Cuisinart vs. All-Clad vs. XXX Cookware

[JAZ]

I'm with FG on Sitram (a home cook really can't go wrong with either of their lines), but as long as you're in the neighborhood, check out Demeyere. They have a comparably priced line called Apollo that (I think) rivals Sitram in quality of material and perhaps exceeds it in construction. If you're lazy like me, you'll appreciate that Demeyere is the only major top-of-the-line manufacturer that actually recommends the dishwasher.

I love Demeyere. I have several pieces of their higher end, copper-core line, Sirocco. The Apollo is great too, but I like the way the Sirocco looks (yes, I know, serious cooks don't care about the looks of their cookware, but I do). It's very expensive, though -- since I work in a cookware store, I'm able to get a discount. I'm not sure if I'd spend the money otherwise. The Apollo line, though, is a pretty good deal considering the quality. One thing that I like about both lines is that the handles to the pots and lids are not riveted, so you don't have to clean crud out of the rivets as you do on, for instance, All Clad.

[slkinsey]

I'm with FG on Sitram (a home cook really can't go wrong with either of their lines), but as long as you're in the neighborhood, check out Demeyere. They have a comparably priced line called Apollo that (I think) rivals Sitram in quality of material and perhaps exceeds it in construction. If you're lazy like me, you'll appreciate that Demeyere is the only major top-of-the-line manufacturer that actually recommends the dishwasher.

I love Demeyere. I have several pieces of their higher end, copper-core line, Sirocco. The Apollo is great too, but I like the way the Sirocco looks (yes, I know, serious cooks don't care about the looks of their cookware, but I do). It's very expensive, though...

Yes, it is very well-made... and very expensive indeed. Dave, I hate to condradict you, but I have to disagree that Demeyere Apollo is comparably priced to Sitram or competitive on a cost/performance basis. I took a few minutes to poke around and get an idea of typical Internet prices for a 1 qt saucepot and came up with something like this (numbers rounded):

All-Clad Copper Core:_______$160

Demeyere Sirocco:_________$130

Falk Culinair:_____________$120

All-Clad Stainless:__________$110

All-Clad Copper Core (second):_$110

All-Clad MasterChef:_________$80

Demeyere Apollo:___________$70

All-Clad Stainless (second):____$60

All-Clad MasterChef (second): __$50

Sitram Catering:____________$50

Sitram Profisserie:___________$30

So, really, the only products that Demeyere Sirocco is competitive with in terms of price are Falk Culinair, All-Clad Copper Core seconds and All-Clad Stainless at full retail. The Falk, IMO, should clearly beat the Demeyere in terms of performance, if not ease of maintenance. I'd also be awfully tempted to buy the All-Clad Copper Core over the Demeyere for that price as well, since it has a full internal layer of copper as opposed to Demeyere's copper-plus-other-stuff disk bottom design.

Demeyere Apollo is roughly competitive price-wise with All-Clad MasterChef at full retail and All-Clad Stainless at a discounted price. Sirocco, as you can see, is almost three times the price of Sitram Catering, and Apollo costs a good 40% more than Sitram Catering. I would say that Apollo is roughly equal to Sitram Profisserie and Paderno Grand Gourmet in terms of basic design, as these three employ a thick aluminum disk bottom design (Paderno doesn't make a 1 qt saucepot, so I did not include them above). Sitram Profisserie is less than half the price.

My feeling about Demeyere is more or less my feeling about All-Clad, only more so: very nice product, but horribly over priced. If I could get the deep discounts that I assume JAZ is able to get, I'd probably give it a try and get a piece or two. I like having cookware from a lot of different manufacturers, so I'd love to have some. But at these prices? No way. Hmmm... maybe JAZ can hook me up?

[Bux]

Lots of cookware shops offer professional discounts to restaurant cooks. Someone could tap into a nice market by offering that discount to eGullet members, perhaps.

[slkinsey]

Lots of cookware shops offer professional discounts to restaurant cooks. Someone could tap into a nice market by offering that discount to eGullet members, perhaps.

On the one hand that would be totally cool... but on the other hand, I wonder whether or not it would be terribly ethical.

[Fat Guy]

Lots of cookware shops offer professional discounts to restaurant cooks. Someone could tap into a nice market by offering that discount to eGullet members, perhaps.

On the one hand that would be totally cool... but on the other hand, I wonder whether or not it would be terribly ethical.

So long as nobody is misrepresenting credentials, I can't see an ethical objection to offering a discount to a group of potentially excellent customers.

What I wonder about is the utility of the discount. I have a feeling that if you hunt around for sales you can do better than what restaurants pay for single pieces. Restaurants need to have exactly the thing they need at exactly the time they need it, and they pay a premium for that lack of flexibility. In other words, if pot X costs $100 retail, a restaurant can probably get it for $70, a lazy consumer will pay the full $100, but a consumer willing to shop around can probably find it for $50-$60 with a little patience. That's my guess, at least.

[slkinsey]

Lots of cookware shops offer professional discounts to restaurant cooks. Someone could tap into a nice market by offering that discount to eGullet members, perhaps.

On the one hand that would be totally cool... but on the other hand, I wonder whether or not it would be terribly ethical.

So long as nobody is misrepresenting credentials, I can't see an ethical objection to offering a discount to a group of potentially excellent customers.

D'oh! I misunderstood... somehow I got the idea he was suggesting that someone in the restaurant business buy cookware with an industry discount and resell to eGullet members. Upon re-reading, it doesn't seem to be the suggestion he was making.

[trillium]

Try this link for some discussions about Sitram, All-Clad, Paderno etc.

Don't know who the guy is, don't even know if he knows what he's talking about, but if nothing else he's very opinonated about his cookware.

You are kidding, right? I might add that it's not the only thing he's opinionated about. There are a lot of usenet vets about the place....

regards,

trillium

Kidding about what?

I specifically said, "Don't know who the guy is, don't even know if he knows what he's talking about", thus leaving it up to whoever clicks the link to decide if he was worth listening to.

I merely filtered the search on his name because just about any discussion of length concerning Sitram includes him as a participant. As all links on that page lead to a discussion, it's just as easily to read the replies of those who disagree with him and choose your side, or choose no side at all.

I was teasing Mr. Kinsey... about the "Don't know who the guy is, don't even know if he knows what he's talking about" part. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I just thought it was funny. I thought maybe you were teasing him too.

regards,

trillium

[Bux]

I was suggesting that eGullet offered a good market for retailers to try and tap with a discount offer. I don't know if it's workable or worthwhile or not, but it's certainly ethical. My comment about discounts to professional cooks was more about a cook buying a piece of equipment whether for professional or home use, than about a restaurants acquisition of equipment. Actually, we should assume a professional is always buying equipment for professional use, even if that use will be in his apartment to test recipes.

I'd also suggest that many members pay a premium for convenience. A serious cook who decides he has a real need for a piece of equipment may do a bit of comparison shopping, but quite often, he will want fairly immediate satisfaction of his need, especially if he has a dinner party coming up.

[slkinsey]

I was teasing Mr. Kinsey... about the "Don't know who the guy is, don't even know if he knows what he's talking about" part.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.  I just thought it was funny.  I thought maybe you were teasing him too.

That's Mister Kinsey to you, Trillium!

Oh... wait... nevermind.

[MatthewB]

Anyone have any experience and/or opinions with/on the Calphalon Tri-ply Copper?

[slkinsey]

I was suggesting that eGullet offered a good market for retailers to try and tap with a discount offer. I don't know if it's workable or worthwhile or not, but it's certainly ethical.

Yea... I figured that out as noted in my post above.

I wonder whether eGullet would generate enough business for an online retailer to make it worth it for the retailer... I kind of doubt it because, in order to generate enough sales, they would not only have to offer a wide enough range of brands to satisfy the varied preferences (and wallets) of the readership here, but they would also have to beat things like the occasional Amazon.com Calphalon sale. I also wonder how they would react to the users, and especially the leadership, publicizing cookware deals here that were offered by other retailers.

[Bux]

All good questions. Push a crappy product here and you're likely to be dead meat. Our knowledgeable members would probably cut the product to shreds online when they saw it. On the other hand, get a good tool in the hands of a member who's pleased with the results and the price and you'll find it recommended all over. I imagine eGullet members to be the kind of people their friends all ask about what to buy and where to eat when it comes to food and dining. I think sales to eGullet members may be more important than the numbers might indicate. It's just a thought and you're right in pointing out that any offer would find competition in the posts by members of onlines sales. That kind of communication amomg members is certainly one of our strengths.

[slkinsey]

Anyone have any experience and/or opinions with/on the Calphalon Tri-ply Copper?

I haven't used any of it (nor did I know it existed until you mentioned it)... but I did look it up on the web and found the following description from the Calphalon web site:

Calphalon Tri-Ply Copper cookware’s brushed copper exterior not only brings lustrous warmth and classic beauty to your home. It also contributes to the superior conductivity and cooking performance of each pan. (Copper is among nature’s best conductors of heat.) Calphalon Tri-Ply Copper pans feature an inner core of pure, heavy-gauge aluminum. Aluminum is another highly conductive metal—and the thicker the aluminum, the more conductive the pan. Together, copper and aluminum guarantee quick searing, beautiful browning and the precise cooking control you need to achieve spectacular results in the kitchen.

Calphalon Tri-Ply Copper cookware’s 18/10 stainless steel interior surface is non-reactive. It won’t tarnish or change color when you cook acidic foods like tomato sauce. It’s also highly reflective. That makes it easy to see inside the pan—to judge color and texture changes that indicate when foods are properly cooked.

This description strongly indicates to me that the main conductive material is aluminum and that the copper exterior is more or less a thin outer lining for looks, which would make these pans very similar to All-Clad's Cop-R-Chef line. If the Calphalon Tri-Ply Copper really included enough copper to confer a significant thermal advantage, I have to think that they would make a big deal about it in their prommotional materials. The fact that they refer to it as a "copper exterior" makes their claim that it "contributes to the superior conductivity and cooking performance" a little disingenuous, if you ask me, especially when combined with their later claim that "the thicker the aluminum, the more conductive the pan." Basically, it seems to offer all the performance of aluminum with all the maintenance hassle of copper.

On the other hand... if one is into this kind of cookware, the prices compare quite favorably with what I believe to be near-identical Cop-R-Chef from All-Clad. A 1 qt Cop-R-Chef saucepot retails at $170 and sells at around $110 as a second. Amazon.com is selling a 1.5 quart Calphalon Tri-Ply Copper for 70 bucks.

[MatthewB]

Hmmmm.

I asked about the Calphalon as I've been planning to purchase some Falk pans when I felt like giving up the money.

But after reading this thread, I'm doubting that I would get much advantage from the Falk with home cooking.

What to do, what to do?

[slkinsey]

Hmmmm.

I asked about the Calphalon as I've been planning to purchase some Falk pans when I felt like giving up the money.

But after reading this thread, I'm doubting that I would get much advantage from the Falk with home cooking.

What to do, what to do?

Whether or not you would get much advantage out of a heavy copper pan really depends on what kind of cooking you do, what food you most often make, what style of pan you like to use the most... that sort of thing. I certainly wouldn't say that I get a huge advantage out of using copper every time I cook, but it's great to have for those times I do want it. Going back to an earlier analogy, it's kind of like having a Ferrari... you may drive it <60 mph most of the time, but for those times when you want to open it up to 120 mph, there is no substitute. Since it is expensive, I was pretty picky and choosey about the copper pans I acquired and only bought pans styles I was sure I would use very often (saute and fry pans) or occasionally-used pans for which copper offered a real advantage (sauce pan for actual sauce making, reduction pan).

What cookware pieces were you thinking of getting? Saute pan? Sauce pot? Fry pan? Stock pot?

[MatthewB]

What cookware pieces were you thinking of getting?  Saute pan?  Sauce pot?  Fry pan?  Stock pot?

I'm pretty well set on stockpots & fry pans. (Le Creuset & Lodge, respectively.)

I was thinking about one saute pan & two or three sauce pots, at least for a start. I'm not really into big sets, etc. I'd rather purchase what I'll use.

Thoughts?

[slkinsey]

What cookware pieces were you thinking of getting?  Saute pan?  Sauce pot?  Fry pan?  Stock pot?

I'm pretty well set on stockpots & fry pans. (Le Creuset & Lodge, respectively.)

I was thinking about one saute pan & two or three sauce pots, at least for a start. I'm not really into big sets, etc. I'd rather purchase what I'll use.

Thoughts?

Well... as you may have guessed, I really like the Sitram Catering saute pan with the 2.5 mm copper disk bottom. The Sitram Profisserie pan with a 7 mm aluminum base is pretty killer as well. If you want a curve-sided saute pan, Paderno Grand Gourmet makes a deep "fry pan" that might fit the bill. I also have what Paderno calls a paella pan for big sauteing jobs. This 14 inch pan wouldn't be my first choice for Paella, but the huge aluminum base really soaks up the heat and allows you to put a lot of food in the pan -- the lack of a long handle saves space on the stove and in storage.

In terms of sauce pans, if you think you'll ever be making emulsified sauces or doing big time reductions, you might think of spending bucks on one fully clad pan. Otherwise, all you need is a good conductive base to spread around the heat. I happen to think that the Paderno Grand Gourmet saucepots with a 7 mm aluminum base really kick ass, but the two Sitram lines are also very good.

[MatthewB]

Good info, thanks.

I'll do some research & then ask further questions.

[Susan in FL]

I just read this thread -- good information! -- and wanted to bump it up to see if there are updates. I need to replace some of my old stuff. Two years later, are you all still as satisfied with your cookware? Would you still make the same recommendations now? I'm especially interested in your follow-up comments on the Chefmate from Target and other affordable pieces of cookware of a high quality, or quality enough, that suffices for serious home cooks.

Any recommendations on something new on the market in the past couple years?

[annarborfoodie]

Any words of wisdom on which mid-level All-Clad line is best?

I am getting married next week and wanted to register for good cookware.

After reading the eG course on cookware, I decided to register at Amazon.com, so that I could get pieces from the Sitram Catering line. Well, apparently my parents' friends are afraid of the Internet, so two weeks ago I changed course and added All-Clad to my registry at the local department store. I chose the MasterChef 2 line, based on what I know. Was that the right way to go, or would I be better off with the Stainless? (I don't like the anodized exterior of the LTD line).

[Richard Kilgore]

I just read this thread -- good information! -- and wanted to bump it up to see if there are updates.  I need to replace some of my old stuff.  Two years later, are you all still as satisfied with your cookware?  Would you still make the same recommendations now?  I'm especially interested in your follow-up comments on the Chefmate from Target and other affordable pieces of cookware of a high quality, or quality enough, that suffices for serious home cooks.

Any recommendations on something new on the market in the past couple years?

←

I have been using Chefmate stock pots with clad bottoms, as well as a 2 1/2 qt tri-clad pan and skillet for a couple of years. Also a Chefmate 12" copper/aluminum clad skillet and in a similar import to the US from China, Tramontana, a 1 qt and 4 qt tri-clad pan. All work well, except that with so little experience using the 12" disk-bottom clad skillet I can't say too much about it.

But a heavier layer of aluminum in a 2 to 1 1/2 qt sauce pan would work better.

That said, if I had it to do again, except for the stock pots, I would go for Sitram. I'll add some pieces as I go. Evasee and 2 qt sauce pan being first on my list.

[mharpo]

All good questions. Push a crappy product here and you're likely to be dead meat. Our knowledgeable members would probably cut the product to shreds online when they saw it. On the other hand, get a good tool in the hands of a member who's pleased with the results and the price and you'll find it recommended all over. I imagine eGullet members to be the kind of people their friends all ask about what to buy and where to eat when it comes to food and dining. I think sales to eGullet members may be more important than the numbers might indicate. It's just a thought and you're right in pointing out that any offer would find competition in the posts by members of onlines sales. That kind of communication amomg members is certainly one of our strengths.

←

I've been giving thought to this idea, but I really hate to self promote - well, hate may be overstating things a bit. Anyway, we do offer special discounts to professional groups and I don't see why we shouldn't here. If it is not unethical, I'll put something together.

Couple of things, the thermal efficiency of stainless lined copper is not materially affected by the stainless. Sam points out that it is only .2mm thick which is, in our measurement system, .008". Thinner, I believe, than the tin lining.

Also, determining whether or not you need copper is like trying to decide if you need a Ferrari, or a commercial range, or a high def TV, etc. I could cook a very good meal with cast iron over a campfire, but I'd rather do it in my kitchen with really good cookwware. There are real benefits that contribute to the enjoyment factor considerably.

[doctorandchef]

I think Michael Chiarello did a rant against All Clad on his show before.

Personally the All-Clad pans have worked great for me both professionally and at home. I like the cheapest All-Clad i.e. the ones with the brushed steel exterior, as there really is no point having a nice and shiny pan on the outside other than esthetics, if you care about that at all. The performance will be the same.

I've also worked with Sitram pans before and they perform just as well, with round handles that make so much more sense. Plus their pots have lips on them.

Whoever designed the All-Clad pots should be shot..... how archaic it is for high-end cookware to not have a good pouring lip . Only their copper-clad ones have a lip, which leads me to believe that perhaps it's more difficult to manufacture pots with lips. I hope an All-Clad spokesperson can respond to this.

In any case All-Clad handles are really silly, they are not comfortable to hold nor are they stable. Ever have a hot saute pan flip over on you? Not amusing at all.

You can't really go wrong with either brand as they will last a lifetime unless you abuse your pans.

[Smithy]

I have All-Clad stainless (shiny exterior) saute pans, sauce pans, and braiser that I acquired, oh, 3 or 5 years ago. I wouldn't get the braiser again, knowing now what I know about braising (this pan is too light), but it's certainly pretty and makes a good serving piece or in-between-sizes saute pan when I need one. I'm happy with the saute pans and, given the limitations of my cooking, the sauce pans. (I cook on electric, so the expense of copper is overkill for me. I'm maybe a mid-level home cook, so there are likely some nuances of cookery that elude me and might otherwise matter for a better cook.) I can't speak to Master Chef. I haven't had problems with the handles on these All-Clads, but I don't do much real sauteeing where a good grip is essential for extended stretches. If I had it to do over again, I'd reread this entire thread and consider alternatives, but I've no complaint with the pieces I picked up - except, as noted above, the braiser.

I also didn't want the anodized aluminum. I have enough dishes already that can't go in the dishwasher; I certainly don't need a workhorse to be so fussy. It seems as though the brushed exterior had an issue like that, too? But now I'm not sure. Our pans hang on the walls, so aesthetics were a factor.

[Richard Kilgore]

Sitram Alert: I noticed that there is a discount coupon on Amazon for Kitchen items, excluding most well-known brands like All-Clad, but including Sitram. Amazon prices on Sitram are already lower than JBPrince.com which also has a Sitram sale going on. Plus the free shipping and also a $25 off coupon for Kitchen orders of $125 or more. The coupon is good until October 24th, if I recall correctly. Even though many of the Sitram Catering items are not in stock at this time, the coupon is still good and they ship them later when available.