écailles de Pomme de Terre inspired this exquisite dish of tender fish fillets wrapped in a crisp crust of sliced potatoes. But since those beautifully briny red mullets from the Mediterranean are rarely available in this country, I suggest sea bass, which makes a superb substitute. For the sauce, I chose Barolo wine, one of the best wines of Piemonte (northwestern Italy), in honor of Sirio Maccioni, the owner of Le Cirque restaurant. I was duly flattered when Chef Bocuse sent the chefs from his restaurant at Epcot Center in Florida to Le Cirque to learn my adaptation of his recipe.

[ulterior epicure]

Let's agree to limit the discussion on Daniel Boulud, a Frenchman at least, and Alex Lee in this forum.

Agreed!

To answer the questions though, it was the herb ravioli which Grimes described as inferior to that which can be had at any run of the mill trattoria,

I had this dish, or a variation of it. Looking back at my notes - it was a "Nine Herb Tortellini in Porcini cream, roasted tomatoes and walnuts. While I certainly wouldn't have demoted to Grimes' level, I do remember envying (very much) my friend's Reblochon and Fontina Agnolotti with ovoli - mine just tasted bland in comparison... but by no means "trattoria..."

and should I ever hear news related to Alex's professional moves, I will report them in the most suitable place to which I have access to post, which is not likely to be the France forum, unless he opens a restaurant in France.

It was just a passing curiosity.

The red wine in the Crisp Paupiette of Sea Bass in a Barolo Sauce, seems to have changed from Barolo to syrah and back if I'm not mistaken, but Daniel has said his clientele has not allowed him to remove it from the menu although his cooks are often weary of making the dish. Mention may belong in this forum as Boulud credits Bocuse with the inspiration for the dish.

Right... that's what I meant to say. Papiette of Sea Bass... geez, I'm really showing my "greeness."

Edited November 15, 2005 by ulterior epicure (log)

[Margaret Pilgrim]

I suspect some of the useful, if not necessary, talents for a chef to have if he's ever going to be a biggie, is knowing how to spot talent, hire it and train it.

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The definition of any successful business executive. Although in my experience, the talent was necessary, not merely useful.