Women Can't Cook

[mrsadm]

This is a bit of a departure from the direction this thread seems to be going, but nevertheless. . .

How much cooking people do, what kind of cooking people do, and how well they do it, can't really be discussed without taking the larger picture into consideration.  It is part of how the world has evolved in the past half-century or so.

My belief, which could be off, is that pre-WWII, people did a lot of home cooking, and were pretty good at it; they also tended to raise a lot of their own food.  Obviously, that's a pretty broad generalization, and your mileage may vary.

I was born in the 50's.  My memory is that everyone's mom cooked, although some did better than others.

In the 60's, when I was in grade school and junior high, there were only a few convenience products on the market, only a few fast-food places around, and restaurant dining was something most families did no more than about once a month, if even that.  If my friends' mothers worked, it was mainly part-time.  Divorce was all but unheard of.  "Nice" people did not do it.  I went to one Girl Scout meeting a week (I walked there from school, and walked home from there) and one dance lesson a week (we carpooled with friends).

In the 70's, my mother subscribed to the Time-Life series on cooking around the world, and I was fascinated, but could not try most of the recipes because the ingredients were just not available in our area.  At the same time, the number of convenience products were appearing on grocery store shelves, and fast-food restaurants were increasing in number.  Divorce became more prevalent, creating more one-parent families and more women who needed to work full-time.

In the 80's and on, a greater variety of produce began to appear in stores, along with a greater variety of convenience foods.  Women working full-time became more the norm, one-parent families became more common, and parents began to see themselves a facilitators of their children's futures, enrolling them in language courses, sports, etc., and becoming truly concerned about the schools their children got into, whether their children were 9 or 19.  Since then, ferrying children to and from extracurricular activities seems to have become a full-time job in some families.

Society has changed a lot since I was born.  But if we are to assert that fewer people are cooking, then what conclusion can we draw from the fresh fava beans, Swiss chard, 12 varieties of mushrooms, etc. etc. I saw in the produce department today when I went to pick up yellow peppers and basil?  Someone's using all this fresh produce, and even though this is Kansas, they're not feeding it to the cattle.  Perhaps it's just that people aren't cooking out of necessity that much anymore, but more out of interest, and as a hobby.  We just don't live in the same world we used to.  Can today's women cook?  Yes, and no.  One of my friends just learned a couple of years ago that the way to get her cake out of her bundt pan is to both grease and flour the pan, and I don't know how that information missed her, since I learned it as a child.  And after I perused the Swiss chard and decided I wouldn't have an opportunity to use it until next week, I went down the baking aisle, and found myself explaining to someone what baking powder is.  It's not a matter of can we or can we not cook.  It's just a different situation altogether.

←

I think you've hit the proverbial nail on the head, here; at least what you are saying jives with my own experience. I have a professional job as well as do my women friends and we are REALLY busy working long hours. Most of them can cook quite well but don't cook on a daily basis because there is no time or energy. However, cooking for holidays, for friends coming over, and weekend cooking to enjoy the experience is definitely popular. We go out and buy the exotic produce, olive oils, and other ingredients at today's supermarket for those occasions.

No one has remarked yet about the huge selection of cookbooks available today in your local bookstore. Why are they so popular? I think it's like the exotic produce - we are becomming hobby cooks.

[Irishgirl]

Honestly, the underhanded personal attacks need to stop.  They add nothing to the topic.  I think a little common courtesy goes a long way in a debate.

I'm sorry bryan if my post came off as a personal attack...which it wasn't. It was an explanation for WHY you're upset. The reason you are not upset about people in general cooking less, is that you have no use for men who cook less. That is why your focus is on women, which is as far as I am concerned, unjust and inaccurate.

If I may flatly state my beliefs for those who enjoy bashing them:

1) The average American or W. European woman now cook less than her forebearers.

2) The above-named group likely cares less about cooking than their forebearers for numerous personal and sociological reasons

3) Ramsay is correct in making the above observations.

4) It upsets me that women are choosing to cook less because I like people who cook

5) In my experience I have less respect for people who can't cook (yes this includes, but is not limited to, young women) because I am a judgemental individual and like to cook

1) The same can be said for men.

2) Yes, and the same for men.

3) Is this correct, or just stereotypical?

4) Do you like people who cook, or just women? Because you only SEEM upset about women.

5) Do you have less respect for people who can't cook, or those people who choose NOT to cook? Perhaps they don't enjoy cooking as much as you do. And respecting people's personal choices is what western society is all about...is it not? My husband HATES cooking. It's not that he can't...he can, and fairly well....But he does not enjoy it. Does it make me respect him less? No.

I learned a long time ago that judging people by your own personal standards, will only serve to frustrate you and make you miserable. I learned to keep my standards for myself.

These are not sexist beliefs.  Anyone is more than welcome to refute those, but to nitpick on the semantics of the word "hate" or to take quotes out of context is both immature and unproductive.  Again, the majority of posters, who also happen to see the truth in Ramsay's statement, reinforce the fact that my beliefs, except for possibly the last one, are not that outlandish.

You will find that on the internet, people will nitpick about anything and everything in order to understand better what it is you mean. I don't think that this is immature or unproductive.

To end: this is yet again, not a personal attack, just a different perspective.

Edited October 29, 2005 by Irishgirl (log)

[FabulousFoodBabe]

I'm SO enjoying this thread and how everyone's getting all up in a twist about it. As I said earlier, "Angela Hartnett." If Ramsay truly were a sexist, etc. etc.

Women used to refuse to learn to type because typing meant menial support jobs and, well, no self-respecting woman would want to do that. Cooking is the same way for a lot of people. Most of the "at home" mothers in my town have more household help than I, which includes housekeepers who cook for the family. Fear of food, fear of getting fat, fear of seeming out of control by enjoying more than a bite of dessert, is transferred to their kids. Once the kids get out and realize they have to eat something, they have NO idea how to feed themselves and wind up at Subway. That's what I've seen.

Ramsay is a genius and hilarious, too. Carry on, everyone!

[Carrot Top]

Angela Hartnett at the expense of his wife, perhaps.

But then maybe his wife loves this game too. One day "a schoolteacher" the next "someone who won't be allowed in MY expensive kitchen" and the next "a food editor of one of the top magazines".

Either she is getting a profession from his leavings and name and slyly moving herself into a place where she *will* demand respect from ones of his ilk - *or* she is someone with her own talents that must not mind her husband speaking of her in the ways he does because well *more money and fame for US, dearie!*.

But then again, maybe she does not like this game. I would not like to hear any husband of mine speak of me that way. But then again, ultimately she has the right to divorce him and walk away with a bundle. "All part of the game." What a truly distasteful game.

"Play the Game". I've actually heard that said by people who do these sorts of things for a living. (Edited to add: in corporate life - not in married life though sometimes it seems as rampant there too.)

To me it's an ugly phrase.

It removes "the players" from the rest of humanity, if the "players" have anything to say about it. It makes them bigger and better and richer by far - the Grand Winners who eat the little people by making the little people want to be like them in ways that will never, in any actuality, have any "real" impact on their lives. They will pay for cookbooks and try to fit the image and cook the foods (which is all well and fine if the offerings of such things are done in a manner where "the player" considers themselves an equal human being on an equal footing).

Some players do not consider themselves equal to their audiences. Could be that they *are* not - perhaps they *are* better at this and that, and certainly they are better at this thing called charisma.

But to then use that (whether it is done "playfully" or supposedly with the idea that they can *change* society with their doings) to denigrate a specific group (in this case "women") is not cute.

"At home Mom's" who live in the wealthier areas of the country *may* have all sorts of varieties of help to do their household tasks.

But most women do not.

There are still huge numbers of women who work at non-professional jobs out there. As there are men who do the same. These are the people that comprise the largest portion of our society, and these are the people that Ramsay is mocking.

Is that either a right or a kind thing to do?

Unless "doing the right thing" and "being kind" are out of style. They may just be.

They don't glitter as prettily as flashing knives and lack the bombastic excitement of loud swear words flung about with macho style. There just might not be money to be found in them and that's where it all ends up, doesn't it.

Edited October 29, 2005 by Carrot Top (log)

[rickster]

I've worked for one of the major food companies that people love to bash around here. Several years ago I went to one of their presentations on new product development. One of the biggest issues they were facing? All their research showed a a decline in cooking skills across the general population. It was not a question of willingness to go into the kitchen. It was an issue of people being unable to understand the simplest concepts in cooking to even follow the steps to prepare something that came in a package to begin with.

[Carrot Top]

Interesting point, rickster. I wonder if all the food companies are facing this problem or if it was one specific to that company due to "how the directions are written".

If language is not made very clear, people do not take the time to read it.

Lots of people have "no time".

[rickster]

All I can say is that the inability to understand directions was rising over time, which must be driven by a) a decline in the ability to write directions b) a decline in the ability to read directions or c) a decline in the ability to understand how to execute the directions.

This was one of only several data examples.

[Carrot Top]

Maybe if the directions had been voice-over'd by a celebrity chef on a television that had a TiVo attached to it so that the hands-on tearing apart of the package and dropping in boiling water could be seen a la minute set right in front of the stove it would have worked.

Edited October 29, 2005 by Carrot Top (log)

[Carrot Top]

More on our subject

[Ling]

Honestly, the underhanded personal attacks need to stop.  They add nothing to the topic.  I think a little common courtesy goes a long way in a debate.

If I may flatly state my beliefs for those who enjoy bashing them:

1) The average American or W. European woman now cook less than her forebearers.

2) The above-named group likely cares less about cooking than their forebearers for numerous personal and sociological reasons

3) Ramsay is correct in making the above observations.

4) It upsets me that women are choosing to cook less because I like people who cook

5) In my experience I have less respect for people who can't cook (yes this includes, but is not limited to, young women) because I am a judgemental individual and like to cook

These are not sexist beliefs.  Anyone is more than welcome to refute those, but to nitpick on the semantics of the word "hate" or to take quotes out of context is both immature and unproductive.  Again, the majority of posters, who also happen to see the truth in Ramsay's statement, reinforce the fact that my beliefs, except for possibly the last one, are not that outlandish.

Unless deborah, or Irishgirl, or carrottop, or anyone else can bring in pertinent information (perhaps a figure that dictate more women are cooking recreationally now than ever before, or something to that effect), I'm done here.  I feel I've outlined my point sensibly and have backed up my beliefs with pertinent anecdotal evidence.

←

Is that not an oxymoron?

So by following your "evidence" that many young women nowadays don't know how to cook, we have a friend who "hates you" (said in humour, of course) because your dinner sounds better than hers. And another friend who feels gratified that you've educated her about food through Jean-Georges' incredible skill in the kitchen. Those are pretty sweeping generalizations to extend to all of womankind. (Or even to "young women", as you've noted that this is your preferred company. )

Yes, I've said that I don't know many (or any) people my age who can cook, but I've never been to culinary school, and the last I've heard, enrollment is up. If I were in culinary school, I'm sure I'd have many friends (young women included) who love to cook. The fact that many young people don't seem to want to cook nowadays is indeed sad, but I don't find it any more "upsetting" when a young woman doesn't seem interested in learning.

Finally, are not the terms "home cook" or "baker" very much open to interpretation? Some people think that by opening a box of cake mix and tossing in a few ingredients, they are "baking". (Witness the new Duncan Hines commercials where you see a few women sitting around, extolling the genius of one lady who has the time to make a layer cake! With filling! And frosting!) I'm not saying they are right or wrong in thinking so, but the use of cake mixes (or other pre-made or partially made products, such as canned icings, mousse mixes, custard bases, etc.) do not figure into my understanding of what true baking entails. And of course, that is not to say my definition of baking or cooking is "correct", it's just what I believe.

And by that extension, did the previous generation really "cook" at a higher level than our generation today? I've seen some pretty horrifying concoctions from the '70s online. I would hope that society has moved up from there. I think the average person is certainly more educated about food, even if they don't know how to cook. They might not know how to do duck confit at home, but they sure as hell know how to order it at a restaurant! So really, I think that even if more people of our generation don't seem to be into cooking, it's a trade-off when people are more open to trying new things and buying locally-sourced, quality ingredients for their occasional forays into the kitchen.

Edited October 29, 2005 by Ling (log)

[ingridsf]

And by that extension, did the previous generation really "cook" at a higher level than our generation today? I've seen some pretty horrifying concoctions from the '70s online. I would hope that society has moved up from there. I think the average person is certainly more educated about food, even if they don't know how to cook. They might not know how to do duck confit at home, but they sure as hell know how to order it at a restaurant! So really, I think that even if more people of our generation don't seem to be into cooking, it's a trade-off when people are more open to trying new things and buying locally-sourced, quality ingredients for their occasional forays into the kitchen.

←

That's just it, IMO. I'm 40, my mom is mid-60's; some of the previous posters are a generation in back of me. All 3 generations have their own interpretations of what a "real cook" is. (There's certainly broad inter-generational variance as well, but that's another conversation.)

My mother considers herself a real cook; she prepared nearly all of our family's meals herself until I was 12, and she had to start working as a school-teacher. My father did/does cook, but although he taught me how to caramelize onions, he never took responsibility for cooking our meals. I was happy to begin cooking our dinners when my mother needed help.

What was my first menu? It was porkchops brushed with Kraft Catalina dressing and broiled; frozen french fries; and Birds-Eye frozen petit-poi peas. I was proud to get it all on the table hot. And you bet your sweet ass I was a real cook, even if I was using ingredients that would make an eG'er swoon, and not in a good way. My pork chops weren't dry, I'd salted the cooking water and used a lot of butter on the peas, and the fries were...okay they were just fries but they were up to my family's usual exacting standards.

Okay, my point. My mother says that by the standards of her mother, a farm-woman, she's not a real cook. It's not painful to her, just recognition that she's not dressing the chicken she roasts, canning fruit, or any number of cooking tasks that were ordinary to her mother. My mother, in contrast to me, bakes much better and more from scratch, and has a doctorate in gravy we should all envy.

I, compared to many contemporaries of both genders, would appear to know more at times. But you know what? Actually get us in a kitchen together and they so often wipe the floor with me on technique. I have a history of being "the cook," and they don't. It's self perception more often than not. And women, esp young women, still seem especially prone to down-playing their expertise and knowledge.

The word that still sticks out to me in, "Women can't cook," is "women." Even if it's true -- which I don't buy -- I think we notice so many men cooking because men cooking is still men playing against type. That we notice it so much is a factor that only emphasizes the cheap sexism of the claim.

[BryanZ]

Anecdotal evidence as an oxymoron??? An anecdote is simply a story, so I'm using my personal stories as evidence to back up my claims. That makes sense to me.

As has been said numerous times, no one claims that women can't cook by their nature. Thousands of years of anthropological evidence show that women traditionally do cook. It was the journalists who placed that headline on the article. If nothing else, it was the editors who came up the title who were trying to generate publicity.

Edited October 30, 2005 by BryanZ (log)

[ingridsf]

Is a friend to be looked down upon simply because he likes Kraft dinner? Should he look down on me simply because I don't understand hockey? I should hope true friendship is not based on something superficial.

←

I'm a judgemental person. There's not a much more I can say there that pertains to this topic, so I'll leave it at that.

I refuse to eat Safeway cakes.

←

Oh dearie dear.

No less a Big Hungry Boy than Calvin Trillin has enjoyed Kraft dinner. There's a very funny story he tells about having a craving for it after not tasting it for years. His wife, Alice, buys the old Blue Box and, after he stops her from grating fresh parm on it, consumes said product. Yet, it doesn't satisfy. It is only on the following day that discovers his real craving was for day-old Kraft dinner.

I myself have a taste Pepperidge Farm frozen turnovers. (Not when they're frozen, silly.) It doesn't stop me from appreciating non-PF turnovers. Any woman, or man, who can cook, i.e., make "real" turnovers, is welcome to prevent me from consuming PF turnovers by mailing me a supply of their superior product. Raspberry is my favorite kind. Thank you.

The thing about the Safeway cake reminded me of the thin line between discerning taste and rudeness. Granted, you're not obligated to accept every piece of food that's offered, but if a friend's birthday celebration had such a cake, of course I'd eat some. I'd turn it down if diabetes were an issue but that's different.

[Gul_Dekar]

I too am a college-aged individual who enjoys cooking and baking. I have never ever had foie gras, never eaten kobe beef or maybe encountered a meyer lemon at the grocery store. I cannot discern the difference between 'good' food and 'great' food. Yet, I think I can safely say I respect what food is, and what its most important purpose in life is - sustenance. If one cannot appreciate this simple fact, and would deliberately reject perfectly good food just because its not 'gourmet' enough, then its just plain hypocrisy to judge others because they choose to eat something you find 'unfit for your palate'.

And on a more relevant note, I do believe this whole 'women no longer cooking' thing is only an issue because many of us are still so ingrained with the patriarchal notion that women SHOULD know how to cook (and also vice versa about guys knowning how to cook...which leads us to accept that its ok/natural for a guy to not know how to cook and make a big hoo-hah when guys do). I personally think it's all just gender roles balancing itself out. We might eventually come to accepting it, and this whole issue would be just as irrelevant as people switching from Tide to Cheer.

Edited October 30, 2005 by Gul_Dekar (log)

[Ling]

Anecdotal evidence as an oxymoron???  An anecdote is simply a story, so I'm using my personal stories as evidence to back up my claims.  That makes sense to me.

←

Yes, you're right--an anecdote is a story. A story is not evidence.

[lesfen]

I personally think it's all just gender roles balancing itself out. We might eventually come to accepting it, and this whole issue would be just as irrelevant as people switching from Tide to Cheer.

←

Heh heh... awesome.

I just caulked and sealed my windows for winter while my husband played Madden. I'm heading over to the DIY site to post "Men Can't Winterize!!"

Why can't we ALL just settle on the fact that it's all about interest? People that aren't interested in cooking aren't going to cook... yet. In my group of 30-somethings, there are two of us that actually cook for the love of cooking. We seek it out. Magazines, gourmet markets, ethnic markets, cooking classes, etc. The others seek out good food. They know what's good and what isn't. They eat in fine restaurants. BUT, when it comes to entertaining or feeding their families they turn to ready made, take out, or Sandra Lee short cuts. They don't enjoy "cooking" and you know what... they don't HAVE to! You can look down your noses at people who don't cook as much as you do, but cooking is fast becoming a hobby, much like sewing. Are you going to give your friends a rash of shit because they can't sew a button on their jacket, mend a blowout, or hem their pants?! No! We live in an era of convenience and cooking may just be casualty of our time.

(Mental indulgence... foodie popping up in an episode of The Jetson's to give Jane Jetson a good tongue lashing for serving her family food pellets. )

As far as you youn'uns go, cut these girls some slack. Just because they're not cooking now, doesn't mean they won't. Jesus, when I was in my early twentys I was more concerned with crafting a bong out of a squash than I was with cooking the damn thing! You have your whole lives ahead of you. Simma down. If they know good food, they're already on the right track. My best friend in the whole world says to me on a monthly basis, "you know, when I settle down you're gonna have to teach me to cook." When she's ready, I'll be here.

As far as GR goes... who gives a shit? We really need to stop feeding these egomaniacs with reaction.

[ingridsf]

Jesus, when I was in my early twentys I was more concerned with crafting a bong out of a squash than I was with cooking the damn thing! 

←

Lesfen, you just may be the new Martha. "Baked squash," heh. Now quit bogarting the butternut.

[Corinna Dunne]

The show went out earlier this week. Ramsay is much more chilled than usual and looks like he's thoroughly enjoying the company of women! Comments from the UK Forum on this link:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=76767

His £500k kitchen looks great, beautiful house, beautiful wife and kids... who was it who said "there's no such thing as bad publicity"?

Joan Collins is the celeb next week which should be fun!

Edited October 30, 2005 by Corinna Dunne (log)

[Megan Blocker]

Jesus, when I was in my early twentys I was more concerned with crafting a bong out of a squash than I was with cooking the damn thing!

←

Priceless, Lesfen.

And by that extension, did the previous generation really "cook" at a higher level than our generation today? I've seen some pretty horrifying concoctions from the '70s online. I would hope that society has moved up from there. I think the average person is certainly more educated about food, even if they don't know how to cook. They might not know how to do duck confit at home, but they sure as hell know how to order it at a restaurant! So really, I think that even if more people of our generation don't seem to be into cooking, it's a trade-off when people are more open to trying new things and buying locally-sourced, quality ingredients for their occasional forays into the kitchen.

Good point, Ling - and well said.

[BryanZ]

Over the weekend I crafted another long post in reference to some of the interesting points gul_dekar brought up. But, alas, it was somehow lost (or maybe I just hit preview instead of post. Regardless, that's water under the bridge.

But I did think of something recently that's not directly related to this thread's headline but deals with similar implications. What do women think of the trend "Men Aren't Chivalrous". In other words, I think it's hard to deny that while women have made strides toward complete equality in society, men have also become less chivalrous in the traditional sense. Do women on this board see it as a bad thing that men aren't as willing to hold open doors and pay for dates?

I'm not judging people here, but that type of traditional behavior is inherently sexist and reveals many of the double-standards in current gender roles and relations. Is it okay to complain that men don't treat women like "ladies"?

This isn't a rant, but something I'm honestly curious about. I kind of think it's sad that chivalry is on the decline, though I also feel that women should be the literal equals of men. Just some thoughts on how issues of sexism brought up here can be applied outside of the food world.

[Tess]

But I did think of something recently that's not directly related to this thread's headline but deals with similar implications.  What do women think of the trend "Men Aren't Chivalrous".

←

I'd say it's about as sexist as the "women can't cook" one. I mean, it's really idiotic to complain about things like men not paying for dates. Women should be equal, period.

On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with everybody being generous and helpful. I'm a woman; I hold doors open for people if it seems like it will help and I pay for people's meals. It's my pleasure to do it.

[Pontormo]

Yes, I agree, we're really starting to get off topic, here and what was fascinating to me last week is starting to run its course.

Bryan, it sounds as if you did not anticipate some of the reactions you have received to your posts here and have a number of sincere questions that the thread engendered. (Sorry.)

I encourage you to consider taking one elective in Women's Studies or Gender Studies some time in the near future if you're not graduating in December. Duke University's press is well known for its publications in the field and one of the best students I ever taught abroad was a double-major in Women's Studies and ???? (I forget if it was Government or a science ) at Duke. I have good friends whose son just graduated summa from the University of Toronto. One of his biggest fans is the professor who taught a class in Women's Studies where he was the only brave male student (this should not be the case, but sadly often is). He got an A+ and worked on a research project related to his major.

[Milagai]

I heartily second Pontormo's suggestion, as it will clarify to you as no

amount of internet postings can why the term "chivalrous"

is outdated, and is rooted in a specific history of gender and

class bias... which is why it makes people's teeth grind nowadays.

Just plain common courtesy however is always appreciated.....

and is only tangentially related to chivalry.....

Milagai

[BryanZ]

Just plain common courtesy however is always appreciated.....

and is only tangentially related to chivalry.....

←

I think that's a good way to put it. But I was just remarking it could be hypocritical for a woman to believe in the old precepts of chivalry while embracing her inherent rights to equality.

[Tess]

I think that's a good way to put it.  But I was just remarking it could be hypocritical for a woman to believe in the old precepts of chivalry while embracing her inherent rights to equality.

It wouldn't just be hypocritical; it would be blindingly stupid. If you ever meet a woman who takes that position, you might want to address it with her.